solved Lasing Issue - GBUs 12 not getting it depending on payloads

[Steel600]

Hi,

First of all I will do a little "disclaimer" about my issue and my profile : I have been flying hundreds of hours in the A10c I and II and released with success hundreds or thousands GBUs12 these last years. I've spent more than 10 or 15 hours testing this bug before even considering reporting it. My issue is that recently I couldn't hit my targets with my GBU 12. It happened too many times to be normal, and when I checked with the external weapon view (F6) I could clearly see that they fall like dumb bombs (MK82) and didn't catch the lasing at all (no movement/correction in the trajectory of fall at all). 

To ensure I wasn't doing anything wrong I double checked everything, including : laser codes on bomb and pod, using laser and not IR pointer, manual lasing or autolasing (12 seconds), not to use the laser for too long (no burned laser), flying straight above the target to avoid any masking, using "point" or "area" designation, doing it on "flying start" missions (to be sure I didn't do anything wrong on the startup procedure).

I am now pretty sure : I did nothing wrong on my side and the issue is "real". After my extensive testing I can ensure that it happens every time under some "conditions" (regardless if it is an offline or multiplayer mission, coldstart or flying start) and seems to be related to the payload used on the plane. If I load the plane with a pretty realistic payload... everything is fine, I can get 100% hits on 4, 5 or 6 GBu12s.

But if y use some payloads, with loads of weapons... the problem stats. It's hard to find the exact combination of weapons that causes it to "trigger" the issue... and I know that some configurations aren't that much realistic... but still... I think it's a bug, because of the way of it presents (by GBUs not picking the laser). If I am wrong and that it's the normal behavior for it to fail, can you please provide some reference to what to load or not on the plane ? To be sure that the issue happens, I just load my plane with weapons on every station (except for stations with TGP and Jammer).

To better help understand I provide here as well a YouTube video (with chapters/sections) and a track file in attachment. You can see on the YouTube vid an example of payload that triggers the issue each and every time.

I would love if the sim didn't let us load incorrect payloads if that's the issue... or at least to know what to do or not to do. Hope this helps and looking forward for your answer. Thanks a lot for your support !

Forgot to mention, and I've done less tests about it, but it seems to me that the APKWS Laser Guided Rockets have the same issue... I have too much of them missing and just not picking up the laser when the plane is loaded with lots of ammo.

PS : I'm on DCS OpenBeta version 2.8.1.34667.

PS 2 : Not sure if it's a weapon or aircraft related issue, I posted it on the "Weapons Bug" Forum but doesn't seem to get a lot of feedback. Maybe it is better to put it here.

 

20230115 - GBU Lasing Issue - 1hit - 2and3 miss.trk

dcs.log

Edited January 15, 2023 by Steel600
Changed the track file + added log file

[BIGNEWY]

Hi, 

the attached track is for the hornet, do you have one showing the issue on the A-10C? 

[BIGNEWY]

Just tested mixed loadouts, using manual and auto lase on GBU-12 and I am not seeing a problem. All GBU's tracked my laser to the target. 

 

It maybe worth running a repair or if steam a verify to ensure nothing strange is going on with the DCS. 

Please also attach your dcs log from saved games dcs log folder it may have some clues.

thanks

 

[Yurgon]

5 hours ago, Steel600 said:

To better help understand I provide here as well a YouTube video (with chapters/sections) and a track file in attachment.

Excellent report!

Every single step in the video looks fine, there should have been 6 out of 6 hits. The loadout as such is perfectly fine (we wouldn't likely see it in real life, but as far as I'm aware there's nothing there that would explain these GBUs missing their targets).

I also ran a quick test, recreating the conditions from your video as closely as I could, and in my attempt the first GBU-12 already killed the intended target.

I agree with Bignewy, a DCS repair would be the first thing to try.

If that doesn't work, I'd also try to rename the entire folder Saved Games\DCS (or Saved Games\DCS.openbeta) and try again; this folder holds your login data and all your input profiles and screen settings and so on. Just try to run a bare test like the one above with the minimum config required and see if the behavior changes. Maybe there's a mod, or a leftover from a mod, that somehow messes with the laser guided bombs? After testing, you can just remove the new folder Saved Games\DCS that was automatically created by DCS and rename your old one back to get all of your DCS config back, and depending on the outcome of the test you could then try to isolate the file or files that cause the problem (or if the problem still happens with the bare config, then you know that nothing in Saved Games\DCS had anything to do with it).

I also saw an F/A-18 track; maybe the proper A-10C track holds some clues, so if you can upload that, we can take a look at it and see if we spot anything.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Yurgon
Typo

[Steel600]

On 1/10/2023 at 10:44 AM, BIGNEWY said:

the attached track is for the hornet, do you have one showing the issue on the A-10C? 

First of all, thanks for your answers and the time you took to check on this issue.

My bad for the wrong track, must have messed up the files. Will do a new one today or tomorrow and will post it here.

