Loadout diagram please.

[PLAAF]

Can you share a loadout diagram, please? The diagram for the module you are prepared to release, not different variants can be found on the internet.

Something like this: 

[Lodkins]

Flight Manual from 1979, starting at PDF page 199

https://www.f4phantom.com/docs/F4Manual-1979-T-O-1F-4E-1-Flight-Manual-USAF-Series-F-4E-Aircraft.pdf

 

Cybermodeler:

https://www.cybermodeler.com/aircraft/f-4/f-4e_loads.shtml

[Aussie_Mantis]

I will make one.
 

[79Au]

On 3/3/2023 at 2:38 PM, Lodkins said:

Flight Manual from 1979, starting at PDF page 199

https://www.f4phantom.com/docs/F4Manual-1979-T-O-1F-4E-1-Flight-Manual-USAF-Series-F-4E-Aircraft.pdf

 

Cybermodeler:

https://www.cybermodeler.com/aircraft/f-4/f-4e_loads.shtml

Looks ike we're getting 24xMk82s and triple rack mavs, awesome!

[WarbossPetross]

If anyone's still interested, here's an important-looking table for the USAF birds, this and the next page: https://archive.org/details/fphantomiiusaffe00kinz/page/n29/mode/2up

[Temetre]

Am 3.3.2023 um 14:38 schrieb Lodkins:

Flight Manual from 1979, starting at PDF page 199

https://www.f4phantom.com/docs/F4Manual-1979-T-O-1F-4E-1-Flight-Manual-USAF-Series-F-4E-Aircraft.pdf

 

Cybermodeler:

https://www.cybermodeler.com/aircraft/f-4/f-4e_loads.shtml

Btw, do we have anything official on the Phantoms loadout and the AGM-45 Shrike? While its not the G-variant, I think the F-4E would be our first fully modeled cold war plane with anti-radiation missiles? I think the only other one is the A-4E Skyhawk currently, which is a bit limited in its ability to deploy it. Phantom also got the nav-computer thats almost required to use it effectively.

Its also interesting that the manual lists the AGM-45B (page 202), which has a bigger booster and increases range from 16 to 40km. First used early 70s, but its hard to find any specific information. That would a quite welcome addition!

edit: also im sorry but 

 

Edited May 2, 2023 by Temetre

[Biggus]

Shrike was available on the E, four could be carried.  There is a mode dedicated to AGM-45 employment in the weapons system, for lofting or direct delivery.  An aural tone is transmitted to the crew over the ICS when the seeker detects an emission, and steering information is presented on the ADI.

I'm under the impression that setting up a loft delivery requires prior knowledge of the emitter location.  I vaguely recall something about a ten degree nose-down attitude required for direct delivery, too.  It's definitely an interesting missile with a somewhat poor reputation, again for reasons that aren't entirely within the scope of DCS.

[Temetre]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Biggus:

Shrike was available on the E, four could be carried.  There is a mode dedicated to AGM-45 employment in the weapons system, for lofting or direct delivery.  An aural tone is transmitted to the crew over the ICS when the seeker detects an emission, and steering information is presented on the ADI.

Oh, I like how that sounds. So even on the Phantom-E, the Shrike is much more integrated than in our A-4E Skyhawk mod (which tbf has limited APIs to work off). 

So Ill take it pretty much as granted we get the Shrike. Hopefully the B-variant as well, to fight longer ranged SAMs.

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Biggus:

I'm under the impression that setting up a loft delivery requires prior knowledge of the emitter location.  I vaguely recall something about a ten degree nose-down attitude required for direct delivery, too.  It's definitely an interesting missile with a somewhat poor reputation, again for reasons that aren't entirely within the scope of DCS.

Ive only used it in the A-4E Skyhawk, not sure how realistic that was. But you basically had to aim the missile directly at the enemy radar to pick up the signal, was like a ~3 degree aim zone. I dont think you could even uncage the seeker. Got like 10~12 miles of range.

Speaking about reliability, Ive only used it from near "perfect" conditions with the nav-computer. Had to know where the enemy radar was, and nav points were basically mandatory to get the ranging right. Attacking HAWK batteries I needed to fire from max range and then instantly turn to dodge missiles.

In reality you probably dont got that luxury. I think IRL the shrike also had like one missile for each radar-band, so you needed the right misisle for a specific radar. The HARM with its fire&forget and sensor identification features are a pure luxury in comparision. Let alone the HTS pod, though the F-4G might have something similar. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by Temetre

[Biggus]

3 hours ago, Temetre said:

Oh, I like how that sounds. So even on the Phantom-E, the Shrike is much more integrated than in our A-4E Skyhawk mod (which tbf has limited APIs to work off). 

