questions about landing

[noelgallagher]

i'm having very hard time to land this thing properly 

especially when i try to land this on the short field like dunkirk AF

i searched this subject on the youtube and there are some landing exmaples but there's no definite guides for this specific aircraft

i read the manual and the chucks guide but i coulnd't find any tips for landing 

some say i have to trim the aircraft correctly if i want to land it properly 

but i don't know how much trim i need for the landing 

also it seems like it has a right turning tendency when you are in low airspeed with low power 

am i correct on this?

if this is true can anyone explain to me why is this so?

becasue i watched a lot of videos about how to handle the propeller airplane

and all they were talking about was left turning tendency 

i'm pretty new to the flight sim 

and try to learn as much as i can

if someone can help me with this subject it would be greatly appreciated 

thank you 

Edited January 19, 2023 by noelgallagher

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Hi mate, welcome to the forums.

 

Dunkirk aerodrome is tricky, perhaps not the best place to learn how to land short with a heavily powered aircraft. Besides bear in mind the concrete area is really short, not necessarily intended to be "the whole runway" but a part of it, don't hesitate to use the grass area also, you aren't getting off runway.

I don't know exactly what you do for trimming, yes you should trim your aircraft properly in every moment of the flight and landing is a critical one. It's not that hard to proper trim, but you need to practice it. No secret, just trim your aircraft until you feel no upward/downward force in the stick and the aircraft flies "hands off" in the pitch axis. Uncontrolled glide paths are a common source of problems while landing. Also remember the old adagio in aviation, 80% of the landing is a good approach, so if you're struggling to manage the aircraft in that situation don't try to push it with short landing glides too close to the runway, take your time making a proper landing pattern the long you need it. Once you learn the basic it's easier to make shorter patterns later on.

Yes, to right turning props it's usual the left tendency in general, but make no mistake, torque works both ways, left when you add power, right when you cut it, so it's pretty normal when you cut throttle to notice the right tendency or lack of torque because the aircraft is built to counter the left torque present most of the time. Anyhow in a Fw190 you shouldn't make an approach with no engine unless you are really high, when you come in with your engine on the right oposite torque is not that much of a problem. Maybe you're trying to land too slow and that's why you notice even more that. Remember 240-250 is a good glide speed for the 190, which will be 210-200 when crossing the threshold, and after roll out and cutting engine you'll touch ground about 190-180 Km/H or so.

 

Good luck .

Edited January 19, 2023 by Ala13_ManOWar

[konyanyachiwa]

I tried to takeoff and landing at the Dunkirk runway.

It's pretty tough. 

FW190A8 Dunkirk Mardyck.trk FW190A8 Dunkirk Mardyck Cross Wind.trk

[Ala13_ManOWar]

It is, that concrete strip is so short it looks like more an apron than a runway. But grass runway goes on after the concrete and it's there to be used.

 

TBH while learning Dunkirk isn't the best place to learn. Anywhere else would be quite more suited.

[Art-J]

3 hours ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

 Anywhere else would be quite more suited.

...with any other DCS warbird by ED (apart from Dora) I would add. Can't comment on I-16, 'cause I don't own it.

Both Fw-190s in DCS are quite demanding to land smoothly from my subjective perspective, Dora being even worse of the two. Gear down and flaps down, if slowing a bit too much they glide like a piano and increase sink rate at alarming rate . They have their own brutal charm I admit, but I wouldn't recommend them for warbird training when someone new comes to DCS.

@noelgallagher if you really really want to practice operating from the shortest fields, have you considered doing it with the free Mustang for a while (which is much more tame in comparison) and once you're consistent and comfortable with flight modelling in DCS in general - then switch back to more tricky Anton?

[noelgallagher]

8 hours ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Hi mate, welcome to the forums.

 

Dunkirk aerodrome is tricky, perhaps not the best place to learn how to land short with a heavily powered aircraft. Besides bear in mind the concrete area is really short, not necessarily intended to be "the whole runway" but a part of it, don't hesitate to use the grass area also, you aren't getting off runway.

I don't know exactly what you do for trimming, yes you should trim your aircraft properly in every moment of the flight and landing is a critical one. It's not that hard to proper trim, but you need to practice it. No secret, just trim your aircraft until you feel no upward/downward force in the stick and the aircraft flies "hands off" in the pitch axis. Uncontrolled glide paths are a common source of problems while landing. Also remember the old adagio in aviation, 80% of the landing is a good approach, so if you're struggling to manage the aircraft in that situation don't try to push it with short landing glides too close to the runway, take your time making a proper landing pattern the long you need it. Once you learn the basic it's easier to make shorter patterns later on.

