Ground attack loadouts discussion

[G.J.S]

On 12/16/2022 at 5:15 PM, Bozon said:

Oh boy… I would love to try 21 miniguns on my F-4E 

Let’s all 21 rip . . . . . And fall out of the sky.

The muzzle horsepower would far exceed the engines.

[Bozon]

46 minutes ago, G.J.S said:

Let’s all 21 rip . . . . . And fall out of the sky.

The muzzle horsepower would far exceed the engines.

Lets see:

bullet mass is about 10g, muzzle velocity is 850 m/s, rate of fire up to 6,000 rpm - numbers to my understanding.

Mass multiplied by velocity is momentum, divided by time is force, so in MKS units:

F per gun = 10e-3 * 850 * 6000/60 = 850 N average force.

That is already impressive as it is equivalent to a weight of 85 kg. Now multiply by 21…

F for 21 = 17,850 N = 4000 lbs force

That is truly a lot and will slow the plane down, but it is no where near the thrust of the engines. I am more afraid that the number of bullets DCS will have to track will crash the software…

[G.J.S]

1 hour ago, Bozon said:

Lets see:

bullet mass is about 10g, muzzle velocity is 850 m/s, rate of fire up to 6,000 rpm - numbers to my understanding.

Mass multiplied by velocity is momentum, divided by time is force, so in MKS units:

F per gun = 10e-3 * 850 * 6000/60 = 850 N average force.

That is already impressive as it is equivalent to a weight of 85 kg. Now multiply by 21…

F for 21 = 17,850 N = 4000 lbs force

That is truly a lot and will slow the plane down, but it is no where near the thrust of the engines. I am more afraid that the number of bullets DCS will have to track will crash the software…

Fired round mass of 10 grams? From an air rifle maybe.
Fired Round average is about 100 grams, and muzzle velocity was just over 1000M sec, SAPHEI a little higher.

 

I distinctly remember scrubbing knots many off with a prolonged burst.

 

edit: just realised you are on about 7.62 NATO. 
I meant Vulcan rounds.

Edited December 17, 2022 by G.J.S

[Bozon]

51 minutes ago, G.J.S said:

edit: just realised you are on about 7.62 NATO. 

I meant Vulcan rounds.

The suggestion by Aussie_Mantis was that the F-4E/D could theoretically carry 21 SUU-11. From what I googled, the gun inside that pod is GAU-2 (M134 in US Military) which fires 7.62mm rouds. The numbers I pulled are for that gun.

6000 rounds per minute from 21 guns is 2100 rounds per SECOND. let it rip!

[G.J.S]

11 minutes ago, Bozon said:

The suggestion by Aussie_Mantis was that the F-4E/D could theoretically carry 21 SUU-11. From what I googled, the gun inside that pod is GAU-2 (M134 in US Military) which fires 7.62mm rouds. The numbers I pulled are for that gun.

6000 rounds per minute from 21 guns is 2100 rounds per SECOND. let it rip!

And the ejected brass would carpet a huge swathe of enemy trench troops below the aircraft 

[Elf1606688794]

On 12/16/2022 at 2:43 AM, Aussie_Mantis said:

Thanks for the answers! If you ain't ammo, you ain't #@$&!

was anyone insane or cheeky enough to slap bombs on the sparrow recesses using the MAU-12 adapter for the ALQ-131 ECM pod?

Also, to be clear, you never slapped AIM-9Ls on your F-4Es? I was under the impression limas were loaded past ~'89-91 in the sunset years of the Phantom.

 

Also, could the F-4E load or not load HARMs or Standard ARM on the wing hardpoints?

 

First, no. I can barely imagine the kind of trouble you'd get into for doing something like that.

 

Second, no. I personally never saw an AIM-9L until I went to Elemendorf and started working on F-15A/B's. I worked on the Phantom for roughly a year and a half during 81/82/83.

 

We didn't even load Shrikes at SJ AFB because SEAD wasn't part of our mission, that mission belonged to the F-4G Wild Weasel's. I'm not saying they couldn't be loaded just that at SJ AFB we didn't.

[Aussie_Mantis]

17 hours ago, Elf1606688794 said:

First, no. I can barely imagine the kind of trouble you'd get into for doing something like that.

 

Second, no. I personally never saw an AIM-9L until I went to Elemendorf and started working on F-15A/B's. I worked on the Phantom for roughly a year and a half during 81/82/83.

 

We didn't even load Shrikes at SJ AFB because SEAD wasn't part of our mission, that mission belonged to the F-4G Wild Weasel's. I'm not saying they couldn't be loaded just that at SJ AFB we didn't.

"So we already use an adapter for the ALQ-131, right?"

"Yes?"

"And it can technically carry bombs too, right?"

"Where is this going?"

"Can you put bombs on the sparrow nacelles?"

"Sir, I can't do that."

"Chiefy, I don't pay you to think. I want that MAU-12 Special Weapons Adapter on my Sparrow Nacelle, and I want it rigged to carry a Mark 82. I don't care what balls you have to break to do it, but I want it done now."

