Mission 1 Feedback

[FMBluecher]

Just finished the fam flight and had a couple of thoughts to share:

1. Is going into mil during the controls wipeout correct? Even with the wheel brakes jammed down, those big F-14B engines were still accelerating me!

2. I wanted a lot more clarification from Paco on what I was supposed to be doing during the wingover. I almost posted here before flying it, because even after reading the briefing pdf, rereading it, and attempting the maneuver multiple times on my own before flying the mission, I still felt confused as to what I was supposed to be doing. I flew the mission anyway, assuming that Paco would probably explain it more during the mission, but that wasn't the case.

Am I supposed to be maintaining 2-3 Gs during the turn? Am I not pulling at all and just letting the bank of the aircraft do all of the turning? Where should my throttles be; am I attempting to maintain a certain airspeed, or a certain AoA, or something else? Am I attempting to keep my nose at 45 degrees up for as long as I can, or just initially and then letting the nose fall as I begin the turn? Am I only supposed to let the nose fall at the 90? Am I supposed to be 45 degrees nose-down during the descent? Again, where are my throttles during the descent (or is that just a "manage your speed so that you come out at 350 kts" situation)?

3. The Half-Cuban was bugged on my playthrough. He told me I screwed it up and to try it again while I was still in the middle of attempting the maneuver (I think I was rolling over after achieving 45 degrees nose down), and then, once I got back to 350 kts at 15K feet to retry it, he said, "Nicely done" and moved on with the training. Possibly related, my end-of-mission score breakdown said that I had "sloppy loops" even though I performed the actual loops well.

4. [ORIGINAL, SEE EDIT] How exactly are we supposed to avoid an unsat for fuel management? I was down to only 600 lbs at the end even though I had been trying extremely hard to conserve fuel. I had read here that others had trouble with fuel management during this mission, and I was determined to not let that happen, but it sure happened anyway!

[EDIT] After thinking about it a bit more, I do realize that I did make a couple of mistakes that might have contributed to the fuel management situation--the big one being that I didn't realize that I had to end the level turn maneuver on my own (I was waiting for Paco to tell me I was done). Since it's the very first maneuver you do, it might be worth putting a note somewhere saying "end the turn when you're done, Paco will not tell you when to end it" or something to that effect.

Edited January 28, 2023 by FMBluecher

[Roosterfeet]

I had exactly the same experience except for the half cuban which I definitely screwed up. Never got grades because I ran out of gas. I suspect the fuel issue might have to do with my inability to execute the maneuvers quickly and precisely which keeps me in blower too long and prompts Paco to tell me to try again when we don't have the fuel.

I really need someone to post a video of a correctly executed wingover. I think I get the basic idea from the description in the brief but there are too many details that I'm missing. I'm confident that I can get the rest down with some practice.

 

 

[FMBluecher]

4 minutes ago, Roosterfeet said:

I really need someone to post a video of a correctly executed wingover. I think I get the basic idea from the description in the brief but there are too many details that I'm missing. I'm confident that I can get the rest down with some practice.

Yeah, it's just the details on that one. It just comes as such a contrast--all the other maneuvers are very clearly explained, and if I screw up, I know what I'm doing wrong. The wingover, though, I just don't understand exactly what I'm trying to do, so I don't know what I'm screwing up!

[Jayhawk1971]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb Roosterfeet:

I really need someone to post a video of a correctly executed wingover.

Here you go.  

[Reflected]

@FMBluecher good questions, thanks for posting, and for posting in a separate thread so people can find it more easily

 

1) - brakes. I can't do anything about the Tomcat FM. I reported this to Heatblur already. Until then, just apply less power.

2) Wingover - leave the throttles where they were to maintain 350 knots. Then as Paco says: nose up to 45 degrees, then keep pulling and program in some turn all the way to 90 degrees at 90 degrees of turn. Let the speed bleed and the nose fall back through the horizon and recover at the opposite heading, 15k feet, 350 knots. You're the guy with the stick and throttle, modulate them to make this happen. Sometimes I find I need to overbank a little too. I think Spud did a good job of it.