 

On 1/10/2023 at 11:08 AM, BIGNEWY said:

It maybe worth running a repair or if steam a verify to ensure nothing strange is going on with the DCS. 

Please also attach your dcs log from saved games dcs log folder it may have some clues.

Already tried a repair : no luck. Will attach the DCS log with the new track file.

 

On 1/10/2023 at 4:11 PM, Yurgon said:

If that doesn't work, I'd also try to rename the entire folder Saved Games\DCS (or Saved Games\DCS.openbeta) and try again; this folder holds your login data and all your input profiles and screen settings and so on. Just try to run a bare test like the one above with the minimum config required and see if the behavior changes. Maybe there's a mod, or a leftover from a mod, that somehow messes with the laser guided bombs? After testing, you can just remove the new folder Saved Games\DCS that was automatically created by DCS and rename your old one back to get all of your DCS config back, and depending on the outcome of the test you could then try to isolate the file or files that cause the problem (or if the problem still happens with the bare config, then you know that nothing in Saved Games\DCS had anything to do with it).

Will do as well (even if I don't use any mod at all).

[Steel600]

Here is a brand new track file I just made. 3 passes ... 1st GBU12 hits (and works perfectly as intended), 2nd and 3rd failed (felt like dumb bombs).

I also included the log file as requested.

Thanks again for your help, much appreciated.

dcs.log 20230115 - GBU Lasing Issue - 1hit - 2and3 miss.trk

[Yurgon]

3 hours ago, Steel600 said:

1st GBU12 hits (and works perfectly as intended), 2nd and 3rd failed (felt like dumb bombs).

Things are getting a bit weird here. I ran the track and got 3 hits out of the 3 bombs.

Now tracks are just recordings of all the inputs into a mission, so unlike a video, they're not guaranteed to generate the same outcome when played back.

The thing is, whatever told your DCS that the 2nd and 3rd GBU-12 missed their targets wasn't present in my DCS as I ran the track.

I'm no expert for logfile analysis, but didn't see anything out of the ordinary in your dcs.log; mine looks very much the same.

I can only conclude that the guidance logic or laser seeker logic works differently in your DCS installation, but if you've repaired your DCS and tried with a blank Saved Games\DCS.openbeta folder, then I have no idea why it would do that; your DCS version is up to date, and if you don't run any mods at all, then I'm at a loss; the GBUs should work fine for you.

Here's to hoping Bignewy will find something.

[ex81]

Watched the track and saw bomb 1 / hit. Bomb 2  / failt. Bomb 3 /  hit. Strange !! As Yurgon saw different result.

Maybe with bomb 2 , lasing was not long enough ?

Don`t trust tracks !

 

Edited January 16, 2023 by ex81

[Steel600]

Well... the fact that the track gives different results... it's strange... but ok... if it's only inputs, I can understand that a minor diff can impact the result

14 hours ago, Yurgon said:

I can only conclude that the guidance logic or laser seeker logic works differently in your DCS installation, but if you've repaired your DCS and tried with a blank Saved Games\DCS.openbeta folder, then I have no idea why it would do that; your DCS version is up to date, and if you don't run any mods at all, then I'm at a loss; the GBUs should work fine for you.

Till now I repaired the DCS installation, but still haven't trield a blank "Saved Games\DCS.openbeta". It's my next step. Will do it later this evening.

[Yurgon]

1 hour ago, ex81 said:

Maybe with bomb 2 , lasing was not long enough ?

They were all auto-lase with 12 seconds of lasing, all from roughly the same altitude, with circa 20 seconds time of fall, and no laser-masking whatsoever.

I mean, a single bomb might go amiss, and I do believe random bomb failures are simulated (though we usually get a probability of kill that way, way exceeds what the armed forces see in real life), but OP reporting consistent 90 % or so misses, that just shouldn't be the case.

47 minutes ago, Steel600 said:

Till now I repaired the DCS installation, but still haven't trield a blank "Saved Games\DCS.openbeta". It's my next step. Will do it later this evening.

I'm totally keeping my fingers crossed, because otherwise I'm out of ideas.

[Steel600]

Well... after hours and hours struggling with that problem... can't believe the answer was that simple : I tried with a blank "Saved Games\DCS.openbeta" and the problem is gone. Loaded the plane with 9GBu 12's ... 9 hits... couldn't believe it.

I even reverted back to my old "Saved Games\DCS.openbeta" that I saved ... and the issue comes back again. I tried importing my "pilotlog", input configs, visal/audio settings and 2 or 3 things from my old folder to the "blank new" one ... and everything works perfectly fine and my GBUs keep hitting each and everytime. I'm an happy pilot... ready to deliver loads of freedom and peace

Still don't really know what in my old folder created the issue ... but it doesn't matter. Thanks for your help Yourgon and Bignewy !!!

Edited January 18, 2023 by Steel600
typo

[Yurgon]

Yeah, it's really odd. Maybe it's a leftover from a previous DCS version? Then again I've had my Saved Games\DCS for ages and never removed it for many DCS versions.

Anyway, really cool that it's working now for you!