Yes, to right turning props it's usual the left tendency in general, but make no mistake, torque works both ways, left when you add power, right when you cut it, so it's pretty normal when you cut throttle to notice the right tendency or lack of torque because the aircraft is built to counter the left torque present most of the time. Anyhow in a Fw190 you shouldn't make an approach with no engine unless you are really high, when you come in with your engine on the right oposite torque is not that much of a problem. Maybe you're trying to land too slow and that's why you notice even more that. Remember 240-250 is a good glide speed for the 190, which will be 210-200 when crossing the threshold, and after roll out and cutting engine you'll touch ground about 190-180 Km/H or so.

 

Good luck .

 

thank you very very much for your detalied explanation 

it helped me a lot in terms of how should i treat the propeller aircraft 

but the trimming question reamains unsolved for me 

when you say "I don't know exactly what you do for trimming, yes you should trim your aircraft properly in every moment of the flight and landing is a critical one."

is that mean that i should constantly adjust the trim along with the throttle power?

i mean  if i'm in level flight and try to cruise then it's pretty easy becasue my throttle power is set to cruise power and i don't have to constatnly touch it

but when i try to land i'm constatnly making the adjustment on throttle power 

so i'm having hard time to trim it perfectly 

hmm maybe i should set my trim to work with 240-250 approaching speed 

and from there only start to focus on other parts of landing procedures

thank you again

24 minutes ago, Art-J said:

...with any other DCS warbird by ED (apart from Dora) I would add. Can't comment on I-16, 'cause I don't own it.

Both Fw-190s in DCS are quite demanding to land smoothly from my subjective perspective, Dora being even worse of the two. Gear down and flaps down, if slowing a bit too much they glide like a piano and increase sink rate at alarming rate . They have their own brutal charm I admit, but I wouldn't recommend them for warbird training when someone new comes to DCS.

@noelgallagher if you really really want to practice operating from the shortest fields, have you considered doing it with the free Mustang for a while (which is much more tame in comparison) and once you're consistent and comfortable with flight modelling in DCS in general - then switch back to more tricky Anton?

i'm having no trouble to land p-51 or even 109 k4

190 seems to have high descent rate than other ones 

that troubles me a lot too 

i might practice more with p-51 as you have suggested 

BTW i'm having more fun with take off and landing procedures than actual combats and dogfights LOL

Edited January 19, 2023 by noelgallagher

[noelgallagher]

"I went into the British Army believing that if you want peace you must prepare for war. I believe now that if you prepare for war, you get war."

BTW i coulnd't agree more with that quote

Edited January 19, 2023 by noelgallagher

[peachmonkey]

17 minutes ago, noelgallagher said:

hmm maybe i should set my trim to work with 240-250 approaching speed 

yup, and continue to increase it to tail heavy at 220kmh, 210... 

It is a tough bird to learn landing on, and it makes it one of its most exciting features.    Keep practicing and practicing, try to do touch'n'go at 210 or even 200khm, in the end it'll become like learning to ride a bicycle, once you've got it you've got it.

[noelgallagher]

27 minutes ago, peachmonkey said:

yup, and continue to increase it to tail heavy at 220kmh, 210... 

It is a tough bird to learn landing on, and it makes it one of its most exciting features.    Keep practicing and practicing, try to do touch'n'go at 210 or even 200khm, in the end it'll become like learning to ride a bicycle, once you've got it you've got it.

thanks for your further explanations 

and that bicycle exmaple makes perfect sense to me 

i thought there is some kind of definite settings that i can apply and never have to care

but it seems like it's a very intuitive thing at the end hahaha

[Art-J]

41 minutes ago, peachmonkey said:

Keep practicing and practicing, try to do touch'n'go at 210 or even 200khm, in the end it'll become like learning to ride a bicycle, once you've got it you've got it.

Until you take a break from either of Fw-190 for a few months and when you go back to them you realize your takeoffs and landings are rough and sloppy again :D. At least that's how it usually is in my case.