3) This is what happens when you start the maneuver while the 'do not start the maneuver yet' message is on screen. This missions need super complex triggers and as such they are not flexible. Hence the on screen messages. Fly level at the briefed alt/speed until instructed to start, and finish the maneuvers wings and nose level. Nice and clean.

4) Fuel management. I wasn't there with you, I don't know what you did, but I tested this mission a 100 times, and then my testers, nobody ever ran out of fuel, I never landed below 2k lbs. Just follow Paco's instructions, and don't apply more power than it's required to keep the desired speeds. Don't descend in blower or mil power for example. It's just the fam flight, better figure this out now, later you'll have to fly hundreds of miles over open water and then find your way back to the carrier, fuel management will come with a much higher pucker factor

Edited January 28, 2023 by Reflected

[FMBluecher]

9 minutes ago, Reflected said:

@FMBluecher good questions, thanks for posting, and for posting in a separate thread so people can find it more easily

 

1) - brakes. I can't do anything about the Tomcat FM. I reported this to Heatblur already. Until then, just apply less power.

2) Wingover - leave the throttles where they were to maintain 350 knots. Then as Paco says: nose up to 45 degrees, then keep pulling and program in some turn all the way to 90 degrees at 90 degrees of turn. Let the speed bleed and the nose fall back through the horizon and recover at the opposite heading, 15k feet, 350 knots. You're the guy with the stick and throttle, modulate them to make this happen. Sometimes I find I need to overbank a little too. I think Spud did a good job of it.

3) This is what happens when you start the maneuver while the 'do not start the maneuver yet' message is on screen. This missions need super complex triggers and as such they are not flexible. Hence the on screen messages. Fly level at the briefed alt/speed until instructed to start, and finish the maneuvers wings and nose level. Nice and clean.

4) Fuel management. I wasn't there with you, I don't know what you did, but I tested this mission a 100 times, and then my testers, nobody ever ran out of fuel, I never landed below 2k lbs. Just follow Paco's instructions, and don't apply more power than it's required to keep the desired speeds. Don't descend in blower or mil power for example. It's just the fam flight, better figure this out now, later you'll have to fly hundreds of miles over open water and then find your way back to the carrier, fuel management will come with a much higher pucker factor

 

Thanks for the quick response!

1) Ah, makes sense. Is this in the docs somewhere? I thought I read them fairly thoroughly and didn't see anything but I might have missed it.

2) So I'm maintaining the pull throughout? That's probably what I was doing wrong. Might watch Spud's video just to be sure. I usually avoid watching other people play your campaigns because they're so good I know I'm going to buy them anyway, and I don't want spoilers!

3) Huh. I could have sworn I waited until I got the instructions to start, but maybe I jumped the gun a little.

4) My guess is that for this one, it was the thing I pointed to in my edit, plus the fact that I screwed something up in the Mach run and probably had to stay in blower too long.

Thanks again!

[Reflected]

Yeah, Spud did a much better job of the wingover than I usually do.

Another pro tip: you don't always have to be in full blower. E.g. during the turns, it's sometimes enough to maintain your energy at min blower.

[Roosterfeet]

Thanks for the link to Spud's video, Jayhawk. That really helped. Finished the fam flight with an Average rating and I was happy to get it.

[Reflected]

Nice, well done!

[FMBluecher]

Ended with an Average on the second attempt, and also felt like it was hard work to get it! Still don't really understand what I'm supposed to do during a wingover (even after watching Spud do it 3 times), or, frankly, what the point of a wingover is, but hey.

This time, no issues with the half-Cuban. Guess I must have jumped the gun on the first attempt after all, because this time everything worked properly.

This time I ended up with 2000 lbs more fuel! The only two things I did differently were a) actually just ending the flat turn at 360 degrees and not just keeping going waiting for Paco to tell me to stop and b) modulating the throttle a little to just maintain M1.3 during the mach run. Wouldn't have thought that would have made such a huge difference, but it sure did!

[RimanDk]

2 hours ago, FMBluecher said:

...or, frankly, what the point of a wingover is, but hey.

...and b) modulating the throttle a little to just maintain M1.3 during the mach run. Wouldn't have thought that would have made such a huge difference, but it sure did!

Same point as anything else on the fam flight: to get a feeling for how the plane does in different situations.

Great tip, the bottom one!

