SDBs- what are they and how would you use them?

[gzj3401]

36分钟前，Ramsay说：

GBU-39 is on a "wish list" and may be added with the planned CTU II (2015) update that adds the HMCS, AIM-9X, etc. sometime after early access

AFAIK Razbam hope to accurately model Suite 4+ avionics and weapons fairly tightly.

Beyond this they wish to include legacy weapons i.e. for 1990 Desert Storm scenarios, and newer weapons/systems that are out of scope of Suite 4. How well this is done depends on the information available from SMEs, etc. for obvious reasons.

Adding the GBU-38 to the base game will require cooperation with ED and it's inclusion is subject to change, etc.

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/99350-weaponry/?do=findComment&comment=5136643

got it, thank you

[CoyoteEffect]

On 3/22/2023 at 12:25 AM, Eviscerador said:

Dude, we'd had the JSOW in the Viper for a long time now.

yes but that only has the CBU-type which, from my experience, does jack against armor

[jubuttib]

On 4/6/2023 at 8:40 AM, CoyoteEffect said:

yes but that only has the CBU-type which, from my experience, does jack against armor

Reject USAF, embrace PAF. GB-6 SFW is de way.

Oh, and the new LS-6 100s, too, since we're in the SDB thread.

On 3/23/2023 at 2:59 PM, Eviscerador said:

the damage model... ... is very CAS oriented.

I kinda know what you mean, but also seeing how crap damage modeling on armor is on anything except a direct hit...

[jubuttib]

On 3/17/2023 at 4:58 AM, HalfBlindOracle said:

As a 500 lbs bomb can shatter an MBT from even a 20-30m distance, where a 250 lbs bomb cannot.

Really hoping that one day this will be true in DCS...

I'm interested in learning to be a good dumb bomber, but requiring direct hits on armor is making it real tough to care. When showing off the ARBS/DMT system Hughes showed several near misses in their promotional footage, none of which would have achieved anything in DCS...

[Eviscerador]

6 hours ago, jubuttib said:

Really hoping that one day this will be true in DCS...

I'm interested in learning to be a good dumb bomber, but requiring direct hits on armor is making it real tough to care. When showing off the ARBS/DMT system Hughes showed several near misses in their promotional footage, none of which would have achieved anything in DCS...

The main reason is that the weapon of choice against that kind of targets is the CBU 87 or the Mk20. Mk82 can K-kill a tank with a direct hit but a near miss will also give you a mission kill. The problem is that in DCS is either K-kill or bust, because even with 10% damage the tank will function. Bad, slow and such, but it counts as alive, while in RL most likely it will be abandoned and the crew will be shocked.

[Mr_Burns]

On 3/24/2023 at 1:33 AM, Ignition said:

DCS needs more static buildings, we have many 3d models from the 90's but ED seem to not agree on this. The strike missions are VERY limited. ED will realise of this issue when the dynamic campaign releases.

 

Got to agree 100x, I dont fly every aircraft, F/A-18 is my go to as I couldnt fathom the A-10C2 Hotas, but a lot of big bombs with little point as the targets are all the same.

I still go overkill on bridges or hardened shelters, just because you might need that IRL, but it shouldnt be hard to implement a damage model on a hardened shelter, or a points penalty if you cause too much collateral.

Yes I hope the dynamic campaign addresses it, but I tend to think if any improvements in that area were planned, you might the get damage model before the campaign, of course, ED will deploy resources as they think best, but yeah, I hope us ground pounders get some love in the targeting of civil structures.

[Voyager]

On 3/22/2023 at 9:04 AM, Daerchanar said:

TBH, I don't see the interest in these tiny bangs. I'm more looking forward to GBU-28 sorts of weapons.

 

Think of them more as the Oprah Winfrey of bombs: 

You get a bomb! And you get a bomb and you get a bomb! Bombs for everyone! 

(I really shouldn't be saying that in my Sheogorath voice...) 

Individually they aren't much, but you can carry enough to ruin *everyones* day and then some. 

[JB3DG]

16 hours ago, Voyager said:

Think of them more as the Oprah Winfrey of bombs: 

You get a bomb! And you get a bomb and you get a bomb! Bombs for everyone! 

(I really shouldn't be saying that in my Sheogorath voice...) 

Individually they aren't much, but you can carry enough to ruin *everyones* day and then some. 