[peachmonkey]

1 hour ago, Art-J said:

Until you take a break from either of Fw-190 for a few months and when you go back to them you realize your takeoffs and landings are rough and sloppy again :D. At least that's how it usually is in my case.

she does have a serious sink rate if you don't anticipate it...   But c'mon, after 2-3 take-offs/landings you're back to your senses.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

On 1/19/2023 at 9:06 PM, noelgallagher said:

thank you very very much for your detalied explanation 

it helped me a lot in terms of how should i treat the propeller aircraft 

but the trimming question reamains unsolved for me 

when you say "I don't know exactly what you do for trimming, yes you should trim your aircraft properly in every moment of the flight and landing is a critical one."

is that mean that i should constantly adjust the trim along with the throttle power?

i mean  if i'm in level flight and try to cruise then it's pretty easy becasue my throttle power is set to cruise power and i don't have to constatnly touch it

but when i try to land i'm constatnly making the adjustment on throttle power 

so i'm having hard time to trim it perfectly 

hmm maybe i should set my trim to work with 240-250 approaching speed 

and from there only start to focus on other parts of landing procedures

Well, I meant of course you should always trim, anyhow don't fall into the other side, it happens that if you obsess a bit too much with trimming one ends up actually flying with the trim instead of your controls and that should be avoided too, but don't hesitate to trim whatever you need. Yes you should trim your aircraft most of the time but it happens not just because throttle changes, it happens actually due to airspeed changes and that can mean a lot of things from a throttle change, an attitude change, a weight change as tanks are emptied or payload dropped, and all that sort of things. Whenever you're on a landing approach usually one tries to slow down to the speed you aim (those said 240-250Km/H for instance) and there you should trim of course as you understood. Then again there will be changes of course as you approach the runway and slow down even further but those changes might well be kept with your stick, or if you like and have a proper trim control setting (like joystick hat) which allows you to do it comfortably, of course do if you want to, or not if you feel comfortable enough holding the stick all the way until touchdown.

What can be done is practising to slow down the aircraft until those 240-250Km/H and trim it there with a throttle setting keeping level flight. Remember, just cut engine a bit and try to avoid losing altitude, that's the correct way to lose speed in a controlled way, and you can do that at certain altitude, no need to go mowing the lawn for that . Then while in level flight and already trimmed try to cut throttle a bit  and watch how the aircraft lowers it's nose but, after a bit slowing down at first, it recovers the same airspeed you trimmed for but just descending (that's the magic of trimming, you trim for a certain airspeed and it'll try to hold it). That gentle descending attitude is the one you look for to the runway, still "hanging" from your engine, not with an idling engine which is like a lift in free fall to this plane. Actually in the glide path you should control your nose attitude (hence altitude) with your throttle, and airspeed with your stick, that's called controls inversion but perhaps that's for another day. If you practice what I told you I believe you'll discover for yourself.

If you manage to achieve that kind of controlled descending (you can practice that in every propeller aircraft in DCS, and even other titles though those aren't that critical about it) you'll nicely and gently descend to the runway, flare what you need once trespassing the threshold and land at a three point attitude (according to 190 manual that should be always the case, landing and actually taking off…). It's just a matter of trying to make it simple and in a controlled way, and once you master that you'll be able to fly it the way you want. It's just you need to master it first and 190 happens to be a little harder, though that depends on you only. Some people find Spitfire harder, some find Bf109 harder and some find P-47 harder, Mosquito is definitely harder just because twin engine, but 190 is hard for some people, you aren't alone in that. In any aircraft anyway, practice is key.

Edited January 18, 2024 by Ala13_ManOWar

[Doughguy]

Try to stick to procedures. 190s dont like to slow down so you have to think ahead.

Heres how i do. Once i approach the airstrip depending on how safe i am and height/speed etc. Descend to about 300meters airspeed 300kph. Set throttle to idle or use rudder and opposite direction stick to utilise the full fuselage as a airbrake.  Fly parallel to the airstrip with wingtip just about touching the runway.  Fly along the runway until your tail passes the end / touchdown point of the runway. Lower flaps  fully and gear. Ata should read about 1.7 1.8 ish as itll give you constant speed. Now turn into the runway. If done right your speed will bleed alot because of the sharp turn and your height shouldve dropped to about 250kph. Now aim with your reticle for the end of the runway eventually with the first vertical  mark below the center cross and keep steady. Dont let the anton let you distract from bucking around. Give gentle corrections. If the general course is right its all good.