"Sir, you're the reason why half the squadron maintenance staff have left. I'm only here because my EAS date is in three weeks."

Is my list of ordnance posted on page 1 accurate, incidentally?

 

 

[Elf1606688794]

2 hours ago, Aussie_Mantis said:

"So we already use an adapter for the ALQ-131, right?"

"Yes?"

"And it can technically carry bombs too, right?"

"Where is this going?"

"Can you put bombs on the sparrow nacelles?"

"Sir, I can't do that."

"Chiefy, I don't pay you to think. I want that MAU-12 Special Weapons Adapter on my Sparrow Nacelle, and I want it rigged to carry a Mark 82. I don't care what balls you have to break to do it, but I want it done now."

"Sir, you're the reason why half the squadron maintenance staff have left. I'm only here because my EAS date is in three weeks."

Is my list of ordnance posted on page 1 accurate, incidentally?

 

 

That scenario would never have happened. Period.

[Aussie_Mantis]

5 hours ago, Elf1606688794 said:

That scenario would never have happened. Period.

It's still funny to think about. I know that it'd never happen, but still. Somehow, the thought of a crew chief having to deal with his pilot coming up with the most stupid, hare-brained schemes to put *thing* on his aircraft amuses me a great deal.

[Elf1606688794]

On 12/10/2022 at 2:17 PM, WinterH said:

Those are upgraded variants, afaik Israeli Kurnass, and Turkish 2020-Terminator, maybe South Koreans too not sure. But not the variants we are getting.

Ours should have:

- AGM-65s, perhaps up to AGM-65D even.

- All sorts of iron bombs up to Mk84s. Multiple modes of delivery with a weird funky old-school bombing computer in the first variant, and a more digital-computer driven and CCIP capable one in the DMAS variant.

- Cluster bombs, but don't remember if it's Rockeyes only or are there other variants too.

- Rockets

- AGM-45 Shrike (super-craptacular) anti-radar missiles

- GBU-8 TV guided bombs in the first variant, and much more improved GBU-15 TV guided bomb with man-in-loop capabilities with a pod in the DMAS variant

- GBU-12 and GBU-10 LGBs

- Probably M61 gunpods too but not entirely sure

- Pave Spike day time only targeting pod for first variant, and Pave Tack FLIR capable gigantic targeting pod for DMAS variant. Pave Spike is manual tracking only, no target locking/tracking, but Pave Tack does have auto tracking too afaik (could be wrong not fully sure).

E models technically could carry 5 gun pods (1, 2, 5, 8, 9) but I never saw a gun pod outside of tech school.

Rockets were a no-go on the Phantom due to an issue with a plastic piece on the back end of the rocket that came off when it was fired and left the tube. The Phantom liked to eat those plastic pieces and since they damaged the turbine blades the 2.75" rockets were banned for use on the Phantom.

Cluster bombs, we loaded Mk 20 Rockeyes and SUU-30's.

The 333rd, 334th, 335th squadrons had a commitment for laser guided and tv guided bombs but the 336th didn't as it was the only squadron that didn't have the ARN-101 system. 

[Aussie_Mantis]

19 minutes ago, Elf1606688794 said:

E models technically could carry 5 gun pods (1, 2, 5, 8, 9) but I never saw a gun pod outside of tech school.

Rockets were a no-go on the Phantom due to an issue with a plastic piece on the back end of the rocket that came off when it was fired and left the tube. The Phantom liked to eat those plastic pieces and since they damaged the turbine blades the 2.75" rockets were banned for use on the Phantom.

Cluster bombs, we loaded Mk 20 Rockeyes and SUU-30's.

The 333rd, 334th, 335th squadrons had a commitment for laser guided and tv guided bombs but the 336th didn't as it was the only squadron that didn't have the ARN-101 system. 

Why are LAU-3s and their associated launchers still in the dash-ones then? You'd think if you couldn't use them, they wouldn't be left in the dash-one...

Edited December 19, 2022 by Aussie_Mantis

[Elf1606688794]

1 hour ago, Aussie_Mantis said:

Why are LAU-3s and their associated launchers still in the dash-ones then? You'd think if you couldn't use them, they wouldn't be left in the dash-one...

 

Yeah well, this IS the government we're talking about, the same organization that paid hundreds of dollars for a $15 hammer.

[G.J.S]

1 hour ago, Aussie_Mantis said:

Why are LAU-3s and their associated launchers still in the dash-ones then? You'd think if you couldn't use them, they wouldn't be left in the dash-one...

 

Likely leave them in as a “last ditch” load, if sh1t and fan have met, aircraft take on a “throw-away” quality.

[WinterH]

3 hours ago, Elf1606688794 said:

E models technically could carry 5 gun pods (1, 2, 5, 8, 9) but I never saw a gun pod outside of tech school.

Rockets were a no-go on the Phantom due to an issue with a plastic piece on the back end of the rocket that came off when it was fired and left the tube. The Phantom liked to eat those plastic pieces and since they damaged the turbine blades the 2.75" rockets were banned for use on the Phantom.

