known issue Holes on wings no drag?

[motoadve]

Blue Nose campaign,  on mission #2 my right wing had 2 very big holes caused by flak, I could let go the stick and the plane was flying hands off straight and level, which seems to show  that those holes did not add any drag, I was expecting the right wing to drop slowly, because the added drag.

On the other hand this damage did make my flaps fail, which I think was cool.

 

[jonfog]

I flew the Spit the other day and was promptly shot down. Observing the AI fighting in the F2 view I noticed a FW-190 flying around effortlessly with only the left elevator intact! So there seems to be a problem.

[razo+r]

AI does not obey the same laws of physics as a player does. At least not yet. 

[grafspee]

On 1/22/2023 at 6:19 AM, motoadve said:

Blue Nose campaign,  on mission #2 my right wing had 2 very big holes caused by flak, I could let go the stick and the plane was flying hands off straight and level, which seems to show  that those holes did not add any drag, I was expecting the right wing to drop slowly, because the added drag.

On the other hand this damage did make my flaps fail, which I think was cool.

 

Higher drag will induce yaw deviation which should make plane to roll a little bit, but mian thing which plays role here is reduced lift and this can make plane uncontrollable when lift difference will overcome aileron compensation.

So yes plane with big holes in wing should be harder to control, when you can let go stick and plane flies straight, i see things that way.

The damage is minor and holes are just graphical bug or FM does not account for that.

Edited January 28, 2023 by grafspee

[Ala13_ManOWar]

I believe it does but it's just not the heavy effect one might think it is. It's usual you get damage, you follow flying, you think there's no problem with the damage you have. Then again you RTB and slow down to land only to find the aircraft falls from the sky, damage wasn't so mild after all but you couldn't notice at higher speeds.

[grafspee]

21 minutes ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

I believe it does but it's just not the heavy effect one might think it is. It's usual you get damage, you follow flying, you think there's no problem with the damage you have. Then again you RTB and slow down to land only to find the aircraft falls from the sky, damage wasn't so mild after all but you couldn't notice at higher speeds.

Plane loses control at landing is case where flaps aren't deploying properly, for example only one flap works.

But if there is any damage to wing i mean large area of fabric is destroyed it will affect plane at every speed not only at low speed.

In DCS those damages aren't modeled. 

[Ala13_ManOWar]

And it does, just not like most people think it does. That's my point, only whenever you lower your speed and dirt up the plane to land you discover how much it does affect your flying. Hence, damage isn't mild at all, just not what you expect. Movies and other arcade games have spoiled us to think it should be worse than it is, just that.

[Hobel]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb Ala13_ManOWar:

And it does, just not like most people think it does. That's my point, only whenever you lower your speed and dirt up the plane to land you discover how much it does affect your flying. Hence, damage isn't mild at all, just not what you expect. Movies and other arcade games have spoiled us to think it should be worse than it is, just that.

 you have an example?
do not confuse this with control cable damage.
as far as i have been able to observe, damage has no arodynamic effect on the aircrafts.

No matter how badly one wing or even both are damaged, you can still fly just as fast as without damage.
even a single hit of the 50-calibre on a wing should slow the aircraft down slightly,but that does not happen.
Therefore, grafspee has a point.

[grafspee]

Only case when plane will fly different is when you get your ailerons elevator or rudder shot off or linkages are jammed or cut off if those aren't damaged plane fly as brand new no matter how many bullets go through wings or fuselage.

I didn't mention case when you loose tail or wing or both because this is rather obvious that plane will drop on the ground but i have heard that some managed to land with out the wing but i think this was just visual bug.

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by grafspee

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Quote

 you have an example?

Like, any time you get back home with combat damage and try to land you mean? You people really don't notice how it flies worse? Haven't tried lately, but at low landing speeds and gear/flaps down it used to be quite noticeable, to me at least. That's why landing with combat damage should be performed at higher than prescribed speeds.

Once I saw a video right here at these forums trying to "demonstrate" how you could fly all the way till landing with combat damage and the guy just landed at high speed as per procedure while saying "you see? Damage has no effect", then again he thought we all are idiots and didn't notice his higher than normal landing speed, which is the exact procedure you should follow .