Watch speed and descent rate. Latter shouldnt be 2 or higher. Ideal is about 1.5ish.  Dont pull up if you descent to quick but increase throttle. Try to keep landing speed ro about 180. 200 is already too fast. 150 is touchdown speed! 

The tricky part is the flare just before t/d. Ive crashed on so many occasions after perfect descends just because i was to fast or too high. Its an experience thing tho. Try to memorize how the distance to the ground looked judging from when youre static on ground.

Right before the flare you set your speed to idle 1.2 ata and pull back gently at a speed of about 150.

If all done right shell dump on the ground and now you pull back on the stick full to lock the rudder.

 

It too me a few tries but using the crosshair as a visual aid helped alot.

[MrExplosion]

I like to set prop pitch to manual and approach with low ata and high rpm thus utilizing the prop as an air brake. I like to see about 220kph at runway threshold or a few meters prior to reaching it and then set throttle to idle and hold it low over the runway until you get too slow to hold it and then flare for 3 point touchdown.

@doughguy you may want to review those ata settings in your post

 

Edited January 21, 2023 by MrExplosion

[Doughguy]

Sorry, indeed. Was on the move. 

[noelgallagher]

On 1/21/2023 at 12:10 AM, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Well, I meant of course you should always trim, anyhow don't fall into the other side, it happens that if you obsess a bit too much with trimming one ends up actually flying with the trim instead of your controls and that should be avoided too, but don't hesitate to trim whatever you need. Yes you should trim your aircraft most of the time but it happens not just because throttle changes, it happens actually due to airspeed changes and that can mean a lot of things from a throttle change, an attitude change, a weight change as tanks are emptied or payload dropped, and all that sort of things. Whenever you're on a landing approach usually one tries to slow down to the speed you aim (those said 240-250Km/H for instance) and there you should trim of course as you understood. Then again there will be changes of course as you approach the runway and slow down even further but those changes might well be kept with your stick, or if you like and have a proper trim control setting (like joystick hat) which allows you to do it comfortably, of course do if you want to, or not if you feel comfortable enough holding the stick all the way until touchdown.

What can done is practising to slow down the aircraft to those 240-250Km/H and trim it there with a throttle setting keeping level flight. Remember, just cut engine a bit and try to avoid losing altitude, that's the correct to lose speed in a controlled way, and you can do that at certain altitude, no need to go mowing the lawn for that . Then while in level flight try to cut throttle a bit  and watch how the aircraft lowers it's nose but, after a bit slowing down at first, it recovers the same airspeed you trimmed for just descending (that's the magic of trimming, you trim for a certain airspeed and it'll try to hold it). That gentle descending attitude is the one you look for to the runway, still "hanging" from your engine, not with an idling engine which is like a lift in free fall to this plane. Actually in the glide path you should control your nose attitude (hence altitude) with your throttle, and airspeed with your stick, that's called controls inversion but perhaps that's for another day. If you practice what I told you I believe you'll discover for yourself.

If you manage to achieve that kind of controlled descending (you can practice that in every propeller aircraft in DCS, and even other titles though those aren't that critical about it) you'll nicely and gently descend to the runway, flare what you need once trespassing the threshold and land at a three point attitude (according to 190 manual that should be always the case, landing and actually taking off…). It's just a matter of trying to make it simple and in a controlled way, and once you master that you'll be able to fly it the way you want. It's just you need to master it first and 190 happens to be a little harder, though that depends on you only. Some people find Spitfire harder, some find Bf109 harder and some find P-47 harder, Mosquito is definitely harder just because twin engine, but 190 is hard for some people, you aren't alone in that. In any aircraft anyway, practice is key.

wow!!! i learned a lot from you

thank you so much

i was so new to the flying buisiness that i didn't even knew what flaps or stablizer meant once(let alone all thsoe AC words such as "torque effect" ETC)

so i started to watch a lot of private pilot lesson videos on youtube 

and i thought that i know a bit about flying AC after watching tons of it LOL

but it seems like there are endless things to learn when it comes down to flying well

and you certainly helped me to improve my knowledge about that 

much much appreciation for that once again

 

Edited January 27, 2023 by noelgallagher

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Anytime mate .

 

Yes, it's a vast topic, there're plenty of subjects in aviation and one can't master them all at once. For specific subjects it's best to search for those instead of just generic aviation chat. Whatever you struggle with it's there, but you have to look for the precise topic of course for further information.