22 hours ago, Reflected said:

4) Fuel management. I wasn't there with you, I don't know what you did, but I tested this mission a 100 times, and then my testers, nobody ever ran out of fuel, I never landed below 2k lbs.

I'm willing to wager you are a far more experienced - and meticulous! - flier than most of your customers*. I've run through this mission 4 times now, and I ran out of fuel once and got a bad remark for landing with 1600lbs left in the tanks on a second occasion, where I got a BELOW AVERAGE. The latter is ironic, for I was trying to make up for my first, AVERAGE run =). The difference was that I was asked to re-do the left-hand 360, the loop and the first wing-over (in my better run, I had to repeat the level turn as well as the wing-over, but not the loop).

That, and I got confused by the Mach run portion. You do as instructed, but there is no voice-over telling you when have satisfied the criteria. I did my right turn, did my left turn, got no confirmation and did them a second time. Got pretty close to hitting the mountains at Mach 1.5... only when I backed out of it and leveled out on my own, did the sound file play. I guess the trigger is going back to wings level and/or pulling out of blower. Had I realized that sooner, I would probably have had more juice to limp home with...

*Sidenote: this campaign is brutal! I know you warned us in advance, but... mission 2 is absolutely spanking me raw... I dare not think of 3... (and no, it's not the AAR, it's keeping formation through the turns)

Edited January 29, 2023 by RimanDk

[FMBluecher]

20 minutes ago, RimanDk said:

Same point as anything else on the fam flight: to get a feeling for how the plane does in different situations.

Sure--but the difference with the wingover is that for every other maneuver, once I've done it, I see why I did it. I understand how the other maneuvers apply to flying the Tomcat well. What I don't get about the wingover is what I'm supposed to get out of it. Like, what other flying conditions does it either replicate or help me to do well? It seems artificial and weird, whereas the others have clear analogues to other flying situations, and I understand how they help me to become a better pilot.

Note that this isn't a criticism. I'm sure there's a reason they taught this in the Tomcat RAG, I just don't see what it is. And maybe the fact that I still don't really understand how to execute it properly is preventing me from understanding what I'm supposed to learn from doing it!

Edited January 29, 2023 by FMBluecher

[RimanDk]

1 minute ago, FMBluecher said:

Sure--but the difference with the wingover is that for every other maneuver, once I've done it, I see why I did it. I understand how the other maneuvers apply to flying the Tomcat well. What I don't get about the wingover is what I'm supposed to get out of it. Like, what other flying conditions does it either replicate or help me to do well? It seems artificial and weird, whereas the others have clear analogues to other flying situations, and I understand how they help me to become a better pilot.

Note that this isn't a criticism. I'm sure there's a reason they taught this in the Tomcat RAG, I just don't see what it is. And maybe the fact that I still don't really understand how to execute it properly is preventing me from understanding what I'm supposed to learn from doing it!

 

I get that. Its value is not readily apparent and I'm not sure I have the full answer to that.

My personal takeaway is a greater understanding and appreciation for how it handles at low-speed, high-bank. At a certain point, that nose just comes down dramatically. I also have a better feeling for how it will recover from such a situation... how much vertical space I need for it, etc.

To me, that's all got some carry-over to BFM.

[Reflected]

3 hours ago, FMBluecher said:

Ended with an Average on the second attempt, and also felt like it was hard work to get it! Still don't really understand what I'm supposed to do during a wingover (even after watching Spud do it 3 times), or, frankly, what the point of a wingover is, but hey.

This time, no issues with the half-Cuban. Guess I must have jumped the gun on the first attempt after all, because this time everything worked properly.

This time I ended up with 2000 lbs more fuel! The only two things I did differently were a) actually just ending the flat turn at 360 degrees and not just keeping going waiting for Paco to tell me to stop and b) modulating the throttle a little to just maintain M1.3 during the mach run. Wouldn't have thought that would have made such a huge difference, but it sure did!

Well done! Yes that’s the key, only use as much power as required for the briefed speed. Sometimes min burner is enough too (turns). 

Also, you gotta listen to Paco carefully guys:

if he says a 360 turn you stop the turn at 360 and go wings level. If he says a 45 degree left and right turn you do that and then go wings level. Otherwise you’ll run out of fuel. 
 

a level flight is usually a good indicator that you finished the maneuver. For both Paco and the triggers. 