So Ill take it pretty much as granted we get the Shrike. Hopefully the B-variant as well, to fight longer ranged SAMs.

Ive only used it in the A-4E Skyhawk, not sure how realistic that was. But you basically had to aim the missile directly at the enemy radar to pick up the signal, was like a ~3 degree aim zone. I dont think you could even uncage the seeker. Got like 10~12 miles of range.

Speaking about reliability, Ive only used it from near "perfect" conditions with the nav-computer. Had to know where the enemy radar was, and nav points were basically mandatory to get the ranging right. Attacking HAWK batteries I needed to fire from max range and then instantly turn to dodge missiles.

In reality you probably dont got that luxury. I think IRL the shrike also had like one missile for each radar-band, so you needed the right misisle for a specific radar. The HARM with its fire&forget and sensor identification features are a pure luxury in comparision. Let alone the HTS pod, though the F-4G might have something similar. 

 

The A-4 is certainly pretty good to get an idea of the sort of environment you'd be employing it in.  It's a very narrow azimuth window, certainly.  Doubly so if you're trying to kill a rotating search radar.  How it behaves will come down to the way the ground AI uses the radar in large part.  If you're enjoying success with it now, I'd imagine that you'll be a little bit better with it in the Phantom.

I lowkey hope that someone does an F-4G mod, and some AGM-78s.

[Temetre]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Biggus:

The A-4 is certainly pretty good to get an idea of the sort of environment you'd be employing it in.  It's a very narrow azimuth window, certainly.  Doubly so if you're trying to kill a rotating search radar.  How it behaves will come down to the way the ground AI uses the radar in large part.  If you're enjoying success with it now, I'd imagine that you'll be a little bit better with it in the Phantom.

Thought its only a chance of success if I know exactly where the enemy AA is and theres no air cover in the form of mig-21s or so^^

Hope the Phantom will increase that scope of viability a bit.

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Biggus:

I lowkey hope that someone does an F-4G mod, and some AGM-78s.

I wouldnt mind that, at all!  

Edited May 3, 2023 by Temetre

[PLAAF]

On 3/4/2023 at 12:38 AM, Lodkins said:

Flight Manual from 1979, starting at PDF page 199

https://www.f4phantom.com/docs/F4Manual-1979-T-O-1F-4E-1-Flight-Manual-USAF-Series-F-4E-Aircraft.pdf

 

Cybermodeler:

https://www.cybermodeler.com/aircraft/f-4/f-4e_loads.shtml

I didn't notice this before, but according to this link, the best dogfight missile F-4E has is AIM-9J.

So F-4E doesn't even have an aspect IR missile? And it is less capable in a dogfight than the later F-5E?

[_BringTheReign_]

1 hour ago, PLAAF said:

So F-4E doesn't even have an aspect IR missile?

Missiles have been confirmed up to and including the AIM-9M and AIM-7M

[PLAAF]

17 hours ago, _BringTheReign_ said:

Missiles have been confirmed up to and including the AIM-9M and AIM-7M

I thought that F-4E could only carry AIM-7F. So this is not an original F-4E, but an upgraded variant. If so, why not go all the way, and give us this instead?

 

[Stackup]

2 hours ago, PLAAF said:

I thought that F-4E could only carry AIM-7F. So this is not an original F-4E, but an upgraded variant. If so, why not go all the way, and give us this instead?

Key there being "you thought".  Perhaps the developers know more than you do.  Also the devs have posted the CURRENT missiles list and have stated (as should be obvious since we can't fly it yet) that it is still work in progress and subject to change.

In any event, the F-4E we are getting was always an upgraded version as we are getting post 1974 upgrades for a 1960's aircraft.  Leading edge slats, digital RWR, etc. are all upgrades done to the F-4E over the course of its service life and not all export variants even got stuff like the slats.  I don't know where you think you can get off calling it "not original" when we weren't ever getting the original version with the hard wing and strobe RWR that flew over Vietnam in the late 60's anyways.

[PLAAF]

34 minutes ago, Stackup said:

Key there being "you thought".  Perhaps the developers know more than you do.  Also the devs have posted the CURRENT missiles list and have stated (as should be obvious since we can't fly it yet) that it is still work in progress and subject to change.