If they are accurate enough to score direct hits on a row of tanks, think of being able to plink 12 or more in a single pass, vs say 5 or 6 very close to eachother with a single GBU-28, which is unlikely to have as much effect in open air since most of its mass is in the penetrator to survive going 100ft underground and only has about 675lbs of explosive. That explosive effect has much more power under ground since shockwaves travel faster through earth than air plus there's the cavern effect. Its good for taking down structures. SDBs, especially the II variant with its laser guided/multi sensor capability, are a force multiplier for wiping out vehicles in the field. Smaller leaner meaner keener. 

Edited May 16, 2023 by JB3DG

[bfr]

44 minutes ago, JB3DG said:

If they are accurate enough to score direct hits on a row of tanks, think of being able to plink 12 or more in a single pass, vs say 5 or 6 very close to eachother with a single GBU-28, which is unlikely to have as much effect in open air since most of its mass is in the penetrator to survive going 100ft underground and only has about 675lbs of explosive. That explosive effect has much more power under ground since shockwaves travel faster through earth than air plus there's the cavern effect. Its good for taking down structures. SDBs, especially the II variant with its laser guided/multi sensor capability, are a force multiplier for wiping out vehicles in the field. Smaller leaner meaner keener. 

 

Yeah, who doesn't love the idea of having a big number of very accurate bombs to lug around that still pack enough of a punch to do the job?  Almost like baby unitary JSOWs.

[jubuttib]

13 hours ago, bfr said:

Almost like baby unitary JSOWs.

That are better against armor than the cluster JSOWs in-game...

In terms of DCS at least, I prefer quantity over size for bombs. It's very rare that I need a big bomb, but pretty often I need a lot of hits.

[Eviscerador]

12 hours ago, jubuttib said:

That are better against armor than the cluster JSOWs in-game...

In terms of DCS at least, I prefer quantity over size for bombs. It's very rare that I need a big bomb, but pretty often I need a lot of hits.

That's more a problem of DCS damage model and mission scripting than a RL capability.

For MP it's always easier to just depend on units for capture, points and triggers. Doing that with statics where you could need bigger bombs is more cumbersome and most people just avoid it.

I'd love we would need GBU 31/3 for hardened structures, or the incoming mighty GBU 28. But most of the time you don't, all you need is a lot of small precision munitions to clear BTR, tanks, IFV and APC from said capture zone, hence lots of GBU 12-GBU 38, CBU 97 or APKWS are the weapons of choice

[Zahnatom]

2 hours ago, Eviscerador said:

I'd love we would need GBU 31/3 for hardened structures, or the incoming mighty GBU 28. But most of the time you don't, all you need is a lot of small precision munitions to clear BTR, tanks, IFV and APC from said capture zone, hence lots of GBU 12-GBU 38, CBU 97 or APKWS are the weapons of choice

well we do have penetrating bombs and we have hardened structures but yeah the damage model sucks. somehow i need 2 2000lbs penetrating JDAMs to kill a single ammo cache

[jubuttib]

On 5/17/2023 at 4:34 PM, Eviscerador said:

That's more a problem of DCS damage model and mission scripting than a RL capability.

For MP it's always easier to just depend on units for capture, points and triggers. Doing that with statics where you could need bigger bombs is more cumbersome and most people just avoid it.

I'd love we would need GBU 31/3 for hardened structures, or the incoming mighty GBU 28. But most of the time you don't, all you need is a lot of small precision munitions to clear BTR, tanks, IFV and APC from said capture zone, hence lots of GBU 12-GBU 38, CBU 97 or APKWS are the weapons of choice

Oh yeah, agreed 100%, but in the end I'm playing DCS so I'm somewhat forced to think in terms of what works in DCS.

It would be awesome to actually have to use these big badabooms to achieve things, as well as being able to cause damage on near misses.

[Temetre]

Am 12.4.2023 um 08:14 schrieb Eviscerador:

The main reason is that the weapon of choice against that kind of targets is the CBU 87 or the Mk20. Mk82 can K-kill a tank with a direct hit but a near miss will also give you a mission kill. The problem is that in DCS is either K-kill or bust, because even with 10% damage the tank will function. Bad, slow and such, but it counts as alive, while in RL most likely it will be abandoned and the crew will be shocked.

Someone correct me if Im wrong, but im pretty sure AA weapons and radars actually stop shooting below 50%, I think tanks got damage states too? So theres definitely a code base for behaviour like that.

Problem is more how the AoE damage is just completely screwed. Like, the Soviet S-24 missiles actually got an AoE effect, and for that reason alone they are a very viable weapon on the Mig-21 of all planes. 