 

As you say, "a single bullet hole should be noticed", eh, well, no, a single bullet hole has an effect but so tiny you cannot notice, which doesn't mean the effect is not there, it's there (or was, not tried lately as said) but it's just not that bad as most people think it should be. A single hole, or just a bird cr@p indeed or any dirt over the wings (that's why aeroplanes are cleaned), has an effect and wing profile has no lift in that chord (care should be put with building ice, for instance), but it doesn't mean you should notice a lot. With ice indeed in civil GA it's known how dangerous it is because it builds up and every single ice pellet stuck to your leading edge means a wing chord not providing lift at all. But you don't notice that loss of lift until the aircraft builds up too much ice and it literally falls from the sky while you didn't even notice first, the plane just keeps flying until it reaches a critical point. My understanding is that it should be the very same with combat damage, your bullet hole for instance, it's there but you don't notice until there're too many holes, or conditions changes like… when you try to land and lower your airspeed.

So, as said it was there the last time I tried. noticeable a lot? No, for sure not until it's big damage. Then again, as you come to land and try to lower your airspeed as usual it's more noticeable. Is it not lately? Maybe something's wrong after some patch, test it and write a proper bug report if it's the case. Until it's really not noticeable at all, maybe the effect which was there had disappeared lately for a reason, the effect was there, just not movie like, it's there just as it should be subtracting a part of lift, but not it all. If it's really not there, write a proper bug report. If it's only you aren't sensitive enough to notice the obvious effect, it's no bug, it's you not noticing it because previously it was there and it was noticeable for sure.

Edited January 28, 2023 by Ala13_ManOWar

[Hobel]

From which plane is your last experience? 

And about the one inclusion hole, or damage in general, I was just talking about high speeds for now. 

And as I said do not confuse cable damage with the aerodynamic.

[Yo-Yo]

There are several WT and CFD researches including our own CFD tests about the holes and their effect on lift and drag.  The results can disappoint those who expect "any hole must be noticeable". No, even multiple 12.7 mm holes or even hole up to 30 cm in diameter do not cause something catastrophic or very pronounced. First of all, because their area is only a small percentage of the wing area and, additionally, the air is reluctant to flow to these holes even if they are throughout the wing, because of inertia.
If the edges are bent outside the effect will be a bit more pronounced but still not very noticeable because of small area of the bent areas.
 

[Hobel]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb Yo-Yo:

There are several WT and CFD researches including our own CFD tests about the holes and their effect on lift and drag.  The results can disappoint those who expect "any hole must be noticeable". No, even multiple 12.7 mm holes or even hole up to 30 cm in diameter do not cause something catastrophic or very pronounced. First of all, because their area is only a small percentage of the wing area and, additionally, the air is reluctant to flow to these holes even if they are throughout the wing, because of inertia.
If the edges are bent outside the effect will be a bit more pronounced but still not very noticeable because of small area of the bent areas.
 

Hm that surprises me.

  Because when I fly in an undamaged p51 top speed and test the same again with one where  wing is heavily damaged I don't see any difference.  Shouldn't the damaged one at least slow down a bit? 

 

Thx

[grafspee]

I don't expect that single hole should be noticeable, but after getting some punishments plane can not fly as bran new, some re trimming should be required and minor top speed impact should be noticeable. And OP is talking about badly damaged surface of the wing from flak fire having absolutely no effect on how plane fly.

I agree that couple holes even 20 or 30 holes wont hur much but wing which surface is reduced 20% or so should definitely change something.

Lift comes from pressure difference when you have big hole in wing some pressure leak is present so at least  some minor touch on trim should be required

 

Edited January 28, 2023 by grafspee

[Yo-Yo]

20% of wing surface is about 2 m2 of the hole or 1.4x1.4 m2 hole.

[motoadve]

Started this topic thinking from my experience in the real airplanes I fly.

I think where the damage is located can have more impact , more than the size of the hole.

