Discussion : What about making trainer aircraft like C-101 / L-39 /etc... Accessible if only the instructor bought it ?

[Aigle2]

Hello. 

I wanted to have the opinion of the community on this specific topic. 
I'm not talking about "combat multicrew planes" like F-14/F-15E/F-4E, or helicopters, only the trainers.

I feel like trainer aircraft are a must have to learn DCS to any new player. However, new players often aren't that willng to invest in a full fidelity module which will only be used for their training course, especially when they already have to buy hardware, maps, and "main" modules. 

Without pilots to form on trainers, even instructors don't have any incentive to buy trainer aircraft for this specific task. 

My opinion is instructors owning trainer aircrafts should allow other pilots to join them without owning the module. 
It would IMHO stimulate the incentive to buy those trainer aircraft if you often train beginners, which would over-compensate an hypothetical sale regression if beginners aren't buying the module anymore because not needed. 

To be clearer, I think that : 
- It would help the community
- Less beginners would buy them
- More instructors would buy them, so it might be worthwile even from a business point of view.

What are your opinions on the subject guys ? 

Aigle2

Edited November 21, 2022 by Aigle2

[razo+r]

I'd say most new players to DCS will go straight to the F-18 or F-16, as trainer aircraft simply do not have enough guided ammunition or even not enough ammunition in general for them. They want to clear out a whole battlefield by themself, they don't really want to learn how to fly before being able to obliterate anything. This is for the average new player. Of course it may look different if someone wants to join a virtual squadron and actually learn how to fly, but those are probably so few people. 

Then there's also the fact that majority of DCS players are playing single player, so no multicrew required. These two points probably render this suggestion or wish useless or not profitable.

But I guess for the few people who actually fly with trainers and at the same time also teach new players, that would definitly be a welcome change.

[SharpeXB]

A new player doesn’t need to train on a trainer aircraft module. They can simply teach themselves on any aircraft they have in DCS. The motivation that I imagine drives most people is simply getting the plane that interest them the most. Usually this is going to be a combat aircraft. 
And the makers of the DCS trainer modules can’t just give those away for free. 

Edited November 23, 2022 by SharpeXB

[Aigle2]

22 minutes ago, razo+r said:

I'd say most new players to DCS will go straight to the F-18 or F-16, as trainer aircraft simply do not have enough guided ammunition or even not enough ammunition in general for them. They want to clear out a whole battlefield by themself, they don't really want to learn how to fly before being able to obliterate anything. This is for the average new player. Of course it may look different if someone wants to join a virtual squadron and actually learn how to fly, but those are probably so few people. 

Then there's also the fact that majority of DCS players are playing single player, so no multicrew required. These two points probably render this suggestion or wish useless or not profitable.

But I guess for the few people who actually fly with trainers and at the same time also teach new players, that would definitly be a welcome change.

I would say the opposite in that case. There is nothing to lose in that case. 

I was talking indeed about new players joining existing groups / virtual squadrons. 

Such changes would also promote thos gameplay experience I believe.

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

A new player doesn’t need to train on a trainer aircraft module. They can simply teach themselves on any aircraft they have in DCS. The motivation that I imagine drives most people is simply getting the plane that interest them the most. Usually this is going to be a combat aircraft. 
And the makers of the DCS trainer modules can just give those away for free. 

I fully disagree with this statement. In our group, we had cases of completely new players who started by fly by wire aircrafts without basic notions of piloting, it ended up badly. We had to go through trainer course to really make them progress, and it was really useful. 

[SharpeXB]

31 minutes ago, Aigle2 said:

I fully disagree with this statement. In our group, we had cases of completely new players who started by fly by wire aircrafts without basic notions of piloting, it ended up badly. We had to go through trainer course to really make them progress, and it was really useful. 

For better or worse I’m sure most people just go straight to the plane they want. Funny I’m going to try and teach someone DCS over the holiday here and those thoughts occurred to me. But I wouldn’t coach someone into learning two aircraft when the one they want is the Hornet. But the bottom line is Devs can’t really give away free modules. 

[cfrag]

1 hour ago, Aigle2 said:

I feel like trainer aircraft are a must have to learn DCS to any new player.

It would be nice. But I think that there is ample evidence that a trainer aircraft is not required ("must have"). Neither is getting a propeller rating before getting into a jet. The vast majority of players in DCS can get by just fine without trainer aircraft (and I posit that the vast majority have. Did you train on a trainer?). Also, from experience, let me tell you that dual-training in a game environment like DCS is an experience most gamers will not cherish; most players prefer to immediately jump behind the stick and try their own, they want things that go boom. Trainer aircraft are mostly for enthusiasts (I have them all, and love them all. Most of my friends - not so much. But most of my friends aren't as enthusiastic about aviation as I am). An hour as student to them feels like an hour lost that they could have better spent dropping ordnance on some hapless baddie. They couldn't care less about correctly executing 2 minute turns or missed approach procedures. 

1 hour ago, Aigle2 said:

My opinion is instructors owning trainer aircrafts should allow other pilots to join them without owning the module. 

While I agree on that, I'd even go a step further: any crew should not be required to own the module they are crewing. But DCS doesn't roll that way, and that's that. Maybe some fine day in the future.

1 hour ago, Aigle2 said:

It would IMHO stimulate the incentive to buy those trainer aircraft if you often train beginners

It would not, for the simple reason that even if trainers where available to students for free, most game-centric simmers would still forego the trainer and jump directly into their own cockpit and rough it out. On the other hand, most of those who do enjoy training in a trainer would exactly be the kind of people who would also buy that model - so a free seat strongly dis-incentivizes trainer purchases. I can understand ED's logic there. 

I fly trainers for the simple reason that they are beautifully crafted modules. That MB339? Sheer beauty. The C101? A joy to fly. The Albatros? Feels like home. Fly any of them on a pvp server and you are cannon fodder.

And that why trainers are pretty much solo planes: nobody wants to be student, and on pvp servers they are target practice.

[draconus]

On 11/21/2022 at 5:23 PM, Aigle2 said:

- Less beginners would buy them
- More instructors would buy them, so it might be worthwile even from a business point of view.

There's always more beginners than instructors so it would actually hurt trainer aricraft sales.

Look, the trainers exist because it's cheaper and safer to go through the learning stages IRL. None of that is a concern in a simulator although you can simulate that process in DCS if you wish.

Most trainers in DCS have alternative version or options for light attack and are mostly used in this role actually or for aerobatics instead. I agree they are bought mostly by enthusiasts which goes exactly the same way as with other modules - if you like the aircraft you buy it.

And finally the Free Trial offer voids any wishes for a free aircraft.

On 11/21/2022 at 5:58 PM, SharpeXB said:

And the makers of the DCS trainer modules can just give those away for free. 

What?! Why would they?

[SharpeXB]

6 hours ago, draconus said:

What?! Why would they?

I meant to say can’t