Is it responsive enough?

[zaGURUinzaSKY]

Looking at real ka50 videos, they looks to me to be more responsive on rudder, they change heading so quikly that I can't do the same in the sim, even without payload and half fuel.. Are these parameters perfectly simulated ?

 

It also looks a bit strange to me that the hely is always "bouncing.. swinging.. tilting..." a bit, I mean, it takes time to learn how to hold it still in some direction, is it the same on the real KA50? Is it so demending? I flew a Robinson r44 once and also an A350 (lot cheaper machines) but I didn't notice this behaviour, why should a more complex machine like the KA 50 be less "stable" of those little choppers?

 

Thanks!

[A.S]

"bouncing.. swinging.. tilting..."

 

why should a more complex machine like the KA 50 be less "stable" of those little choppers?

 

Thanks!

 

.to give you that impression of OHSOREALISTIC :lol:

[zaGURUinzaSKY]

ehehe, you think it's the same on real??

[A.S]

I have never flown a real BS, sorry.

 

How would you try to simulate these things on a 2D screen?

 

Is it how the real thing behaves ?...or are these just elements to make it feel better? :unsure:

I dont know.

 

But one thing is for sure, IF shakings and vibrations and bouncings would be simulated totally accurate they would appear

definitly more exaggerated through your screen compared to reallive expierience sitting in of of these aircrafts, due to the

fact that you would see your environment in reference to your screenframe from a stable position (your chair).

Even sitting in a aircraft and being shaked around with it yourself, you compensate your sensation in your senses, but having same situation through a window (screen) would make things appear wiered.

 

Question is how to simulate this expierience.

 

I give you an example:

You pull 9Gs in your fighterjet and suddenly your TrackIR slows down and does not allow you to look over you shoulders instantly, cuz your head is very much 9times heavier :P, or you stop abrubt a hard bank and your head bounces against your canopy :).

 

If you would simulate all these things, some might love it, some might hate it. Nevertheless a sims goal is realism.

Edited January 22, 2009 by A.S

[zaGURUinzaSKY]

it's not about screen or 3d view, it's about attitude, it s so hard to keep the attitude still ! I videopilot UAV helicopters with LCD goggles in real life and it's not that unstable , and we're just talking about small models with a Wind/Weight ratio a lot higher of real scale helis, the can move like little mosquitos If I givve they the right inputs, but they are still if I don,'t they mantain attitude if i don't move my fingers..., I suppose (but I can be wrong offcourse) that such a big heli like the KA50 shouldnt be so unstable.

[A.S]

As far as i know there have been 2 millitary chopper simulators at MAKS Airshow. (not sure if it was Kh-50 though).

One light version for visitors and one heavy realistic one.

I think =RvE=Ekro and =RvE=Killr have been there and tried it, but you would have to ask them.....or best someone who really has flown BS and real Kh-50.

 

Interesting observation and question anyways.

 

What brings up the question for DCS: Has any real Kh-50 pilot fown BS and supported you guys in making it?

Edited January 22, 2009 by A.S

[Shrubbo]

Meh I have looked but can't find the video but there is one somewhere where the video camera is in the cockpit looking out over the nose. Very similar to our view in game.

 

I can't remember the details but I can remember thinking just how close they got this sim to the real thing. Yes it seems it does actually move like that :)

[Shrubbo]

BTW if you turn off all the autopilot assists (Those blue buttons next to your virtual right elbow) you will find all that behavior goes away and it only does what you tell it to do (Or don't stop it doing). A considerable increase in work load but flying it is all the fun for me, I don't want no computer doing it for me do I :D

[zaGURUinzaSKY]

BTW if you turn off all the autopilot assists (Those blue buttons next to your virtual right elbow) you will find all that behavior goes away and it only does what you tell it to do (Or don't stop it doing). A considerable increase in work load but flying it is all the fun for me, I don't want no computer doing it for me do I :D

 

I'll try, that's the way I'm more used to pilot helis. Thanks

[Focha]

I don't find it unstable. The problem is the interface we use to communicate with the simulation. In this case some X52 or some Cougar. If you had some trimable dampened cyclic with some good collective and anti torque pedals you would feel the simulation a lot different. I can't talk regarding specifically the ka50 but I know that a similar helicopter is very stable. Ka32. Once a pilot told be that after trimmed and with no gusts he could maintain the helicopter in a hover without touching the controls.

 

I think it depends a bit on the hardware you have to control the Ka50 sim and how you configure it.

 

Best regards.

[zaGURUinzaSKY]

mostlikely is like that..

[zaGURUinzaSKY]

but there is still question one of the first post.. anybody?

[aledmb]

It also looks a bit strange to me that the hely is always

"bouncing.. swinging.. tilting..." a bit, I mean, it takes

time to learn how to hold it still in some direction, is it

the same on the real KA50?

 

i don't know about the real one, but the maneuvering in

the game gets a lot better if you adjust your stick x and

y axes curves to be not so sensitive at the center

(especially if you have a cougar).

 

also (and you should already know that), trim the aircraft

everytime you wish to maintain constant attitude.

[zaGURUinzaSKY]

yeah I also added some curve, custom curve on pitch and roll.