Cluster bombs, we loaded Mk 20 Rockeyes and SUU-30's.

The 333rd, 334th, 335th squadrons had a commitment for laser guided and tv guided bombs but the 336th didn't as it was the only squadron that didn't have the ARN-101 system. 

 thx for sharing your experience with us!!

I was just listing what I remember from reading manuals, which still listed rockets as far as I recall. I wonder what will Heatblur decide to do with them, leave them in, leave them out, or leave them in but model a risk of engine surge from using them etc. I personally love using unguided rockets but I also love authenticity, so would be happy either way I guess, it's not like we would be lacking for other air to ground weapon options without rockets, as Phantom has an ample choice of them anyway!

[Aussie_Mantis]

2 hours ago, Elf1606688794 said:

Yeah well, this IS the government we're talking about, the same organization that paid hundreds of dollars for a $15 hammer.

$1280 on a metal cup. Fair enough.

 

Were Zunis also on the <profanity>list or were they off?

[Elf1606688794]

We never loaded Zuni's and I don't recall if they were in the T.O. either.

[G.J.S]

21 minutes ago, Elf1606688794 said:

We never loaded Zuni's and I don't recall if they were in the T.O. either.

Weren’t Zuni’s a USN/USMC weapon? Always associated them with that rocket type anyway.

[Elf1606688794]

2 hours ago, G.J.S said:

Weren’t Zuni’s a USN/USMC weapon? Always associated them with that rocket type anyway.

After a quick internet search it seems that the Zuni rocket was used by at least the US Army, US Navy (including being credited with the only A-4 Skyhawk kill of a MiG during Vietnam), Pakistan and Australia. I looked at 3 articles and none of them mentioned the US Air Force. 

[G.J.S]

27 minutes ago, Elf1606688794 said:

After a quick internet search it seems that the Zuni rocket was used by at least the US Army, US Navy (including being credited with the only A-4 Skyhawk kill of a MiG during Vietnam), Pakistan and Australia. I looked at 3 articles and none of them mentioned the US Air Force. 

Yeah. Never saw them on USAF birds, but have seen them mounted on naval types, and mainly USMC aviation. 

[Aussie_Mantis]

23 hours ago, Elf1606688794 said:

We never loaded Zuni's and I don't recall if they were in the T.O. either.

weird, they're not in the TO... I thought they'd be there for sure.  

Maybe some unofficial use in Vietnam but other than that I'm on the rocks about it

[commiccannon]

On 12/15/2022 at 11:38 PM, Aussie_Mantis said:

... you're a. insane or b. Australian, much like the F-111's full bombload of all 8 hardpoints with 500lbs bombs on MERs?

 

You think Aussies dont fit into the insane category?

 

[Aussie_Mantis]

5 hours ago, commiccannon said:

You think Aussies dont fit into the insane category?

 

We don't. Insanity is by definition uncontrolled. Controlled Insanity is by definition Australian.

Edited December 22, 2022 by Aussie_Mantis

[Bremspropeller]

You'll see a ton of Zunis on the USMC birds, so it can't be an airframe-limitation. That also includes funny configurations with the twin-launchers (as opposed to the quad-pods).

Osprey "USMC F-4 Phantom units of the Vietnam War" is a great source here. Page 58 shows a Block 27 Bravo of VMFA-314 in an eighteen-Zuni loadout, which includes four quads and a single twin-launcher on the RH inboard Sidewinder rail. Seems to have been a field mod.

It's more of a mission-thing in my book. The USAF was a bit less into CAS (with the Phantom) than were the Marines.

 

[Aussie_Mantis]

29 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

You'll see a ton of Zunis on the USMC birds, so it can't be an airframe-limitation. That also includes funny configurations with the twin-launchers (as opposed to the quad-pods).

Osprey "USMC F-4 Phantom units of the Vietnam War" is a great source here. Page 58 shows a Block 27 Bravo of VMFA-314 in an eighteen-Zuni loadout, which includes four quads and a single twin-launcher on the RH inboard Sidewinder rail. Seems to have been a field mod.

It's more of a mission-thing in my book. The USAF was a bit less into CAS (with the Phantom) than were the Marines.

 

I don't really think they were "a bit less into CAS" at all. USAF birds flew down south on CAS missions just like the rest... I think I still haven't managed to find images of USAF Phantoms with Zunis.

[Bremspropeller]

9 minutes ago, Aussie_Mantis said:

I don't really think they were "a bit less into CAS" at all. USAF birds flew down south on CAS missions just like the rest... I think I still haven't managed to find images of USAF Phantoms with Zunis.

We'd have to break down missions and percentages flown by the USAF in country, but I believe the Huns were very heavily used for CAS and for relatively long, once it was clear their gig wouldn't be up north. The Phantoms mostly flew out of Thailand or did have special roles down south. There might have been a few outfits that concentrated on CAS, but I think that was only late/ later in the war.