Video card suggestion please

[Beirut]

I'm a bit behind the times on video card tech, and I'm curious about the "don't bother" line in the sand I should avoid crossing.

 

I have a 3700X/32GB RAM/2060 Super. I fly at 1440p, 144hz screen, and tend to fly small missions or just fly for the fun of it. So it's safe to say I don't need a 4090. But I like good eye candy and wouldn't mind a few more FPS, especially with the Strike Eagle and new maps. Where is the cutoff point where spending the money would just be a waste?

Edit: I have a good quality 750W PSU and other than getting more RAM, I don't want to change any other parts this year.

Thank you.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Beirut

[LucShep]

It depends on how much you're willing to spend on the GPU (= video card) and how long you intend to keep it.
It also depends on how you feel about buying used products (far better deals, IMHO), or if it really needs to be a brand new product (safer, but you pay a lot more for it).

You want to upgrade from an RTX2060 Super 8GB and have a 750W PSU.... in my similar experience, anything less than an RTX3080 10GB will feel like a "meh" upgrade.  
There are AMD equivalents to it, like the RX 6800XT 16GB, which may be found cheaper. But I don't recommend it for DCS (the game is very Nvidia biased, plus the transition to AMD drivers can be a bit fussy for those coming from Nvidia, like you are).

I sound like a broken record everytime a similar post to yours comes up in these forums but, as of today, used graphics cards (specifically RTX 3080 10GB or 12GB, and RTX3090 24GB) is where the value is at, IMHO. Because the "brand new tax" in the current insane GPU market for higher-end products is absolutely horrible.

I see you're located in Canada, so I'll use CAD currency to make a point...

• RTX3080 10GB brand new = $1.300 CAD (+/-)
• RTX3080 10GB used (2nd hand) = $800 CAD (+/-)

You see, the main problem is the GPU market is in a pitiful state, and I do not think a brand new RTX3080 10 or 12 GB is worth the price that they still go for.
Therefore, I recommend a used RTX3080 10GB or 12GB on Ebay and etc. Plenty at "buy it now" also with "or make an offer" (always better if you can negotiate).

If you decide to go that route, be patient and look for those from trusted sellers and at the right price (always enquire them), they're there for sure. 
If you see a good deal and need an opinion, feel free to drop me a message.

Edited February 17, 2023 by LucShep

[Beirut]

7 hours ago, LucShep said:

It depends on how much you're willing to spend on the GPU (= video card) and how long you intend to keep it.

 

$1300 tax-in just puts me in 3080 territory. And for me that's a chuck o' change and is about max. The card would be for a good four-years. I occasionally play other games, but DCS is 100% of my interest as far as new hardware goes. I can turn the settings down in other stuff, but turning down the settings in DCS is unacceptable. The card has to be new and from Amazon or Newegg. I'm set in my ways at my age.

 

I suppose it boils down to whether the 3070 is good enough or the extra couple of hundred for the 3080 is best. Again, small SP missions, 1440p, good eye candy, is my thing. That's how I fly. 

 

[LucShep]

On 2/17/2023 at 11:37 AM, Beirut said:

 

$1300 tax-in just puts me in 3080 territory. And for me that's a chuck o' change and is about max. The card would be for a good four-years. I occasionally play other games, but DCS is 100% of my interest as far as new hardware goes. I can turn the settings down in other stuff, but turning down the settings in DCS is unacceptable. The card has to be new and from Amazon or Newegg. I'm set in my ways at my age.

 

I suppose it boils down to whether the 3070 is good enough or the extra couple of hundred for the 3080 is best. Again, small SP missions, 1440p, good eye candy, is my thing. That's how I fly. 

 

Unless that brand new RTX3070 8GB (or 3070Ti 8GB) is at a good discounted price (like $750 CAD or whereabouts), you'd be wise to pass it up and grab the RTX3080 10GB or 12GB, as it's considerably faster and what I'd consider "the minimum ideal" for DCS right now.

My case, for example.
I had an RX5700XT 8GB, which is on par with an RTX2070 8GB (similar to your RTX2060 Super). It became nearly unusable with DCS, while still okay for other sims/games I use.
I've upgraded to an RTX3060Ti 8GB (within RTX3070 stock performance after undervolting), I gained about 25% performance - not bad at all, but in time disapointment became evident considering the salty price, even knowing it was to be an interim upgrade. It was really good (even at 4K) while DCS 2.56 was around, but it was constantly choking once DCS 2.7 and its later OB updates were out (and can only imagine now with the even heavier DCS 2.8).

