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Will we get early Navy Sidewinders and Sparrows for use with the early model F-14A?


Aries144
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AIM-9D, AIM-9H, AIM-9G, and AIM-7E? These were all in inventory in 1974 when the F-14 entered service and I assume all were able to be launched by the F-14?

I'm anxious to see the 60s/early 70s missiles implemented into the game to start some Vietnam War era servers.

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1 hour ago, Aries144 said:

AIM-9D, AIM-9H, AIM-9G, and AIM-7E? These were all in inventory in 1974 when the F-14 entered service and I assume all were able to be launched by the F-14?

I'm anxious to see the 60s/early 70s missiles implemented into the game to start some Vietnam War era servers.

You need to go read the threads again because that is not the jet represented. The "earlier" F-14A will still be early/mid 1980s, and no the F-14 was not set up to simply run every previous variant of weapons in inventory.

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Your rude reply is uncalled for. I'm glad you have hours every day to peruse forums like this one, I don't. The last time I checked in, the variant being talked about was a mid 70's variant, based on the version sold to Iran.

It's perfectly reasonable to assume that an aircraft introduced in 1974 would be capable of launching AIM-9D, G, and H. The D was the most advanced heat seeker in Navy service until the introduction of the G in 1970 and the H was only introduced in 72. If you have specific knowledge that all earlier weapons were replaced in service by the latest available to date, perhaps consider posting that instead of wasting the time of every person who reads this thread with your haughty and ill informing response.

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8 minutes ago, Aries144 said:

Your rude reply is uncalled for.

Only rudeness I see is your lazy attitude.

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On 1/25/2023 at 1:19 AM, Aries144 said:

AIM-9D, AIM-9H, AIM-9G, and AIM-7E? These were all in inventory in 1974 when the F-14 entered service and I assume all were able to be launched by the F-14?

I'm anxious to see the 60s/early 70s missiles implemented into the game to start some Vietnam War era servers.

For the 95-GR you can probably expect to see the AIM-7E-4 and the AIM-9J(?) and the AIM-54A.

For the AIM-7E-4, we should be getting an E-2 on the Phantom and AFAIK the E-4 is an E-2 compatible with the AN/AWG-9. Similar story for the AIM-9J which should also be on the Phantom.

For the 135-GR (early), that'll still be mid 80s where all the current stores (apart from the AIM-7P, AN/AAQ-25 LANTIRN and GBU-24B/B) will be accurate (though note that from a strict historical accuracy standpoint, the Tomcat wasn't cleared for AG stuff until the mid 90s, despite previously having the capability to do so).


Edited by Northstar98
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54 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

For the 95-GR you can probably expect to see the AIM-7E-4 and the AIM-9J(?) and the AIM-54A.

For the AIM-7E-4, we should be getting an E-2 on the Phantom and AFAIK the E-4 is an E-2 compatible with the AN/AWG-9. Similar story for the AIM-9J which should also be on the Phantom.

For the 135-GR (early), that'll still be mid 80s where the current weaponry (apart from the AIM-7P, AN/AAQ-25 LANTIRN and GBU-24B/B) will be accurate.

Thank you, I appreciate your taking the time to respond.

Just to offer a quick note, I think you'll find the AIM-9J is an Air Force only variant of the Sidewinder. The US Navy used the B, D, H, G, and then the "unified" sidewinders along with the Air Force from the L onwards. Might you have meant the AIM-9H?

That brings up an interesting bit of trivia: did the Navy ever use the P model? I know the Air Force bought several thousand of them to use for "low value targets," but I'm not sure if the Navy did or perhaps just used leftover Hs for a similar purpose or maybe simply converted totally to all aspect and never looked looked back.

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1 hour ago, Aries144 said:

Thank you, I appreciate your taking the time to respond.

Just to offer a quick note, I think you'll find the AIM-9J is an Air Force only variant of the Sidewinder.

Indeed it is, however the 95-GR is supposed to represent an IRIAF aircraft and they use the AIM-9J (so far from what I've seen in very limited research they were delivered with only the AIM-54A available and so they retrofitted their existing AIM-7s and AIM-9s from their Phantoms for use in their Tomcats).


Edited by Northstar98

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I have seen pictures of an Iranian F-14 with AIM-9P's. The AIM-54A's are correct. They retrofitted or supplied their ''Persian Cats'' with their old F-4's AIM-7E-4 Sparrows and later when the AIM-54A's got lost in storage or war they tried to impliment MIM-23 Hawk missiles by changing the AWG-9's CW-illuminator to search for aerial targets.

Even in 2009 we have seen AIM-9P's on the un-modernised F-14's (not the AM upgrade from what I think is 2012).

 

Total order:

1974: 30 A-model Tomcats with spare parts, replacement engines + 424 AIM-64A's

Mid 1974: (six months later) they made a second order of 50 extra Tomcats and 290 AIM-54's. (not all missiles came because of the 1978/79 revolution)

1982: Iran-Lebanon hostage crisis, USA made a deal to sell AIM-54's (unknown number or how/if they got them) and bombracks for the Tomcats. (only 4 were modified to carry bombs what I know, of at that time atleast)

TLDR = To answer your question I have heard from a different forum post that the Sidewinders the F-14 Iran came with was the AIM-9P-3's because they already had P-1's and P-2's from their F-4's. Also after 1978 they had a hard time getting new imports but they got replacements by Israel/black markets and other sources to make up their aging F-14's. Later when we see the ''too modernized'' versions we would say russia or china and even home grown developments to cover everything from weapons and parts etc... Which we won't get for good reasons. (I have not made enough research to see if 110% of this is correct)

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Again, the US version of the -95GR was only WISHED for, the "Early" F-14A as laid out by the Heatblur devs and pointed to in the FAQ, is still a 135GR but from the 80s. Hence, I continue to use "Earlier" because it is NOT a -70 or -75 as built and introduced around '72-'74. At most it's been petitioned to allow for the removal of the ALQ-126 jammers and an ALQ-100 only option for the TCS, which would allow you to functionally get as close to a -95 as we'd get, but it is not the roadmapped, acknowledged variant.

