E-M Diagram F-1 anyone?

[SuperKermit]

Hello everybody,

I do not know if it has been discussed previously - at least I could not find it here.

Is there an E-M diagram for the F-1 available?

Many thanks in advance!

[Ramsay]

2 hours ago, ChrisKermit said:

Is there an E-M diagram for the F-1 available?

This Mirage F1 CE E-M diagram was shared on the "DCS Dogfighters" discord

 

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1044787592794738749/1045083217000145038/Subsonic_Energy_Maneuverability_Diagrams_for_DCS_v202211.pdf

Edited February 17, 2023 by Ramsay

[SuperKermit]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Ramsay:

This Mirage F1 CE E-M diagram was shared on the "DCS Dogfighters" discord

 

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1044787592794738749/1045083217000145038/Subsonic_Energy_Maneuverability_Diagrams_for_DCS_v202211.pdf

 

Fantastic, thanks  

[fausete]

Hello! I don't know how accurate this test is but it's certainly not up to date anymore.

[Iron Sights]

Tells me enough. Some things may have gotten better with FM updates, but it looks close.

[SuperKermit]

vor 20 Stunden schrieb fausete:

Hello! I don't know how accurate this test is but it's certainly not up to date anymore.

So what do you think has changed? For the better or worse?

[fausete]

Performance should generally better than that.

[FlankerKiller]

This right here is the number two reason I prefer cold war aircraft. The availability of data. 

[MysteriousHonza]

On 2/28/2023 at 3:32 PM, FlankerKiller said:

This right here is the number two reason I prefer cold war aircraft. The availability of data. 

Exept there are none publicly available for F1. Its easier to get em diagrams for 4th gens still in service than for F1.

[FlankerKiller]

20 minutes ago, MysteriousHonza said:

Exept there are none publicly available for F1. Its easier to get em diagrams for 4th gens still in service than for F1.

Then they should never have moduled it.

[MysteriousHonza]

23 minutes ago, FlankerKiller said:

Then they should never have moduled it.

They have access to performance books due to spanish air force. We dont have anything tho.

[SuperKermit]

Is there a current one with combat flaps emplyment? I think the one above does not show the full potential. 

[303_Kermit]

We tested F1CE extensively: test was performed on 15-23.10.2024
Constant turn on altitude 300ft:
Conditions: Standard atmosphere conditions, 20°C no wind, no turbulence, wakes on, fuel unlimited 100%, two Aim-9B payload.
Test layout:
during a test pilot performs a stabilized turn with constant speed, altitude, and bank angle. After stabilizing the turn at given speed, pilot reports "ready for measurement". After that moment, exact conditions are kept: altitude +/-20ft, speed +/-0,5kt. If conditions aren't kept, measurement is interrupted and repeated after meeting desired conditions. Measured are taken by external observer. Time start and stops at given HDG after performing 360° turn.
Observations:
1. During turn (stable and unstable) proportionally to loss of speed, there's visible travel of aerodynamic center to the front.
2. Hyper Lift devices allow to perform tightening high "G" corner.
3. When speed drops below 400kt, drag seem to raise nonlinear (rapidly). Keeping constant speed becomes more difficult.
4. 5G may be kept even in 360° turn, prolonging turn fight after that isn't advisable.
5. Between 300 and 350 kt there's slot movement, that causes keeping constant speed difficult.
6. On AoA close to critical in full flaps configuration, at 200-220kt, right before stall , plane seem to be more responsive to steering. Keeping plane on AoA close to critical requires attention.

Recorded times:

200 knot 0:36 slots + flaps full
225 knot 0:34 slots + flaps full
240 knot 0:34 slots + flaps full
250 knot 0:34 slots + flaps full
255 knot 0:34 slots + flaps full
260 knot 0:34 slots + flaps full
265 knot 0:34 slots + flaps full
270 knot 0:34 slots + flaps full
280 knot 0:34 slots + flaps full
290 knot 0:34 slots + flaps combat
300 knot 0:34 slots + flaps combat
310 knot 0:36 slots - see "observations"
330 knot 0:35 slots
380 knot 0:33 slots
400 knot 0:31 slots
440 knot 0:31 slots
460 knot 0:33 slots 
- maintaining constant stabilized turn above 460kt was difficult. Small changes in input results in big changes in archived stabilized speed.
600 Knot 0:39 clean
700 Knot 1:20 clean

Edited February 25 by 303_Kermit

[SuperKermit]

vor einer Stunde schrieb 303_Kermit:

Recorded times:

200 knot 0:36 slots + flaps full
225 knot 0:34 slots + flaps full
240 knot 0:34 slots + flaps full
250 knot 0:34 slots + flaps full
255 knot 0:34 slots + flaps full
260 knot 0:34 slots + flaps full
265 knot 0:34 slots + flaps full
270 knot 0:34 slots + flaps full
280 knot 0:34 slots + flaps full
290 knot 0:34 slots + flaps combat
300 knot 0:34 slots + flaps combat
310 knot 0:36 slots - see "observations"
330 knot 0:35 slots
380 knot 0:33 slots
400 knot 0:31 slots
440 knot 0:31 slots
460 knot 0:33 slots 
- maintaining constant stabilized turn above 460kt was difficult. Small changes in input results in big changes in archived stabilized speed.
600 Knot 0:39 clean
700 Knot 1:20 clean

Very helpful, thank you very much! 

It's interesting to see, that between 225 and 300 kts the turn rate basically stays the same!

[SuperKermit]

Am 25.2.2025 um 15:24 schrieb 303_Kermit:

Conditions: Standard atmosphere conditions, 20°C no wind, no turbulence, wakes on, fuel unlimited 100%, two Aim-9B payload.

Did you, by any chance, also test with 50% fuel - as most other evaluations usually take that as a reference weight?

Edited May 3 by SuperKermit

[303_Kermit]

No, I'll post it PM to you if we perform something like that. For us "the worst case scenario" was the most important case.

[SuperKermit]

vor 51 Minuten schrieb 303_Kermit:

 

No, I'll post it PM to you if we perform something like that.

 

Fantastic, thanks!

I understand you fly the F-1 lot. What is your assessment of the competitiveness against the F-4?

[303_Kermit]

19 hours ago, SuperKermit said:

Fantastic, thanks!

I understand you fly the F-1 lot. What is your assessment of the competitiveness against the F-4?

We fly F-1 as our main plane from over 1 year. Some of us don't even touch other modules.
I have no problem taking F-4E out, but mostly we fly at least as a pair. I choose when I want to fight, and when I don't. at 0 lvl I'm faster. My engine is more economic, and when F-4 is out of fuel I still have 20 minutes of flight to rtb. 
1 on 1 Phantom has better acceleration in range 0,4Ma - 0,7Ma. Also slightly better Turn rate, but if both pilots know their <profanity> it takes enormous amount of time to see actually visible advantage. F1 fights very well in vertical, if you know when to shut down Hyper Lift Devices. Doing that you can outmaneuver F-4. It's however not easy, and from my most experience pilots half of them don't feel comfortable in dogfight against F-5 or F-4. Personally In worst case with F-4 on my back I start from "break" and drop altitude rapidly in various vertical maneuvers trying to archive rolling scissors with F-4. Then I pull hard to low speed and High AoA. I use combat flaps first, and when second warning siren comes (first about high AoA second about speed under 220kt), I use full flaps. F-4 always fells down like a brick. Usually After that either I become gun solution or separate myself from dogfight. 

On most CW servers Phantom has artificially made weapon advantage. In spite of the fact that R530 was available in service from 1962 and Supermatra R530F in 1979. Usually we're Equipped in R530 not before when Phantom becomes AiM-7F (on Contentions we become R530(EM) when Phantom becomes AiM-7E2). Compared to AiM-7E2 our R530(EM) has much smaller range. Head on gives us no chance to hit him first without some F-pole maneuvers. Firing it from tail aspect makes much sense on high alt, when it keeps high speed for a long time. On deck lvl, I usually lunch my missile only to loose weight. It's actually very funny. missile starts accelerating, and after short period of acceleration missile flies 100-300m in front of my Mirage with roughly same speed as I have, and then I start catching up. I become gun solution before missile hits the target.

Edited Sunday at 03:46 PM by 303_Kermit

[SuperKermit]

Thanks for the detailed insights @303_Kermit!

I am currently considering getting the F-1 as well as I really like the looks of it. One of the main advantages over the F-4 is the better RWR as well IMHO. The F-4's one is practically useless in A2A.

[DSplayer]

2 hours ago, SuperKermit said:

I am currently considering getting the F-1 as well as I really like the looks of it. One of the main advantages over the F-4 is the better RWR as well IMHO. The F-4's one is practically useless in A2A.

The F-4's RWR definitely requires some practice and prior knowledge before hand in order to get the most out of it compared to the F1EE's. Listening to the new guy audio/using Handoff and recognizing what PRF radars have is definitely something people have to do to get the most out of the ALR-46.