Then upgraded to an RTX3090 24GB (about 10% faster than an RTX3080 10GB), at stock clocks/voltages it was imediately 50% (+/-) faster than the RTX3060Ti with most sims/games I use, including DCS. It increased a bit even more, after undervolting (another 5%+ gained, and something that anyone should consider doing to their own GPU).
That's a tremendous (really huge) gain in performance, a propper upgrade, far more than even I expected after so many months watching benchmarks and reviews.
If I knew better, I wouldn't have had the RTX3060Ti in the first place. BTW, the RTX3090 was bought used (700,00 €ur = $1000 CAD).

Take that for what you will, but I think it should be in your mind (and anyone else's) if you want to invest on a new GPU, and intending to keep it for the next 4 years.
Getting a "okay" GPU, just because it's a bit more affordable, isn't really a good investiment if in just two major updates of DCS it isn't going to cut it anymore...
So, get the very best you can get for your budget. Used (2nd hand), if need be.

Concern with miners and tricksters messing the used market is there but, right now, a 2nd hand GPU (mint condition) for 2/3 to 1/2 of the brand new price is the way to go, IMO.

Edited February 21, 2023 by LucShep

[Beirut]

I'm actually looking at a 4070ti now. I must be out of my mind. But it's cheaper than a 3080 and faster than a 3090. Go figure.

[LucShep]

3 hours ago, Beirut said:

I'm actually looking at a 4070ti now. I must be out of my mind. But it's cheaper than a 3080 and faster than a 3090. Go figure.

They're going down in price and will slowly continue so, because people aren't buying them (too expensive for a 12GB 192-bit mem bus GPU) unlike what Nvidia expected.
Regardless, it'll be a stellar GPU for 1440P as you intend it, so go for it if you can afford it. Or wait a bit more, prices are expected to be better within next couple of months. 

Edited February 22, 2023 by LucShep

[Beirut]

7 hours ago, LucShep said:

They're going down in price and will slowly continue so, because people aren't buying them (too expensive for a 12GB 192-bit mem bus GPU) unlike what Nvidia expected.
Regardless, it'll be a stellar GPU for 1440P as you intend it, so go for it if you can afford it. Or wait a bit more, prices are expected to be better within next couple of months. 

 

 

I can afford it, it's right at the edge of my budget, but I'd feel like a bit of a tool spending that much on a video card just for DCS.

 

But on the other hand, what else would you buy a video card for? 

 

 

[Lurker]

12 hours ago, Beirut said:

I'm actually looking at a 4070ti now. I must be out of my mind. But it's cheaper than a 3080 and faster than a 3090. Go figure.

only if you game at 1080p or 1440p. That 192bit bus really hurts it at bigger resolutions and VR. 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Lurker

[Beirut]

8 hours ago, Lurker said:

only if you game at 1080p or 1440p. That 192bit bus really hurts it at bigger resolutions and VR. 

 

 

I'll be at 1440p for the duration. One thing I was wondering is what kind of increases in fps we might see with any core updates. Guess it's best to at least wait until the possible update on March 1 to see if that bring anything new, multi-threading or what have you.

[BitMaster]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Beirut:

 

wait until the possible update on March 1 to see if that bring anything new, multi-threading or what have you.

Thought you stopped drinking

[Beirut]

1 minute ago, BitMaster said:

Thought you stopped drinking

 

What on Earth gave you that idea?

 

I have far less years ahead of me than behind and I have no intention of stopping now.  

[Beirut]

I've been watching a bunch of videos of people totally trashing the 4070ti as a horrible rip off card, but according to the specs on multiple videos like Hardware Unboxed and Gamers Nexus, who both seem to hate the card, it's pretty much on par with a 3090 or 3090ti, yet on Amazon Canada or US the 4070ti is much less expensive and uses about 280W as opposed to the 450W of the 3090.

 

If you can get 3090 performance for hundreds less in dollars and watts... where the horrible part of all this? 

[LucShep]

2 hours ago, Beirut said:

I've been watching a bunch of videos of people totally trashing the 4070ti as a horrible rip off card, but according to the specs on multiple videos like Hardware Unboxed and Gamers Nexus, who both seem to hate the card, it's pretty much on par with a 3090 or 3090ti, yet on Amazon Canada or US the 4070ti is much less expensive and uses about 280W as opposed to the 450W of the 3090.

