Possibility for the F-15E to fly without CFT

Spurts · February 1, 2023

I don't go on PvP servers but I have seen enough videos of every 4th gen jet beating the pants off of every other 4th gen jet to know that it is 100% the pilot and how they employ their aircraft that make the difference.

draconus · February 2, 2023

On 1/31/2023 at 4:07 PM, Nahen said:

The same applies to determining the target size for the AMRAAM warhead in the F-15C with FC3. For a long time I had no idea how important it could be in terms of the distance of the shot and its effectiveness. Well, probably a lot of people don't even know that it can be set in this module.

You can set target size in FC3 F-15C?

@Tvrdi @SpurtsI don't know where do you get the data and myths about FC3 aircraft. Their systems are simplified, they do lack many controls, alright. But apart from Su-25 (AFM+) all flight models are FF (PFM), period. As for F-15C, its radar simulation is not really that much more simplified vs the ED FF modules like F-16C or F/A-18C. The detection and lock ranges vs RCS, RWS/TWS/STT modes, WVR auto acq modes, boresight mode, gimbals, search patterns in different modes (actual beam direction in time), different PRFs, LOS, notch and doppler filters, earth curvature calculation, lookdown penalty - it's all there. Otoh there's still missing stuff like fully detailed radar signal options or even whole Supersearch mode but there is not one thing (maybe apart from quicker cold start) that gives you any real advantage in MP.

Spurts · February 2, 2023

I said that it was a PFM from the outset, and having "detection and lock ranges vs RCS" be "all there" doesn't invalidate what I said about HOW it functions. You still get the right range under normal operations but how you get there is different. It simplifies the math. Not sure why you think that is a "myth about FC3" aircraft. I don't think I ever said it is bad either.

draconus · February 2, 2023

1 minute ago, Spurts said:

I said that it was a PFM from the outset, and having "detection and lock ranges vs RCS" be "all there" doesn't invalidate what I said about HOW it functions. You still get the right range under normal operations but how you get there is different. It simplifies the math. Not sure why you think that is a "myth about FC3" aircraft. I don't think I ever said it is bad either.

I was refering to this:

Quote

SSM radar functions in a "Target RCS is x and based on R1*(x/1)^.4 display the target when range is within Y" level of simple.

and I said it's much more than that.

Dragon1-1 · February 2, 2023

The F-15C has the opposite problem, there's supposedly a lot of non-MP, non-forum going players who mostly fly air to ground. The F-15C, while surprisingly capable in air to ground, has a reputation as not having anything to that end. They might have judged that a strictly air to ground platform will sell better, and they might even be right.

I'd still love to see the F-15C upgraded to full fidelity. Ideally, it'd come with FAST packs (CFTs) and full selection of air to ground stores. Still, I can see how the F-15E looks like a more appealing product. Also, the F-15C we have is an 80s aircraft (single MFD, no HMD, separate radar screen), and I'd prefer that configuration as opposed to a post-2000 one with a HMD and multiple MFDs.

Coole28 · February 2, 2023

20 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

I'd still love to see the F-15C upgraded to full fidelity. Ideally, it'd come with FAST packs (CFTs) and full selection of air to ground stores.

Fast packs? Full selection of A/G stores? What C models are you basing this on, test beds? Not operational aircraft I’m assuming.

Spurts · February 2, 2023

29 minutes ago, draconus said:

I was refering to this:

SSM radar functions in a "Target RCS is x and based on R1*(x/1)^.4 display the target when range is within Y" level of simple.

and I said it's much more than that.

That's not how I interpreted your statement.

3 hours ago, draconus said:

The detection and lock ranges vs RCS, RWS/TWS/STT modes, WVR auto acq modes, boresight mode, gimbals, search patterns in different modes (actual beam direction in time), different PRFs, LOS, notch and doppler filters, earth curvature calculation, lookdown penalty - it's all there.

everything here can be as simple as changing R1 in my listed equation. because in the end that is how games do radar vs RCS is the R1*(RCS/1)^.4 equation, and FC3 aircraft use the old FC3 (i.e. LO-MAC) sensor setup. The Devs have said this. I remember playing LO-MAC and it seemed like the F-15C radar was the most complex thing in the game because it had so many modes and features, but I am under no illusion that back in 2004 they were programming Rmax=((PsG^2lam^2sig)/(Pemin(4pi)^3))^.25 then computing range gates and determining doppler gates by measuring the shift in the return chirp.