[Jack57]

BTW if you turn off all the autopilot assists (Those blue buttons next to your virtual right elbow) you will find all that behavior goes away and it only does what you tell it to do (Or don't stop it doing). A considerable increase in work load but flying it is all the fun for me, I don't want no computer doing it for me do I :D

 

I'm with you on that one - I only use auto pilot when I am targeting or occasionally in Route Mode when I want to use time compression. Without any auto pilot on it feels just like a real helicopter to fly and you will never be fighting against what the computer wants to do :thumbup:

 

As for the pedals - yes I do find them sluggish. If you watch the pedal animation in the cockpit (or the rudder in rear view) you can see the effect of your pedal inputs is very much dampened. I have no RL experience of this particular helicopter so I can't say for certain that the pedal inputs are dampened or not.

 

Cheers,

Jack :pilotfly:

[ericinexile]

Turn the FD on and leave the channels on. FD will disable the autopilot channels while still providing a small amount of stability augmentation in each axis. I was about to put BS back into its virtual box and stick with LOMAC before I learned about the Flight Director.

 

Smokin' Hole

[miguez]

Meh I have looked but can't find the video but there is one somewhere where the video camera is in the cockpit looking out over the nose. Very similar to our view in game.

 

Here it is.

[wildone_106]

Same here! Now I only turn FD off for hovering and I love how agile the BS is I do some insanely silly maneuvers but it still can take it..

 

Turn the FD on and leave the channels on. FD will disable the autopilot channels while still providing a small amount of stability augmentation in each axis. I was about to put BS back into its virtual box and stick with LOMAC before I learned about the Flight Director.

 

Smokin' Hole

[815TooCooL]

Same here! Now I only turn FD off for hovering and I love how agile the BS is I do some insanely silly maneuvers but it still can take it..

 

One question here.

Is it realistic way of flying?

I heard real KA-50 pilots almost never use FD.

And for example, if they happen to perform airshow or needing extreme maneuver to outperform enemy chopper :D, would they turn FD on for loose autopilot limit even if they don't use FD most of ordinary(including combat) flight?

[aledmb]

Here it is.

this video proves it's correct to use the rudder to turn.

look at 03:00.

[wildone_106]

I have no idea? But before I turned on FD I couldn't even LAND, let alone fly straight. I should say I dont use Trim either..I turn off my Force Feedback so the stick is 'free' but then I dont have to worry about trimming every second, and together with FD I have perfect finesse over how it flys and lands ect..its a joy now.

 

 

One question here.

Is it realistic way of flying?

I heard real KA-50 pilots almost never use FD.

And for example, if they happen to perform airshow or needing extreme maneuver to outperform enemy chopper :D, would they turn FD on for loose autopilot limit even if they don't use FD most of ordinary(including combat) flight?

[zaGURUinzaSKY]

this video proves it's correct to use the rudder to turn.

look at 03:00.

 

I don't think it's correct or uncorrect... I think it's up to your piloting style and necessities, this is for sure if you need to maximize efficency and forward speed, a well coordinated turn helps !

[815TooCooL]

I have no idea? But before I turned on FD I couldn't even LAND, let alone fly straight. I should say I dont use Trim either..I turn off my Force Feedback so the stick is 'free' but then I dont have to worry about trimming every second, and together with FD I have perfect finesse over how it flys and lands ect..its a joy now.

If you can't land or something without FD and you don't even trim then I understand what is your problem. You were fighting autopilot.

You don't fly *right*(? in realistic manner) but that's your choice so have it your way.

 

OK, FD is off for me and I do all maneuvers ok and response is good pressing trim button.

Just thought if there were anything I missed.

[ericinexile]

One question here.

Is it realistic way of flying?

I heard real KA-50 pilots almost never use FD.

 

Well I've heard that Real Ka50 pilots almost never fly with a Saitek.

[Reticuli]

The Ka-50 doesn't do automatic coordinated turns, so you should be using pedal when turning to assist the bank. Otherwise you get more sideslip and less nose rotation than you want.

 

I also think the ED shark model right now is a little too squirly. It's so bobby and wobbly that the 20% dampening authority when in FD mode with the 3 channels on seems very weak. Possibly insufficient aerodynamic streamlining modeling? The air itself around the airframe and disks is a moderately stabilizing force enveloping the aircraft in forward flight. Even with all 3 hold channels off it seems like there's a little too much crazyness going on.

 

It could also be that the flight model is tied to frame rates. Not sure, but X-Plane's real-time derivative blade-system certainly is. Maybe the dampening and autopilot hold channels function better at higher fps? My original assumption was that ED modeled it, as one of the posters above put it OHSOREALISTIC, as in exaggerated attitude instability and difficulty, like IL2, WWII Fighters in Wicked Mode, and Janes F-15E (at least the bobbing). But the ED devs took offense to that and quickly shot it down.

 

Considering yaw is simply a function of the difference in rotation between the two rotors, right, I would also agree you should seemingly have more yaw authority. Plus you get a tail rudder assist. In forward flight, I've seen footage of Kamovs doing flat yaw-turns at speed and they did them faster than we can in the sim and without bumping rotors.

 

But hey, I didn't program this beast, and considering the detail the devs put in they may or may not have achieved the intended flight dynamics results in the performance validation process. In the mean time, you can be more gentle at the controls...which is always a good idea. And we can continue the civil discussion ;-)

 

By the way, what kind of lcd goggles do you use? Ever tried integrating the eMagin Z800 into what you use? Do you actually do professional camera footage with it or is that separate and the UAV stuff is just recreational?

Edited January 23, 2009 by Reticuli