 

If you can get 3090 performance for hundreds less in dollars and watts... where the horrible part of all this? 

Where?  ...its short(ish) memory capacity and small bus size, with the horrible price tag. 

The RTX3090 may be older, eat more watts and run hotter, but it has double the VRAM (24GB vs 12GB) which is GDDR6X (=pretty expensive) and also double the memory bus size (384-bit vs 192-bit) when compared to the RTX4070Ti.

More VRAM is very important. For example, F-14A/B launching from carrier and then over Syria, high details at 4K resolution, 14GB+ VRAM can be seen used (not allocated, used).
Bigger memory bus size is also important, because it's the rate at which data can be read from or stored, like a maximum theoretical bandwidth (like more lanes dedicated for traffic, the greater the flow). It's important with higher resolutions and bigger data (such as the many enormous textures of DCS).

So, those are very important aspects for higher resolutions (4K and VR) and makes the RTX3090 the stronger product of the two, also for longer term, even if it only supports up to DLSS 2.x (RTX4070Ti supports newest DLSS 3.x). 
As said on some other thread, DCS doesn't support DLSS anyway and, when it does, it's not like version 2.x isn't good enough... so the DLSS part is a moot point here. 

Yes, brand new from the store, both GPUs are absolutely horrible value. 
But you may get an RTX3090 used (2nd hand) in mint condition these days for nearly half of the (outrageous) prices that they try to sell them new.
None of that is happening with used RTX4070Ti (or at least AFAIK).
All of which makes the RTX3090 appealing, even if it's been over two years after its launch.

One just needs to accept that the global market is effed up these days, and recognize there's much better value in the used market.
If one can not, and manages to accept (and pay for) the horrible prices of brand new GPUs, then yeah.... go for it!  ...every single high-end GPU is horribly priced anyway. 

Edited February 25, 2023 by LucShep

[Steel Jaw]

On 2/21/2023 at 6:46 PM, Beirut said:

I'm actually looking at a 4070ti now. I must be out of my mind. But it's cheaper than a 3080 and faster than a 3090. Go figure.

That's because degenerate nVidia is manipulating the market. 

[Beirut]

6 minutes ago, Steel Jaw said:

That's because degenerate nVidia is manipulating the market. 

 

Degens indeed. 

[Beirut]

8 hours ago, LucShep said:

Where?  ...its short(ish) memory capacity and small bus size, with the horrible price tag. 

The RTX3090 may be older, eat more watts and run hotter, but it has double the VRAM (24GB vs 12GB) which is GDDR6X (=pretty expensive) and also double the memory bus size (384-bit vs 192-bit) when compared to the RTX4070Ti.

More VRAM is very important. For example, F-14A/B launching from carrier and then over Syria, high details at 4K resolution, 14GB+ VRAM can be seen used (not allocated, used).
Bigger memory bus size is also important, because it's the rate at which data can be read from or stored, like a maximum theoretical bandwidth (like more lanes dedicated for traffic, the greater the flow). It's important with higher resolutions and bigger data (such as the many enormous textures of DCS).

So, those are very important aspects for higher resolutions (4K and VR) and makes the RTX3090 the stronger product of the two, also for longer term, even if it only supports up to DLSS 2.x (RTX4070Ti supports newest DLSS 3.x). 
As said on some other thread, DCS doesn't support DLSS anyway and, when it does, it's not like version 2.x isn't good enough... so the DLSS part is a moot point here. 

Yes, brand new from the store, both GPUs are absolutely horrible value. 
But you may get an RTX3090 used (2nd hand) in mint condition these days for nearly half of the (outrageous) prices that they try to sell them new.
None of that is happening with used RTX4070Ti (or at least AFAIK).
All of which makes the RTX3090 appealing, even if it's been over two years after its launch.

One just needs to accept that the global market is effed up these days, and recognize there's much better value in the used market.
If one can not, and manages to accept (and pay for) the horrible prices of brand new GPUs, then yeah.... go for it!  ...every single high-end GPU is horribly priced anyway. 

 

 

It's a clown show to be sure.

 

Best deals I've seen that border on reasonable are for 6700XT and 6750XT cards. But I'm hesitant to go with AMD since DCS is 90%+ of my game interests and I've seen it mentioned several times that Nvidia is the better for DCS. Also, buying used off Fleabay is not in my comfort zone. And unless I win the lottery, I won't be going 4K or VR. 1440p on my rather nice 27" screen is where I'll stay.

 

Decisions.... decisions... 