There is a reason it is called a Simplified Systems Model, because the Systems are Simplified. They don't need to go through everything I said if R1*(RCS/1)^.4 works and you can adjust R1 for PRF, RWS/TWS, etc just by putting factors on them. You still can get the exact same performance from a UI level under 99% of conditions. "IF (Vclosure<150kt) THEN (Drop track)" is a lot easier to program than calculating a doppler gate from a shift in the chirp and having it filter out as ground clutter.

If anything, the FC3 Eagle shows how much detailed functionality you can get out of an SSM, it's incredible.

Dragon1-1 · February 2, 2023

2 hours ago, Coole28 said:

Fast packs? Full selection of A/G stores? What C models are you basing this on, test beds? Not operational aircraft I’m assuming.

Aircraft of the 1st TFW during the 80s. Yes, those were operational loadouts. Air to ground was pretty limited to RDJTF, (but very much allowed for all F-15s), but FAST packs were also in common use on Iceland-based Eagles:

They used them because their role was similar to the MiG-25 on the Soviet side, ultra-long range bomber interception. They were also used in other places when required. It's very much a myth that the only Eagle to use those things were tech demonstrators for the Strike Eagle.

Nahen · February 2, 2023

7 hours ago, draconus said:

You can set target size in FC3 F-15C?

Of course

Nahen · February 2, 2023

2 hours ago, Spurts said:

That's not how I interpreted your statement.

There is a reason it is called a Simplified Systems Model, because the Systems are Simplified. They don't need to go through everything I said if R1*(RCS/1)^.4 works and you can adjust R1 for PRF, RWS/TWS, etc just by putting factors on them. You still can get the exact same performance from a UI level under 99% of conditions. "IF (Vclosure<150kt) THEN (Drop track)" is a lot easier to program than calculating a doppler gate from a shift in the chirp and having it filter out as ground clutter.

If anything, the FC3 Eagle shows how much detailed functionality you can get out of an SSM, it's incredible.

Explain to me why and how the F-15C responds to targets with different RCS? Eg Su-27 and Su-33 Detects from a greater - much greater distance than the MiG-29S or Su-30? On what basis and how does it detect the F-15C from completely different distances, the F-16C and the F/A-18 from a different distance? Why do these distances change depending on the angle to his radar?
And finally, tell me how much hours have you flown the F-15C and how well do you know it? Because I'm afraid that you are writing some "heard" from someone, fairy tales that have nothing to do with the current state of this module. And the truth is that 90% of people flying "serious" modules have no idea how the F-15C module behaves in the air and how its radar and dependent elements of the weapon system work. And believe me, what is in the "manual" is not even 40% of how it works in practice.

Coole28 · February 2, 2023

2 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Aircraft of the 1st TFW during the 80s. Yes, those were operational loadouts. Air to ground was pretty limited to RDJTF, (but very much allowed for all F-15s), but FAST packs were also in common use on Iceland-based Eagles:

Interesting to see those CFTs on a C model, never actual seen them on an operational airframe. Guess they had some very niche use after all. I’m curious what the “full selection of A/G stores” entails though. To me “full selection” means “more than just dumb bombs”. I know some C models had CCIP upgrades so they weren’t limited to reference drops, but did any actually have guided weapons?

Nahen · February 2, 2023

1 minute ago, Coole28 said:

Interesting to see those CFTs on a C model, never actual seen them on an operational airframe. Guess they had some very niche use after all. I’m curious what the “full selection of A/G stores” entails though. To me “full selection” means “more than just dumb bombs”. I know some C models had CCIP upgrades so they weren’t limited to reference drops, but did any actually have guided weapons?