Cessna 182, 2mm difference in one flap trailing edge side to the other, when trying to fly hands off, the plane rolled  slowly to one side, so in DCS if a plane is flying with only one horizontal stab, as soon as the elevator is applied , it should get out of control.(But I dont know if the graphics in game shows exactly the real damage)

 CJ6 Nanchang military trainer, lost the lid for the fuel fuel cap, its not small, 7 inches by 4 inches or so, in flight I could not feel anything  like a wing dropping slowly or nothing, of course I did not tried to fly it fast like this, and returned to land, I assume a bit of top speed penalty might have occurred., this lid is in the very center of the wing .

In the particular case of the DCS mission the P51 had a big hole from flak at the very edge of the right wing, this is why I found it odd that when I tried to fly the plane hands off, it stayed straight and level like if it had no damage.

The other hole was in the center of the wing.

[grafspee]

10 minutes ago, Yo-Yo said:

20% of wing surface is about 2 m2 of the hole or 1.4x1.4 m2 hole.

Yeah why not, if wing is damaged enough air flow will rip wing cover easily, in addition to that deformation of the wing cover may happen.

I don't think that any of that won't make difference like obsoletely no impact, i experienced it too, my plane was ripped apart by AAA engine was dead, big holes all over my plane and still no change how it fly beside cockpit shake, managed to put it down on the grass.

Thing is now that your plane can eat thousands of bullets and it will do nothing if those bullets won't hit any vital parts. And this happens quite often when plane get pounded really hard and keep flying and flying.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Maybe you didn't read my previous post… It's a very well known effect and a cause of accidents whenever ice builds up in leading edges of aeroplanes. BUT, it's dangerous because you don't notice it until the plane is literally falling from the sky. Maybe you can tell plane builders they have a bug because ice building up in leading edges of the wings and stabilizers isn't noticeable until it's too late .

We aren't talking control surfaces, of course minimal changes in control surfaces does have noticeable effects, that's out of the question, and it's definitely noticeable in DCS. But, a P-51 happen to have 3 axis trims so you can compensate and still fly good enough. Try that same in a Bf109, 190 or Spit with only one or two axis trim .

[grafspee]

@Ala13_ManOWar Ice deposit on edges is symmetrical that is why plane trim isn't affected as much. But holes from bullets aren't.

Ice symmetric deposit make whole thing dangerous because it is even everywhere if only one wing would get iced you would notice immediately that iced wind start to drop due to lowered lift, so even ice deposit makes stall speed higher and if unaware pilot will slow down to normal landing speed it will stall the plane.

So when plane get exact damage to left and right wing trim won't be affected but definitely higher stall speed should be observed ofc dependent on how serious damage is.

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by grafspee

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Ice deposits are symmetrical?? And how do you tell ice to go symmetric?

 

Anyhow, stop trying to justify the unjustifiable, "YOU DON'T NOTICE IT UNTIL IT'S TOO LATE". It's in every icing for GA manual. Did you get that or not?? It's easy mate, your "single hole should be noticed" isn't a thing. Period. Damage is there, just not MOVIE LIKE as you all seem to seek for an unknown reason (well, very well known, movies, arcades and what not. A simulator tries to replicate real life, not action movies. Control surfaces are, as their names says, control surfaces, a single dent there makes it different since those controls every movement in the aeroplane. A hole in the wing? Maybe not pretty, but since aeroplanes can sometimes fly even with half a wing (as we all have seen those photographs, ahem) tell me where does the "single hole" thing fit? Think about it before writing again mates, it's tiresome having to explain things again and again without you even reading or trying to understand, and even an aeronautical engineer already told you how it works and calculations are what they are (because in DCS it's calculated, don't forget that).

Edited January 29, 2023 by Ala13_ManOWar

[grafspee]

@Ala13_ManOWar It is symmetric because all plane get ice even. And ice deposit build up in time so it camouflage icing impact on plane even more. 

Couple 20mm rounds in single wing in the instant will noticeable affect how plane flies at all speeds iced wings will affect how plane flies at all speed to, because higher stall speed will reduce achievable G.