[BitMaster]

Avoid any card with less than 16GB VRAM unless you aim for 1080p. 

You can work around some shortcomings but lack of memory cannot be compensated other than with a delay. A decade old wisdom.

 

Just my 2 cents about Nvidia trying to rip us off

 

F***off Nvidia

 

*corrected to 16GB

Edited February 26, 2023 by BitMaster

[Beirut]

1 hour ago, BitMaster said:

 

F***off Nvidia

 

I like your style. 

 

I don't think I can afford a card with more than 12GB. Aside from the cost of a card with more than 12GB VRAM, I really don't want to have to buy a new PSU to power it. A 4080 and a new PSU is just too much cash. 

 

And as much as Nvidia is gross, I would rather stick with it than go with an AMD card since DCS seems to favour Nvida. (I think.) So far the 4070ti looks to be the best I can afford that will run with my 750w PSU. 

[LucShep]

20 hours ago, Beirut said:

I don't think I can afford a card with more than 12GB. Aside from the cost of a card with more than 12GB VRAM, I really don't want to have to buy a new PSU to power it. A 4080 and a new PSU is just too much cash. 

And as much as Nvidia is gross, I would rather stick with it than go with an AMD card since DCS seems to favour Nvida. (I think.) So far the 4070ti looks to be the best I can afford that will run with my 750w PSU. 

Well, in that case it's pretty clear that you only have one option, really.  You already have the veredict - get the RTX4070Ti 12GB.

I'm looking into Newegg.ca and see plenty under $1300,00 CAD (and "open-box" ones <$1000,00 CAD) ---> https://www.newegg.ca/p/pl?d=RTX+4070TI&Order=1

Don't get anybody wrong here, it's pretty much guaranteed that any model version of the RTX4070Ti 12GB will perform absolutely awesome at 1440P.
Likely blow your socks off, coming from an RTX2060 Super 8GB...

What we've been trying to warn you about is the imponderables, due to the unoptimized nature of DCS, and that GPU's own limitations (as good as it is). 
The fact that DCS is so utterly unoptimized, hasn't got any better lately (worse, actually) even with so many complaining for so long now, and it may become more demanding.
Also, today you're on a 1440P 27'' monitor, that'll be perfect with the RTX4070Ti 12GB. But you can't know when or if you'll want a 4K monitor (32'' or 43'') or to get into VR. 
As to say, it'll be absolutely fine today, but you may start to see limitations from that RTX4070Ti at some point in the future (4 years in service expected, as you've said).

Edited February 26, 2023 by LucShep

[Beirut]

I certainly appreciate your help with this. It's a tough one to figure out; you can go whole hog like "a gamer" or you play it down the middle and save a few bucks and accept that a few lower settings won't kill you.

 

This would be simpler if I was rich. 

[LucShep]

[Beirut]

Still at it. 

 

Video card money is no small chunk of change for me, so I'm "being careful". Was an inch away from getting the 4070ti, but the prices were just high enough to break the budget. Then the prices dropped enough to fit the money I have... and they announced the 4070 coming soon. And that is my card to be. $300 less than the 4070ti, low power usage, and certainly good enough for DCS, which is my only concern. Just waiting for delivery times to get shorter. I want two-day delivery, not two-weeks.

 

According to the reviews I've seen, I should get about a 100% increase in FPS over my 2060. That's just fine by me. 

[Sr.]

On 2/24/2023 at 8:32 PM, Steel Jaw said:

That's because degenerate nVidia is manipulating the market. 

Somewhat...

 

It's also a result of gamers paying scalper prices for 2 years. The manufacturers responded by simply cutting out the middle man. 

[Beirut]

3 hours ago, Sr. said:

Somewhat...

 

It's also a result of gamers paying scalper prices for 2 years. The manufacturers responded by simply cutting out the middle man. 

 

Did they ever!

 

There are 3070s that cost more than 4070s. And 3070ti that cost more than 4070ti. And 3080s that cost more than 4080s. And some 3080ti are within spitting distance of costing as much as a 4090. And that's not third-party sellers on Amazon - that's Amazon itself. 

 

The whole graphics card market is insane.

[Beirut]

Questions... questions... questions... I require a great deal of emotional security.

 

If a particular 4070ti draws 285W, and is pulling 75 off the MB, is it safe to use one cable with an 8-pin and a 6+2-pin to plug into the 12 pin connector that goes into the card? My PSU is a Corsair 750W RMX Gold.

 

Thank you.