NO

At KadenaAFB, laser-guided bombs were reportedly dropped several times, but the targets has been illuminated from the ground.

NRG-Vampire · February 2, 2023

On 1/28/2023 at 2:43 AM, Pede said:

Pics or it didn't happen. A random article on the internet is not a reliable source. For all we know, the article could be written by someone in this forum who was mad their thread got locked lmao.

On 1/28/2023 at 10:35 AM, Deano87 said:

There’s plenty of video out there of Strike eagles flying out of Lakenheath with AA fit and no CFTs. It’s been happening for months.

But as mentioned that probably doesn’t apply to the timeframe of the module we’re getting.

My opinion on this has changed. If units are doing it now I think it would be an interesting and valid thing to add to the module at some point later in development.

But I’m not sure if the juice would be worth the squeeze for the devs, having to totally change the FM etc.

Would be cool to see though.

About FAST Pack on F-15C: used by ZZ, HH, ED, AK, BT, IS, FF etc.

Edited February 2, 2023 by NRG-Vampire

Dragon1-1 · February 2, 2023

50 minutes ago, Coole28 said:

To me “full selection” means “more than just dumb bombs”.

For almost anything pre-1997, it means "dumb bombs, LGBs and CBUs". Possibly rockets, although I'm not sure whether they were allowed on the F-15C, and they almost certainly were never used (though IIRC, they're allowed on the Mudhen). The only other option pre-GPS were Mavs and MITL, which were, at the time, a thing on attack aircraft (or fighter-bombers, like the Phantom). Of course, the Eagle can't self-designate for LGBs, but that just means it requires a JTAC or another aircraft to lase for it.

The air to ground capability should be comparable to the F-14A, only with much better air to ground radar modes, comparable to the F-16. LGBs can be dropped either on INS coordinates visually on a laser pointer (with NVGs, at night), or if attacking armor, by radar.

NRG-Vampire · February 2, 2023

The F-15A/B/C/D with bombs is another (50 years old) story : F-15 Eagle CDIP (continuous(ly) displayed impact point) bombing capability.

Edited February 2, 2023 by NRG-Vampire

Nahen · February 2, 2023

14 minutes ago, NRG-Vampire said:

On 1/28/2023 at 2:43 AM, Pede said:

Pics or it didn't happen. A random article on the internet is not a reliable source. For all we know, the article could be written by someone in this forum who was mad their thread got locked lmao.

I don't see the drama here, however if RAZBAM release the Mudhen without removable CFTs than that will be just not authentic.
Deano87 said: "It’s been happening for months."
FYI: It’s been happening for a decade.
1st and 2nd photo from 2013 (AIRFIGHTERS)
3rd photo from 2015

But you know that these photos have nothing to do with the normal use of these planes? These are photos - one during service work - 605 from Lakenheath in 2013 was in a dilapidated condition as you can see in the photos and in 2015 it came back from the service repainted and renovated. Why do you think she had her CFT taken off?
It has been written about a million times - F-15E until 2022 did not fly operationally without CFT only for service inspections, shows and similar "events". How many more times can write the same thing over and over again?

Likewise, the USAF F-15A/Cs have not flown with CFT except for exceptional testing, training, etc. programs. 90% of F-15C photos with CFT and bombs come from units that participated in research and testing for the development of the F-15E in the 1980s. None of them had ever flown operationally in this configuration. There were such plans, which was written here more than once, but it never worked out beyond some "local" training.

And in two days the next one will come and he will post the same things and tell the same stories.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Nahen

NRG-Vampire · February 2, 2023

I thought we are talking about possibilities:
so
F-15As and Cs already used CFTs (coz of the increased fuel quantity) in the 70s and 80s mainly for long-range over-seas CAP/Intercept operations (4*AIM-9 + 4*AIM-7 + 3*EFT), however F-15A/B/C/Ds do not need CFTs for dropping bombs. TER/MER ejector racks used for that under the wings/centerline pilons: means 3*6 Mk-82s (for example) just like Israeli Eagles do sometimes.