Have you seen single hit from 30mm and you still saying that single hit doesn't matter ? Better you listen to yourself.

How many time things were prooved wrong here.

 

Edited January 29, 2023 by grafspee

[OLD CROW]

I lost half wing in a dogfight due a plane crash. Watch the pilot walking over the missed half wing once I landed.... it gives you a clue how things work in the FM-DM interactions... or lack of them. 

[grafspee]

@OLD CROW I'm not saying that couple holes in wing would down plane, im saying that this would impact how plane fly. As you show on video plane was extremely hard to control when you lost part of the wing and it is harder and harder when speed drops down.

But this works like binary system in DCS if your wing is ripped by bullets it should at least make tendency to stall earlier in high G turn, it is subtle difference but it is.

Wing even with 1% surface removed just can not perform exactly same as brand new wing.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Did you see in the video how it sinks the ill wing close to threshold?? That's how you all of a sudden "notice" that "single hole" which apparently went unnoticed before. Every time, just like that. And it's because? Speed lowers at landing and you notice that lift you lost right there, not a funny place to notice it, definitely not.

 

2 hours ago, grafspee said:

@Ala13_ManOWar It is symmetric because all plane get ice even. And ice deposit build up in time so it camouflage icing impact on plane even more.

Sorry mate but physics doesn't work like that. Yes ice might come to both wings, not symmetrical at all, definitely not, nature is random mate. When it's too much it just falls and it maybe one wing more than the other, of course it can, who said it couldn't, so even better than a stall, you're all of a sudden in a spin, inside clouds. Great place to be, yep .

 

52 minutes ago, grafspee said:

@OLD CROW I'm not saying that couple holes in wing would down plane, im saying that this would impact how plane fly. As you show on video plane was extremely hard to control when you lost part of the wing and it is harder and harder when speed drops down.

But this works like binary system in DCS if your wing is ripped by bullets it should at least make tendency to stall earlier in high G turn, it is subtle difference but it is.

Wing even with 1% surface removed just can not perform exactly same as brand new wing.

And the effect was there the last time I tried mate. Give it a try. Yes a 1% surface "removed" makes it not perform the same, AND IT DOESN'T PERFORM THE SAME. But it's small, really small, you have to make some wilder things than straight and level to notice it. Not to mention as Yo-yo told it's not how aerodynamics works even though in movies and people's minds might seem plausible. Give it a try, make some friend help your wing fill with holes and try keeping it steady at lower speeds. Check your new stall speed . Try to manoeuvre the plane and see what happens. But YOU TRY IT, NOT ME, since it's you claiming something isn't right.

 

And YES, many many times things has been proven wrong right here. Specially like 99% of the alleged bug reports about something wrong which in the end turns out to be lack of proper knowledge of the plane from the OP just talking hearsay . Please mate, I lack memory for other things, but those funny bug jokes some people like to tell are in my mind clear as glass.

 

I said already. TRY IT, TEST IT, RECORD A FLIGHT AND POST THE TRACK, then with whatever you find write a proper bug report. It's easy. There could be something introduced in latests patches, I don't say it couldn't because lately I haven't been flying that much at all. Just look for it and write the damn bug report properly. You know better how it works by now mate. Do it properly and if you find anything I'll be glad to tell you were right. "I think it shouldn't be like that" doesn't prove a thing.

[grafspee]

14 minutes ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Sorry mate but physics doesn't work like that. Yes ice might come to both wings, not symmetrical at all, definitely not, nature is random mate. When it's too much it just falls and it maybe one wing more than the other, of course it can, who said it couldn't, so even better than a stall, you're all of a sudden in a spin, inside clouds. Great place to be, yep .

 That exactly what i am talking about, in DCS one wing damaged won't make any difference at all and this is exact case what you described that ice from one wing just randomly goes off and you are in spin. This is exactly what i have in mind. You are in high G turn and you got your one wing punctured by single 20mm,  since you are at edge of envelop, this slight lift reduction on damaged wing, will launch you straight in to spin, it is subtle but, you were on the edge.

Edited January 29, 2023 by grafspee