In any event, the F-4E we are getting was always an upgraded version as we are getting post 1974 upgrades for a 1960's aircraft.  Leading edge slats, digital RWR, etc. are all upgrades done to the F-4E over the course of its service life and not all export variants even got stuff like the slats.  I don't know where you think you can get off calling it "not original" when we weren't ever getting the original version with the hard wing and strobe RWR that flew over Vietnam in the late 60's anyways.

Look like I triggered a nuclear response. lol

I said "original F-4E", not "original". Leading edge stats and a bunch of other features are presented on the original F-4E. That's why it was called an "E variant". If we are getting a variant with the "upgrades done to the F-4E over the course of its service life" as you have put it, then what's wrong for me to suggest that we "go all the way"? Because what I have suggested is also an "upgrade done to the F-4E over the course of its service life ".

That's all I am going to say here. If you are just bored and want to pick a fight, I suggest a therapist, professionally speaking.   

Edited November 25, 2023 by PLAAF

[WinterH]

7 hours ago, PLAAF said:

I said "original F-4E", not "original". Leading edge stats and a bunch of other features are presented on the original F-4E. That's why it was called an "E variant". If we are getting a variant with the "upgrades done to the F-4E over the course of its service life" as you have put it, then what's wrong for me to suggest that we "go all the way"? Because what I have suggested is also an "upgrade done to the F-4E over the course of its service life ".

Except they aren't, original F-4E had no slats, nor the later RWR. In any case however, what we are getting is going to be two F-4E variants (as you probably know well, a letter does not denote a clear-cut variant in fighters, and the have various blocks and updates over time to significantly change what the aircraft is).

First one is from 1974ish, but also with the possibility to add later weapons that were compatible without much in the way of changing the aircraft. This is basically the "definitive F-4E" that can roleplay both earlier Vietnam F-4Es to some degree, but also fit with international F-4E service very well from 70s all the way up to 90s. It will also probably be the variant to see most often on usual Cold War servers. This variant is known in short as "DSCG".

Second variant to come later in development is F-4E "DMAS", roughly a very late 70s to 80s upgrade, operated mainly by USAF, but also exported in small numbers. This was mainly an upgrade for strike role, with a better navigation system, digital bombing computer with CCIP mode, a better (and also a lot heavier/draggier) targeting pod etc.

So, air to air missiles it looks like we'll have avaiable in both variants:

- AIM-9 Sidewinder family including B,J,P rear aspect variants, as well as P-3,P-5,L,M all aspect variants. I'd expect Cold War servers probably not including L and M, maybe not even P-5.

- AIM-7 Sparrow family including E,E-2,F, and looks like M. Likewise, servers will probably allow up to F, but we'll see.

Manuals from up to early 80s speak of AIM-7F at the latest as far as I recall, but looks like M will be possible as an option too.

As for the air to ground, for DSCG:

- AGM-65 Mavericks, I think up to D or G, not sure, and I don't remember Heatblur clarifying possible Maverick versions yet. It is possible to carry up to 6 of them, and it is also possible to still carry 4 sidewinders over the Mavericks, tho weight and drag wise it wouldn't be "fun" experience.

- AGM-45 Shrike anti radar missiles. Cool to have some SEAD capability. But the missiles are truely quite garbage :)) Up to 4 can be carried, and to be honest, if you want to even hope to hit anything, you better have 4

- All sorts of iron bombs and cluster bombs, I think it is possible to have up to 20 Mk-82s on. There is some computed bombing capability, but more akin to that on A-4E.

- GBU-8 TV guided large warhead bombs, maybe GBU-15 too, which has an extended range over the 8, as well as a less horrible sensor. Some suggest AGM-62 may also be a possibility, normally a Navy/Marines weapon, but during Vietnam War some Air Force birds did use it from a shared base afaik. No "man in the loop" capability with any though. That is later during mid 80s for the DMAS version with a datalink pod.

- Lots of rockets of either FFAR/Hyrda variety or I think Zunis are an option too despite also normally being a Navy weapon.

- Heatblur didn't show anything of sort, but I think submunition dispensers similar to Soviet/Russian KMGU could also be a possibility. You can see CBU-2s on A-4E, if we get some it'd possibly be those.

- Laser guided bombs from Paveway family.

- Pave Spike day-only targeting pod with no auto tracking and limited cueing options for self lasing with LGBs.

DMAS will add:

- GBU-15 for certain, along with its datalink pod for controlling the bomb post-drop

- Pave Tack targeting pod which is FLIR, so night usage is also possilbe along with much easier spotting of targets. It has some automatic tracking features and better optical capabilities too. It is however, HUGE and heavy, and uses the centerline pylon. Unlike earlier Phantom, DMAS can't use smaller and lighter Pave Spike that went on forward Sparrow pylon anymore.