Do you know the first Strike Eagles (protos) come out and flown without CFTs ? Modified F-15Ds too, they used the MER racks as well for bombs (CBUs too).
Strike Eagle/Mudhen does not mean "MUST use/fly with CFTs ONLY"

Edited February 2, 2023 by NRG-Vampire

Lima29 · February 2, 2023

33 minutes ago, Nahen said:

But you know that these photos have nothing to do with the normal use of these planes? These are photos - one during service work - 605 from Lakenheath in 2013 was in a dilapidated condition as you can see in the photos and in 2015 it came back from the service repainted and renovated. Why do you think she had her CFT taken off?
It has been written about a million times - F-15E until 2022 did not fly operationally without CFT only for service inspections, shows and similar "events". How many more times can write the same thing over and over again?

Likewise, the USAF F-15A/Cs have not flown with CFT except for exceptional testing, training, etc. programs. 90% of F-15C photos with CFT and bombs come from units that participated in research and testing for the development of the F-15E in the 1980s. None of them had ever flown operationally in this configuration. There were such plans, which was written here more than once, but it never worked out beyond some "local" training.

And in two days the next one will come and he will post the same things and tell the same stories.

I might find you irritating but you are correct with a lot of what you say on here and for some reason people won’t listen to what you say about the F-15E not operating without the CFTs till recently but with the bits I’ve highlighted from your last post you are wrong & seem to be putting your head in the sand just like you complain about other people not listening to your posts - USAF F-15C’s have flown operationally with CFTs - it’s not fleet- or worldwide and is limited to Iceland & possibly Alaskan based Eagles, but they were not test or training programmes, up there they operationally flew with CFTs fitted.

Nahen · February 2, 2023

28 minutes ago, NRG-Vampire said:

I thought we are talking about possibilities:
so
F-15As and Cs already used CFTs in the 70s and 80s mainly for over-seas CAP/Intercept operations,

Please some proof, document, authorized pilot's account of those "operations".

And for all the rest... Did you know that the USAF has dropped the CFT for the F-15EX for today? And what does it bring?
Again, because I see you have a comprehension problem - No F-15Es have NEVER flown OPERATIONALLY without CFT until 2022.

Here's a picture from 1989 when the first squadron (Seymour Johnson Air Force Base in North Carolina, 4th Tactical Fighter Wing, 336th Tactical Fighter Squadron) reached operational readiness with the F-15E...

https://www.alamy.com/five-members-of-the-336th-tactical-fighter-squadron-4th-tactical-fighter-wing-4th-tfw-salute-during-the-playing-of-the-national-anthem-at-a-ceremony-marking-the-squadrons-conversion-to-f-15e-eagle-aircraft-one-of-which-is-behind-them-the-4th-tfw-is-to-be-the-air-forces-first-operational-f-15e-wing-the-squadron-members-are-from-left-sgt-richard-t-donahue-sgt-glenn-r-strow-staff-sgt-thurmand-bodenheimer-lt-col-robert-t-newell-and-maj-rodney-fitzpatrick-base-seymour-johnson-air-force-base-state-north-carolina-nc-country-united-states-of-america-usa-image504267250.html

Now show me those first non-CFT F-15Es flying operationally...

6 minutes ago, Lima29 said:

I might find you irritating but you are correct with a lot of what you say on here and for some reason people won’t listen to what you say about the F-15E not operating without the CFTs till recently but with the bits I’ve highlighted from your last post you are wrong & seem to be putting your head in the sand just like you complain about other people not listening to your posts - USAF F-15C’s have flown operationally with CFTs - it’s not fleet- or worldwide and is limited to Iceland & possibly Alaskan based Eagles, but they were not test or training programmes, up there they operationally flew with CFTs fitted.

Proof Please?

For now, I can write that I have a UFO in the garage ... more or less that's what you have evidence ...