The only iteration close to the -95GR will be the IRIAF jet, which functionally will still be the 135 with some systems turned off like TCS, reduced jamming strength, no mounting external fuel tanks, etc.

There's also a difference between "a weapon could technically be carried" and that weapon being within the scope of the time represented by the F-14 modules. Not to mention if ED has not created/implemented said older versions of the weapons, then you're asking HB to stop and focus on recreating older versions of weapons which ED will have to take over anyways, and then figure out how they were implemented in the aircraft, symbology as needed, and any other functional differences in how the weapons are employed.

 

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Like I guess if we wanna be this level of super pedantic about what is realistic or not, no skin pre-1987 should be on any tomcat we have in game right now. Since the -135 blocks all never existed pre-1987. No 70s skins should be allowed right now, nothing from the first Libya shoot downs etc….

Kinda think AIM-9D/G/H is perfectly fine as an option on any of the tomcats we have in game. The missiles don’t exist yet but whenever they do of course they should be on the F-14.

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11 hours ago, near_blind said:

000-F-14A-VF-51-Ericksson-81.jpg

AIM-9H on a Tomcat in the 1980s. We've hit our accuracy quota, let the lua editing commence. 


H should be the cutoff.  First cruise birds carried 9H in support of Frequent Wind, 7500+ new rounds built, plus another half that in conversion kits for Gs- they'd have run out of targets before they ran out of shots to take. 

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11 hours ago, KlarSnow said:

Like I guess if we wanna be this level of super pedantic about what is realistic or not, no skin pre-1987 should be on any tomcat we have in game right now. Since the -135 blocks all never existed pre-1987. No 70s skins should be allowed right now, nothing from the first Libya shoot downs etc….

Ignoring the obvious irrelevancy and whataboutism of this common talking point, how would you even go about enforcing such a thing? No user liveries allowed? Locking down the livery files? They sound like brilliant ideas (not).


Edited by Northstar98
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Afaik the info we have says it's basically the USN AIM-9 variants from the AIM-9D onwards that it carried. But adding them as a 3rd party doesn't really make sense but if they're added by ED we might as well imo.

Afaik the "complete" list would be the AIM-9D, AIM-9G, AIM-9H, AIM-9L and AIM-9M.

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1 hour ago, Northstar98 said:

Ignoring the obvious irrelevancy and whataboutism of this common talking point, how would you even go about enforcing such a thing? No user liveries allowed? Locking down the livery files? They sound like brilliant ideas (not).

No one's seriously advocating yeeting skins, but It goes to the argument of what is "realism". We have a late 80s jet with upgrades from the early 2000s. Is it a 2000s jet? Is it an 80s jet? If the former, why do we have AIM-7Fs and AIM-54As? If the latter, where from comes the BOL, lantirn and ALR-67? In either case why can I dress it up in an officially distributed skin as a 70s CAG jet loaded to the hilt with MAK-79s?

 

I imagine the answer is because it is at least theoretically possible, and it adds playability to the aircraft. As would rear aspect Navy heaters 😀

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14 hours ago, near_blind said:

No one's seriously advocating yeeting skins

No, but it is a talking point that's seemingly always brought up in discussions like this, with the usual logic being along the lines of "x is unrealistic, so [insert whatever here] should be too", without actually justifying why, especially when x usually isn't relevant - liveries and missions/scenarios seemingly being the most common mentioned.

14 hours ago, near_blind said:

, but It goes to the argument of what is "realism". We have a late 80s jet with upgrades from the early 2000s. Is it a 2000s jet? Is it an 80s jet? If the former, why do we have AIM-7Fs and AIM-54As?

Were the 7F and 54As out of inventory at the time? If they weren't, nothing is inconsistent with it being a jet from the late 90s/early 2000s.

Though note I never argued against early sidewinders on the early As.

14 hours ago, near_blind said:

In either case why can I dress it up in an officially distributed skin as a 70s CAG jet loaded to the hilt with MAK-79s?

Because not being able to do the former would probably entail what I described, for the latter, no idea.

But again, I never argued against early sidewinders for the early As.


Edited by Northstar98
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On 1/25/2023 at 7:00 AM, Northstar98 said:

Indeed it is, however the 95-GR is supposed to represent an IRIAF aircraft and they use the AIM-9J (so far from what I've seen in very limited research they were delivered with only the AIM-54A available and so they retrofitted their existing AIM-7s and AIM-9s from their Phantoms for use in their Tomcats).

 

Ah ha! I didn't know that. That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for the correction.

10 hours ago, Naquaii said:

Afaik the info we have says it's basically the USN AIM-9 variants from the AIM-9D onwards that it carried. But adding them as a 3rd party doesn't really make sense but if they're added by ED we might as well imo.

Afaik the "complete" list would be the AIM-9D, AIM-9G, AIM-9H, AIM-9L and AIM-9M.

Thank you for taking the time to reply! I'd love to see all those in-game eventually, as it offers some really interesting options for simulating earlier scenarios in the 70's. I love the 60s, 70s, and 80s for the massive variety in aircraft and armament in use through those periods. It might be my version of the "WW2 boomer" thing as I get older, as these were the aircraft and weapons I always heard about from adults and TV when I was growing up.

Thank you for your work.

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