w.i.p Attitude Hold Mode doesnt engage in Hover.

[[DE] T-Bone]

Hi,

it looks like the ATT hold function is faulty, it cannot be activated in hover. In the track file I try to activate it first in hover (ALT hold works), which does not work. However, it can be activated in forward flight, but no longer in the second hover.

 

Reproducible with hot/cold-start as in sp/mp.

 

Greetings

T-Bone

ATT_Hold_bug.zip

[corbu1]

vor 43 Minuten schrieb [Eule-22] T-Bone:

Hi,

it looks like the ATT hold function is faulty, it cannot be activated in hover. In the track file I try to activate it first in hover (ALT hold works), which does not work. However, it can be activated in forward flight, but no longer in the second hover.

 

Reproducible with hot/cold-start as in sp/mp.

 

Greetings

T-Bone

ATT_Hold_bug.zip 982.24 kB · 1 Download

Noticed that as well and reported in another thread.

In hover I was able to activate ATT HOLD after press and release FTR before. I guess this is a bug…

[Floyd1212]

I tried your track and resumed control and was able to engage ATT Hold.

I did trim first, which is my usual procedure, so if that is now a requirement, that might explain it.

[admiki]

Right now you have to trim and then you can engage attitude hold. But it is a bug, you should be able to activate attitude hold regardless of correlation between cyclic and trimmed attitude

[BIGNEWY]

8 hours ago, admiki said:

Right now you have to trim and then you can engage attitude hold. But it is a bug, you should be able to activate attitude hold regardless of correlation between cyclic and trimmed attitude

Edit, 

This is a bug, and the team will look at tweaking in a future patch.

thanks

[[DE] T-Bone]

23 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

I tried your track and resumed control and was able to engage ATT Hold.

I did trim first, which is my usual procedure, so if that is now a requirement, that might explain it.

I tried it again and trimmed before activating the ATT Hold, this then worked again. However, the SAS started to oscillate the helicopter.

You can see this behaviour from 08:09:45 in the second track file.

 

7 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Edit, 

This is a bug, and the team will look at tweaking in a future patch.

thanks

@BIGNEWY
I have never experienced this oscillation before. Maybe the behaviour in the second track file will help you tweak and adjust the modes.

atthold_oszilliation.zip

Edited December 20, 2022 by [Eule-22] T-Bone

[WWSmith]

On 12/20/2022 at 4:03 PM, [Eule-22] T-Bone said:

I tried it again and trimmed before activating the ATT Hold, this then worked again. However, the SAS started to oscillate the helicopter.

I've been having this trouble since the last patch, too. I trim the heli so that I can keep it in a hover with just an occasional light touch on the stick, engage ATT hold, let go of the stick, and it instantly starts to drift. This can be a growing oscillation, like you describe, or a growing drift in one direction. In about 3 hours of trying, only once did I get it to work like it used to, and that was a random occurrence which I haven't been able to reproduce. I'm using FFB, by the way, in case that might be relevant.

I just attached a track. I take off, hover, engage the attitude hold, and let go of the stick, at which point the Apache just goes and does its own thing.

ApacheBug.trk

Edited December 22, 2022 by WWSmith
Uploaded Track

[WWSmith]

I should add that attitude hold isn't working any better in forward flight, either. In fact, I suspect that it isn't doing anything at all, and that the time I got it to work in a hover was actually just a case of really good trimming on my part. It used to work fine for me, and the Mi-24's autopilot hover mode still works, so something has changed with the Apache. Since not everyone is experiencing this, maybe it's related to force feedback. Just a thought.

[Floyd1212]

Double check and make sure you don’t have another controller that defaulted an axis to pedals or cyclic. That seems to happen on occasion when a patch is applied.

You can also try changing your trimming mode to Central or Instant for a test run, to see if it behaves as it should. 

[admiki]

I did a test today before the patch  and hover hold was pretty good. Forward flight had some weird behavior, both in attitude hold and manual flight.

[WWSmith]

I've wasted at least 3 hours trying to troubleshoot this, and I tried various combinations of trim mode, curves, and deadzones to no avail. (Found it harder to trim with deadzones, in fact.) I didn't think to check if any bindings got screwed up, because in the past that's always been something really dramatic, like collective=roll axis, whereas right now the Apache flies fine. Anyway, I'm at work now, so I'll check that tomorrow just in case.

[hannibal]

2 hours ago, WWSmith said:

I've wasted at least 3 hours trying to troubleshoot this, and I tried various combinations of trim mode, curves, and deadzones to no avail. (Found it harder to trim with deadzones, in fact.) I didn't think to check if any bindings got screwed up, because in the past that's always been something really dramatic, like collective=roll axis, whereas right now the Apache flies fine. Anyway, I'm at work now, so I'll check that tomorrow just in case.

auto hover is a known bug, @BIGNEWY is aware.. i hope.

i am also experience this today as well.. basically when Altitude hold  is engaged, it stays ON as long as you dont go +/- 2 ticks of the vertical velocity indicator... before it used to be +/- 10 ticks..  

Edited December 23, 2022 by hannibal

[admiki]

4 hours ago, hannibal said:

auto hover is a known bug, @BIGNEWY is aware.. i hope.

i am also experience this today as well.. basically when Altitude hold  is engaged, it stays ON as long as you dont go +/- 2 ticks of the vertical velocity indicator... before it used to be +/- 10 ticks..  

 

You sure about that? I don't think altitude hold has enough servo authority to compensate for 1000 ft/min climb/descent?

IIRC, altitude hold will only engage if your vertical speed is <100 ft/min.