[PLAAF]

3 hours ago, WinterH said:

what we are getting is going to be two F-4E variants 

First one is from 1974ish, but also with the possibility to add later weapons that were compatible without much in the way of changing the aircraft. This is basically the "definitive F-4E" that can roleplay both earlier Vietnam F-4Es to some degree, but also fit with international F-4E service very well from 70s all the way up to 90s. It will also probably be the variant to see most often on usual Cold War servers. This variant is known in short as "DSCG".

Second variant to come later in development is F-4E "DMAS", roughly a very late 70s to 80s upgrade, operated mainly by USAF, but also exported in small numbers. This was mainly an upgrade for strike role, with a better navigation system, digital bombing computer with CCIP mode, a better (and also a lot heavier/draggier) targeting pod etc.

Thanks very much for clearing things up for me. So we are getting 2 variants for a price of one? That's good to know.

[Zabuzard]

Except they aren't, original F-4E had no slats, nor the later RWR. In any case however, what we are getting is going to be two F-4E variants (as you probably know well, a letter does not denote a clear-cut variant in fighters, and the have various blocks and updates over time to significantly change what the aircraft is).
First one is from 1974ish, but also with the possibility to add later weapons that were compatible without much in the way of changing the aircraft. This is basically the "definitive F-4E" that can roleplay both earlier Vietnam F-4Es to some degree, but also fit with international F-4E service very well from 70s all the way up to 90s. It will also probably be the variant to see most often on usual Cold War servers. This variant is known in short as "DSCG".
Second variant to come later in development is F-4E "DMAS", roughly a very late 70s to 80s upgrade, operated mainly by USAF, but also exported in small numbers. This was mainly an upgrade for strike role, with a better navigation system, digital bombing computer with CCIP mode, a better (and also a lot heavier/draggier) targeting pod etc.
So, air to air missiles it looks like we'll have avaiable in both variants:
- AIM-9 Sidewinder family including B,J,P rear aspect variants, as well as P-3,P-5,L,M all aspect variants. I'd expect Cold War servers probably not including L and M, maybe not even P-5.
- AIM-7 Sparrow family including E,E-2,F, and looks like M. Likewise, servers will probably allow up to F, but we'll see.
Manuals from up to early 80s speak of AIM-7F at the latest as far as I recall, but looks like M will be possible as an option too.
As for the air to ground, for DSCG:
- AGM-65 Mavericks, I think up to D or G, not sure, and I don't remember Heatblur clarifying possible Maverick versions yet. It is possible to carry up to 6 of them, and it is also possible to still carry 4 sidewinders over the Mavericks, tho weight and drag wise it wouldn't be "fun" experience.
- AGM-45 Shrike anti radar missiles. Cool to have some SEAD capability. But the missiles are truely quite garbage :)) Up to 4 can be carried, and to be honest, if you want to even hope to hit anything, you better have 4
- All sorts of iron bombs and cluster bombs, I think it is possible to have up to 20 Mk-82s on. There is some computed bombing capability, but more akin to that on A-4E.
- GBU-8 TV guided large warhead bombs, maybe GBU-15 too, which has an extended range over the 8, as well as a less horrible sensor. Some suggest AGM-62 may also be a possibility, normally a Navy/Marines weapon, but during Vietnam War some Air Force birds did use it from a shared base afaik. No "man in the loop" capability with any though. That is later during mid 80s for the DMAS version with a datalink pod.
- Lots of rockets of either FFAR/Hyrda variety or I think Zunis are an option too despite also normally being a Navy weapon.
- Heatblur didn't show anything of sort, but I think submunition dispensers similar to Soviet/Russian KMGU could also be a possibility. You can see CBU-2s on A-4E, if we get some it'd possibly be those.
- Laser guided bombs from Paveway family.
- Pave Spike day-only targeting pod with no auto tracking and limited cueing options for self lasing with LGBs.
DMAS will add:
- GBU-15 for certain, along with its datalink pod for controlling the bomb post-drop
- Pave Tack targeting pod which is FLIR, so night usage is also possilbe along with much easier spotting of targets. It has some automatic tracking features and better optical capabilities too. It is however, HUGE and heavy, and uses the centerline pylon. Unlike earlier Phantom, DMAS can't use smaller and lighter Pave Spike that went on forward Sparrow pylon anymore.

some stuff here and there, but overall this sums it up quite well