[FMBluecher]

1 hour ago, Reflected said:

Also, you gotta listen to Paco carefully guys:

if he says a 360 turn you stop the turn at 360 and go wings level. If he says a 45 degree left and right turn you do that and then go wings level. Otherwise you’ll run out of fuel.

Yup, I think the issue I had is that I'm so inured to DCS missions where the trainer says "OK, that's 360 degrees, now level off" and I didn't even think about the possibility that I might actually know that I've done a 360-degree turn!

[RimanDk]

8 hours ago, Reflected said:

Well done! Yes that’s the key, only use as much power as required for the briefed speed. Sometimes min burner is enough too (turns). 

Also, you gotta listen to Paco carefully guys:

if he says a 360 turn you stop the turn at 360 and go wings level. If he says a 45 degree left and right turn you do that and then go wings level. Otherwise you’ll run out of fuel. 
 

a level flight is usually a good indicator that you finished the maneuver. For both Paco and the triggers. 

Ah! So, "wings level" means level flight as well? I took that to mean "no bank angle".

Okay, fair enough. I guess there is still some lingo I need to get used to!

Cheers.

[Reflected]

2 minutes ago, RimanDk said:

Ah! So, "wings level" means level flight as well? I took that to mean "no bank angle".

Okay, fair enough. I guess there is still some lingo I need to get used to!

Cheers.

Wings level is no bank, level flight is 0 on VSI. When the exercise involves climbing or descending, Paco will realize you finished it when you stop climbing or descending. When it involves banking, he'll know when you're done when you stopped banking. Simple as that  

[RimanDk]

12 minutes ago, Reflected said:

Wings level is no bank, level flight is 0 on VSI. When the exercise involves climbing or descending, Paco will realize you finished it when you stop climbing or descending. When it involves banking, he'll know when you're done when you stopped banking. Simple as that  

Perfect! Thanks for that!

Believe me, I listen to Paco carefully - and stop the mission to read back the message history whenever I am in doubt - but listening to and understanding are not always the same thing... particularly when you have no formal training in any of it and are just an enthusiastic, self-taught amateur =). As much as I would love to take your grad-sheet challenge, it's pretty evident to me that I'm not on a level yet, where it would make sense to do so. Instead, I'll use the first few missions in this campaign as a training tool to learn and practice those fundamental skills I'm missing (primarily precision flying).

Cheers - and sorry, FMBleucher, for butting into your thread  

Edited January 30, 2023 by RimanDk

[Reflected]

No worries, I understand. I've flown these missions a 100 times so it's easy for me to know, but the first couple of times I also had to pause and read back the message to fully understand in order to perform the maneuver as expected. Lots of 'a-haa' moments.

[FMBluecher]

4 hours ago, RimanDk said:

Cheers - and sorry, FMBleucher, for butting into your thread

Hey, feel free! I'm glad I'm not the only one getting something out of it.

[ATC31501]

I am thinking about buying this campaign.  However, I just bought F14 few days ago.  Therefore, I a m going to wait till I am comfortable with it.  

As I read you guy description,  I think the following link might explain a little.  However, the requirements are different.  The maneuver is called lazy eight in civil.world.

https://www.cfinotebook.net/notebook/maneuvers-and-procedures/airborne/lazy-eights

take a look, is that similar what mission requirement?

Edited February 14, 2023 by ATC31501

[sze5003]

Just failed my first attempt at the mission - completed all of the maneuvers to varying degrees of success, but ran out of fuel after turning on to final after the carrier break and downwind. Definitely underestimated how much I'd have to be keeping an eye on the fuel state! I was trying to conserve fuel all the way home, but it just wasn't to be this time. Excellent first impressions though, this is really going to force me to hone my skills as a pilot.

The same thing happened to me! I'm glad I was able to get through the mission but I'm not even upset. I'm learning to improve with each retry. Having some issues with axis interference because I'm using a quest pro and I have a wifi 6e router right next to my PC which apparently interferes with my vkb mcg pro making the axis movement jumpy..I'll manage.

I love these types of campaigns because hands on with instructions like this is how I like to learn.