 

7 hours ago, WWSmith said:

I've wasted at least 3 hours trying to troubleshoot this, and I tried various combinations of trim mode, curves, and deadzones to no avail. (Found it harder to trim with deadzones, in fact.) I didn't think to check if any bindings got screwed up, because in the past that's always been something really dramatic, like collective=roll axis, whereas right now the Apache flies fine. Anyway, I'm at work now, so I'll check that tomorrow just in case.

I tried it after latest patch. While there is still a problem of needing to trim before engaging  hold mode, it now works fine both in hover and in forward flight.

[WWSmith]

14 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

Double check and make sure you don’t have another controller that defaulted an axis to pedals or cyclic. That seems to happen on occasion when a patch is applied.

You can also try changing your trimming mode to Central or Instant for a test run, to see if it behaves as it should. 

I just checked, and there was nothing assigned to pitch, roll, and yaw axes except my stick and pedals.

9 hours ago, hannibal said:

auto hover is a known bug, @BIGNEWY is aware.. i hope.

i am also experience this today as well.. basically when Altitude hold  is engaged, it stays ON as long as you dont go +/- 2 ticks of the vertical velocity indicator... before it used to be +/- 10 ticks..  

 

I never said anything about altitude hold, although I noticed that it might disengage more easily than it used to. It's attitude hold that's not working for me. It engages and stays engaged, but doesn't actually do anything to hold attitude.

14 hours ago, admiki said:

I did a test today before the patch  and hover hold was pretty good. Forward flight had some weird behavior, both in attitude hold and manual flight.

What controllers are you using? Given that I've had trouble with fixed-wing autopilots and FFB, I have a feeling that FFB is the issue here, too, but I can't figure out a solution. With fixed-wing, the solution is to set a small deadzone, but that doesn't work with helicopter force trimming.

[admiki]

1 hour ago, WWSmith said:

What controllers are you using? Given that I've had trouble with fixed-wing autopilots and FFB, I have a feeling that FFB is the issue here, too, but I can't figure out a solution. With fixed-wing, the solution is to set a small deadzone, but that doesn't work with helicopter force trimming.

VKB stick on extension with base with clutches, so it mimicks force trim.

I completely missed that you posted track file.

TBH, I have no idea what is causing your issues. You are pretty stable when you activate hold. What is your trimmer mode for this track file?

Edited December 23, 2022 by admiki

[WWSmith]

I was using instant mode in that track, which is what I use in all helis, but center mode has the same result. If I was having trouble trimming it, I'd understand, but it flies great, and I have no trouble hovering on my own. I can't say that this is exactly game-breaking, because I only use attitude hold when I need to work with the displays, and I can always switch to the CP/G seat and have George take over as pilot, it's just annoying that it's broken. There's no way that I'm rolling back to the previous version, either, because the update that broke the Apache's attitude hold for me also fixed the Tomcat AI freeze bug, which had been a major thorn in my side for many months, so I can live with occasionally handing the controls to George.

[hannibal]

2 hours ago, WWSmith said:

I never said anything about altitude hold, although I noticed that it might disengage more easily than it used to. It's attitude hold that's not working for me. It engages and stays engaged, but doesn't actually do anything to hold attitude.

me and my buddy are experiencing problems with altitude hold. which it disengages alot more easily than it used to.

so something is aloof.

prior to last 2 patches, it was workable for us.

[[DE] T-Bone]

22 minutes ago, hannibal said:

me and my buddy are experiencing problems with altitude hold. which it disengages alot more easily than it used to.

so something is aloof.

prior to last 2 patches, it was workable for us.

Can you please create a separate thread for the ALT error and upload a track file? Then it won't get lost here and can be dealt with explicitly.

That would be great 

[Cyborg71]

Is it possible this attitude hold problem is related to ffb settings in game. 

I was experiencing no attitude (hover hold) issues prior to update.

I have tried 2 set ups with 2 different results.

I have a hydraulic komodo cyclic replicating force trim (set as ffb no springs) Hover hold possible prior to update. Since update, the ability to select the mode is intermittent (even from a trimmed hover). When it does engage, oscillations commence, eventually causing control loss. I did notice (with the controls indicator on) the little green cross (fcs?) was making some random severe movents from centre of the cycic indicator diamond.

In forward flight attitude and altitude modes work ok.

Using a standard sprung warthog stick (central trimmer mode) hover hold works everytime.

I want to blame the komodo cyclic, but all was fine prior to the update. Is the ffb option bugged?

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by Cyborg71

[Floyd1212]

I hadn't run into this myself until tonight.  I'm using Central Position Trimmer (not using FFB), but I wasn't able to engage ALT hold.

I was at a dead hover with ATT Hold engaged, and a stable altitude, making fine adjustments to the collective, and ALT Hold would not engage.  Then I realized I was at 101% torque (boxed) to maintain that hover.  I was able to drop my collective to reduce torque to 98% (or wherever the box goes away), and I was then able to engage ALT Hold.  It soon disengaged itself when it tried to raise the torque again to maintain that altitude, but it worked briefly.

Might be unrelated to the issue mentioned above with FFB mode, but thought I would share that revelation.

[Floyd1212]

Sorry, I just realized this thread was originally about ATT Hold, and my comment above was about ALT Hold. 

[funkster]

On 12/20/2022 at 2:00 PM, BIGNEWY said:

Edit, 

This is a bug, and the team will look at tweaking in a future patch.

thanks

Has this now been addressed?

[admiki]

It works if that's what you have been asking.

It will do a few violent corrections (severity depends on how unstable you are) if you are not in stable hover to get you back above the spot where you have activated att hold and it will be dead steady afterwards.