Im fairly sure even 500lb bombs have an AoE effect, they do damage on a miss. But for some reason they have AoE radius of a handgrande. Not even joking, seems like beyond 10m or so those giant bombs seem to do zero damage.

 

Idk, rewrote my post cuz I dont wanna rant on ED too much, but I find that really disappointing. Seen someone from ED write "if we want to do fragmentation, we want to do it seriously", but thats little consolation for most bombs just being kinda useless. IRL Desert Storm F-18s literally carried 4x2000lb bombs on their first strikes, shot down some Migs, and dropped them on an airfield. In DCS those bombs are just sad.

Btw, if you wanna try how even a basic system can make the games munitions so much better, theres a splash damage mod. Very basic, yet it makes so many near useless bombs so much more viable. Of course, it still doesnt fix MK-20 or AGM-154A submunitions.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Temetre

[Eviscerador]

On 5/19/2023 at 9:03 PM, Temetre said:

Someone correct me if Im wrong, but im pretty sure AA weapons and radars actually stop shooting below 50%, I think tanks got damage states too? So theres definitely a code base for behaviour like that.

Problem is more how the AoE damage is just completely screwed. Like, the Soviet S-24 missiles actually got an AoE effect, and for that reason alone they are a very viable weapon on the Mig-21 of all planes. 

Im fairly sure even 500lb bombs have an AoE effect, they do damage on a miss. But for some reason they have AoE radius of a handgrande. Not even joking, seems like beyond 10m or so those giant bombs seem to do zero damage.

 

Idk, rewrote my post cuz I dont wanna rant on ED too much, but I find that really disappointing. Seen someone from ED write "if we want to do fragmentation, we want to do it seriously", but thats little consolation for most bombs just being kinda useless. IRL Desert Storm F-18s literally carried 4x2000lb bombs on their first strikes, shot down some Migs, and dropped them on an airfield. In DCS those bombs are just sad.

Btw, if you wanna try how even a basic system can make the games munitions so much better, theres a splash damage mod. Very basic, yet it makes so many near useless bombs so much more viable. Of course, it still doesnt fix MK-20 or AGM-154A submunitions.

 

Yes, that's true. But most if not all missions and servers depend on units to be DESTROYED. Sure you can lob some MK20 over a sam site and degrade the radars to the point they are not a factor anymore, but for the mission, they are still up and you still need to kill them. Same with the lonely BTR82 hiding behind a bush in the perimeter of an enemy airbase.

[Temetre]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb Eviscerador:

Yes, that's true. But most if not all missions and servers depend on units to be DESTROYED. Sure you can lob some MK20 over a sam site and degrade the radars to the point they are not a factor anymore, but for the mission, they are still up and you still need to kill them. Same with the lonely BTR82 hiding behind a bush in the perimeter of an enemy airbase.

Yeah, thats still an issue. But at least it does something. Maybe your ground units can finish the job, or you can return later. If tanks are disarmed or the AA system cant shoot anymore, then cleanup is easy.

Feels like it would be a big improvement imo.

And tbh, for scoring/evaluation it shouldnt be hard either to just count units with less than a certain HP percentage to be "destroyed" for the missions sake, and maybe "half count" damaged units or so. Like the tools are all there, theres no reason DCS has to be this wonky about topics like damge.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Temetre

[bfr]

3 hours ago, Temetre said:

Yeah, thats still an issue. But at least it does something. Maybe your ground units can finish the job, or you can return later. If tanks are disarmed or the AA system cant shoot anymore, then cleanup is easy.

Feels like it would be a big improvement imo.

And tbh, for scoring/evaluation it shouldnt be hard either to just count units with less than a certain HP percentage to be "destroyed" for the missions sake, and maybe "half count" damaged units or so. Like the tools are all there, theres no reason DCS has to be this wonky about topics like damge.

 

Yeah, with a more granular damage model you could have something like 'operational', 'degraded', 'incapacitated' & 'destroyed' as states depending upon hit damage. e.g. armour that has sustained enough of a hit for a track to be blown off or to have properly caught fire is probably not going to see its crew sticking around to find out what happens next.  Same goes for ships where there is a huge difference between hitting them enough (and/or in the right areas) to take them completely out of the fight versus actually putting them on the ocean floor.