Edited February 2, 2023 by Nahen

NRG-Vampire · February 2, 2023

No offense. so
Take it as you wish or take it as fictional. I'm done here.
but I leave some thingy more:

How the U.S. F-15s intercepted Russian Bear bombers in the GIUK Gap: tensions and hilarious moments above Iceland - The Aviationist
File:McDonnell Douglas F-15A Eagle of the 43rd TFS intercepts a Tupolev Tu-95 off Alaska (USA), in 1987 (6412403).jpg - Wikimedia Commons

Yep, NOT OPERATIONALLY, but I hope you will see the POSSIBILITIES: F-15C !!!

Edited February 2, 2023 by NRG-Vampire

Nahen · February 2, 2023

24 minutes ago, NRG-Vampire said:

No offense. so
Take it as you wish or take it as fictional. I'm done here.
but I leave some thingy more:

How the U.S. F-15s intercepted Russian Bear bombers in the GIUK Gap: tensions and hilarious moments above Iceland - The Aviationist
File:McDonnell Douglas F-15A Eagle of the 43rd TFS intercepts a Tupolev Tu-95 off Alaska (USA), in 1987 (6412403).jpg - Wikimedia Commons

And now it's starting to look different. F-15A with CFT, intercepting T-95 speaks to me about CFT - fact. I have not seen these photos. As for the F-15C, I still maintain that they did not fly operationally with CFT. All the photos I saw were from tests related to the F-15E program.

The photo with the practice bombs on the F-15C, if I associate this, concrete F-15C with "photo tags", is one of those that were used for tests in the F-15E program. It is not an operationally flying F-15C, but a test one - owned by McDonnell at the time, as far as I remember.
So I don't really know what this is supposed to bring? Tests, tests, tests...

And that the F-15C and A could carry stupid bombs everyone know, and so?

Brah389 · February 3, 2023

Hi guys! Wow! Lots of good conversation here about CFTs! Yes, RAFL has removed CFTs from their training syllabus to experiment DCA without the added weight and drag of the CFT but is not an approved SCL for anything other than training as it does not meet MESL requirements and its not the F-15E's primary role. Combat coded C models have never flown CFTs outside of test because CFTs can't be measured in either ASIP or does not measure on OWS with the exception of the 35th and 87th wing when they owned alert in Iceland but were limited to 3g's. F-15C's never carried bombs, they didn't have an A/G mode in PACS limited by the CP. Each command (ACC/PACAF/USAFE) are all training to a specific syllabus that sometimes may never be used i.e. maritime tactics but you never know what HAF/A3 has up their sleeves.

Lima29 · February 3, 2023

19 hours ago, Nahen said:

And now it's starting to look different. F-15A with CFT, intercepting T-95 speaks to me about CFT - fact. I have not seen these photos. As for the F-15C, I still maintain that they did not fly operationally with CFT. All the photos I saw were from tests related to the F-15E program.

Well the proof is actually right there, the photo that has been posted above (labelled as F-15A intercept Tu-95) has actually been mis-labelled - if you look at a better quality image of it you can see that the serial numbers of the two aircraft are 80-0030 & 80-0040 both of which were, are & always have been F-15C’s.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Lima29

Nahen · February 3, 2023

It is puzzling that talking quite recently with one of the pilots who flew the F-15C in the late 1980s and early 1990s and was stationed in Keflavik at the time, when I asked him if they flew with CFT, he said no. That yes, he saw several CFTs mounted on several F-15s in the base, but he does not remember that the entire squadron flew with them. So I do not know. I am still not convinced that they are used except in some exceptional situations. The next time I meet him, I'll have to press the subject harder.It is puzzling that talking quite recently with one of the pilots who flew the F-15C in the late 1980s and early 1990s and was stationed in Keflavik at the time, when I asked him if they flew with CFT, he said no. That yes, he saw several CFTs mounted on several F-15s in the base, but he does not remember that the entire squadron flew with them. So I do not know. I am still not convinced that they are used except in some exceptional situations. The next time I meet him, I'll have to press the subject harder.

Lima29 · February 3, 2023

If you Google image search for F-15Cs from 57th FIS (the Iceland based Squadron), every photo that comes up has CFTs fitted.

Edited February 3, 2023 by Lima29

Possibility for the F-15E to fly without CFT

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