[Temetre]

vor 10 Minuten schrieb bfr:

Yeah, with a more granular damage model you could have something like 'operational', 'degraded', 'incapacitated' & 'destroyed' as states depending upon hit damage. e.g. armour that has sustained enough of a hit for a track to be blown off or to have properly caught fire is probably not going to see its crew sticking around to find out what happens next.  Same goes for ships where there is a huge difference between hitting them enough (and/or in the right areas) to take them completely out of the fight versus actually putting them on the ocean floor.

Im just thinking, eg with a tank:

100% - Fully operational

50% - Cant fire

20% - Cant move, counts as destroyed in briefing

0% - Explodes

Some of that is already implemented, and IMO would be a nice thing to have for now.

[idenwen]

On 3/15/2023 at 11:24 AM, WinterH said:

- Subjectively, as with most fire and forget GPS bombs, they are boring

But the work that'S to be done preprogram 24 bombs is something.

As a reward you should have a run in with a "drop all" and a lot of boom spreading out to a nice fireworks show.

[bfr]

14 hours ago, idenwen said:

But the work that'S to be done preprogram 24 bombs is something.

As a reward you should have a run in with a "drop all" and a lot of boom spreading out to a nice fireworks show.

That'll help the time pass whilst the INS alignment does it thing I suppose.

[jubuttib]

14 hours ago, idenwen said:

But the work that'S to be done preprogram 24 bombs is something.

As a reward you should have a run in with a "drop all" and a lot of boom spreading out to a nice fireworks show.

The trouble of doing that in the Hornet is what makes me love the JDAM delivery system of the Harrier SO FRIGGING MUCH.

[Spurts]

On 5/31/2023 at 8:52 AM, jubuttib said:

The trouble of doing that in the Hornet is what makes me love the JDAM delivery system of the Harrier SO FRIGGING MUCH.

Slew, TOO, ENT, repeat x times.  Select Munitions, TGTS, Select, Pickle for x+1 seconds, up to 10 targets destroyed.  AFAIK the only Hornet advantage is 4 drops on a single pickle if you do all your stepping right.

[GGTharos]

On 3/15/2023 at 5:59 AM, Aussie_Mantis said:

Since they clearly don't stand for Sugma Dick Boiiii, what is the Small Diameter Bomb exactly and how would they be employed? Are they literally just small GPS-guided bombs that the F-15E happens to be able to carry 20-28 of? What kind of change does this make to the Eagle's lethality? According to half the people I've asked, the SDB is the second coming of Precision Jesus Himself.

The way this works here is that you can perform a stand-off attack against 20 different targets simultaneously in a single pass from stand-off distances, reducing your exposure to pretty much all things enemy.

For the SDBs preferred targets will be buildings of various sizes, bridges, etc.

Consider that you're striking an airfield:  You can take out munitions and fuel depos, bunkers, the command post and possibly whatever's on the ramp in a single pass lasting (for you) some 30 seconds.  There is of course the caveat of having to pre-program all targets ahead of time.

So, while SEAD is doing its thing and your SOJ is doing its thing to supress the target's AD, your 3-ship unleashes 80 of those things and everyone hits the road within a couple of minutes.  No overflying the target, no need for the SEAD to stick around there forever, no need for more aircraft to assign all those targets to.

Sure, some targets could require larger weapons, but you can obviously mix all that's needed into that attack.

[shagrat]

Am 24.3.2023 um 13:24 schrieb gzj3401:

Why we are talking about SDB here, are they coming with RAZBAM's F-15E?

Because "here" is the wishlist thread for the F-15E...

[McGraw]

On 6/26/2023 at 12:37 AM, GGTharos said:

The way this works here is that you can perform a stand-off attack against 20 different targets simultaneously in a single pass from stand-off distances, reducing your exposure to pretty much all things enemy.

For the SDBs preferred targets will be buildings of various sizes, bridges, etc.

Consider that you're striking an airfield:  You can take out munitions and fuel depos, bunkers, the command post and possibly whatever's on the ramp in a single pass lasting (for you) some 30 seconds.  There is of course the caveat of having to pre-program all targets ahead of time.

So, while SEAD is doing its thing and your SOJ is doing its thing to supress the target's AD, your 3-ship unleashes 80 of those things and everyone hits the road within a couple of minutes.  No overflying the target, no need for the SEAD to stick around there forever, no need for more aircraft to assign all those targets to.

Sure, some targets could require larger weapons, but you can obviously mix all that's needed into that attack.

You don't need to pre program in the f16 with the sniper, you just throw them at whatever the tgp is looking at. What causes the need for pre programming in the f15e