A/A refueling for trainees

[bfr]

6 hours ago, Furiz said:

No it doesn't have those kind of assist like AAR assist would be.

Help in learning something, yea off course, it will guide you through it but it wont hold your hand doing it.

AAR assist really doesn't fit with this sim.

 

This is true,

I'm saying that all this time but they are lazy and spoiled and don't want to put any effort in it, they want to be able to do it instantly, it doesn't work that way.

I have never seen any game that has assists like what they are asking for, basically they want to have auto pilot for AAR, real jets don't have it.

Its going back a few years but DID's F-22 Total Air War had an autopilot mode for AAR which could take over from about pre-contact position. I forget if any of the other DID titles that came before it had a similar optional assist.

[markom]

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I'm saying that all this time but they are lazy and spoiled and don't want to put any effort in it, they want to be able to do it instantly, it doesn't work that way.

And? So what if they are, in fact lazy and don't want to put the effort in? Should thy not be able to play?

Also, if you think DCS offers no shortcuts - haha. When you are preparing for the mission you fly, do you ever walk around the plane and to a physical preflight? In-cockpit? Do you ever rely on pre-programmed radio frequencies? Comms menu? F10 map? There are shortcuts all over the place.

[SharpeXB]

It’s hilarious how this topic goes on for four pages without much suggestion at all for what this “assist” would even be.

[JCTherik]

40 minutes ago, markom said:

And? So what if they are, in fact lazy and don't want to put the effort in? Should thy not be able to play?

You can still play the game.

But if you don't put the time and effort into achieving proficiency required to do a hard task in the game, then you shouldn't be able to do the hard task in the game.

 

49 minutes ago, markom said:

When you are preparing for the mission you fly, do you ever walk around the plane and to a physical preflight?

That's not implemented yet but a lot of people are asking for it all the time.

 

42 minutes ago, markom said:

Do you ever rely on pre-programmed radio frequencies? Comms menu? F10 map? There are shortcuts all over the place.

Hmm, you're right, perhaps the shortcuts should get removed then.

And basket turbulence should be a thing and wake turbulence should be always on behind tankers.

The "we already have this, why can't we have more" is not an argument. It's just a result of lot of people crying instead of searching through the chuck's guides and so those shortcuts exist now, and everyone relies on F10 map and people often don't do any navigation, but that doesn't mean that that justifies making even more shortcuts.

The line has to be drawn somewhere.

If those shortcuts get removed, I'd be quite happy. It's really not hard to twist a knob to set a radio frequency manually, or use tacan, steerpoints and a kneeboard map.

If you want to fly a plane, you have to learn to fly a plane.

 

 

[markom]

I think that having the options for people who want to enjoy the game is great. All the shortcuts if they want. For multiplayer servers, it's a different discussion altogether, but for single player. Fine - let's have A/A automation. Who am I to remove enjoyment from other folks. Those who want to learn will, those who don't will not be prevented from enjoying other aspects of the game.

And for the record, this time last year, I had no idea how to refuel. It took me some time to learn, and these days I don't fly missions unless they involve a tanker. I love it. But I am not everyone, and don't expect everyone to be like me.

[JCTherik]

5 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It’s hilarious how this topic goes on for four pages without much suggestion at all for what this “assist” would even be.

Totally. I could see how some assists would perhaps even be acceptable, like overlay for the tanker lights cause some people can't see them. Although if ED fixed the light visibility, that would be better, it's really not that big of a deal.

Or a custom mission with some cheat indication of where to move your stick, etc. Or better representation of G forces to "feel" your movement.

But lot of people are asking for [AAR autopilot] or [magnetic basket] or [wireless fuel transfer], those are just straight up skipping parts of the gameplay for the sake of participation trophies.

[markom]

Basket is already magnetic and indestructible... You know, speaking of shortcuts.

Edited May 3, 2023 by markom

[JCTherik]

15 minutes ago, markom said:

Basket is already magnetic and indestructible... You know, speaking of shortcuts.

 

It's not magnetic, you have to touch the center for it to snap.

Also, proper basket physics aren't implemented yet, but the plan is to add it. But the goal is to make it more realistic, not less.

 

What you're saying is that A isn't realistic, therefore B shouldn't either, which is not how it works in DCS.

 

You're saying you personally can refuel. So, why do you need assists?

 

There are some people who say that AAR is more difficult than in real life, and if that happens to be the case, then AAR should be changed to be more realistic, and if that makes it easier in the process, so be it.

That, realism of the task, should be the ultimate goal.

Not a basket that snaps onto your airplane from 30 meters away because kids want to burner and spamraam 24/7.

 

Again, as I said, I think some assists may be acceptable depending on what kind of assist we're talking about, so, perhaps if you explain how you imagine the AAR to work, that would move this discussion further.

[markom]

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What you're saying is that A isn't realistic, therefore B shouldn't either, which is not how it works in DCS.

Not at all. I'm saying "give folks options to enjoy the game the way they want to". The rest of us can turn up realism to 11 if we want to

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You're saying you personally can refuel. So, why do you need assists?

Because this is not about me and what I want.

Quote

Not a basket that snaps onto your airplane from 30 meters away because kids want to burner and spamraam 24/7.

Hey, if that's how they want to play their single-player missions... why not?

[JCTherik]

14 minutes ago, markom said:

Hey, if that's how they want to play their single-player missions... why not?

In theory, I don't disagree.

If it's single-player only, you can edit the lua files and give yourself whatever you want.

But in practice, giving an optional easy refueling in the settings menu means server admins will be able to choose the same settings on/off, and what tends to happen is that most new players come to the easiest of servers, and since the playerbase is relatively very tiny, barely enough to fill few servers, that means that the players who would enjoy more realistic environment are either forced to play alone on an empty server, or give up on realism and join the easy servers.

That means the more realistic servers end up empty most of the time.

 

EDIT:

Which means, if the option to add a 30 meter magnet to the basket is available, I'm very worried that sooner or later, I'll be forced to choose between playing on an empty server, or playing on a server with this setting on.

Edited May 3, 2023 by JCTherik

[Bremspropeller]

If the ducking tanker didn't reel it's hose back in after a couple of minutes, people had an easier time.

I've seen quite a few people almost putting the tip in, only to have the tanker zip up the hose and throw them off their game.

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, markom said:

For multiplayer servers, it's a different discussion altogether, but for single player. Fine - let's have A/A automation.

In single player you can just select unlimited fuel. If you want to experience refueling during the mission just fly behind the tanker and pretend you’re refueling. How would that really be any less realistic than Auto AAR?

1 minute ago, Bremspropeller said:

If the ducking tanker didn't reel it's hose back in after a couple of minutes, people had an easier time.

I've seen quite a few people almost putting the tip in, only to have the tanker zip up the hose and throw them off their game.

It doesn’t do this unless you get all outa control. Stay on station and it won’t do this. 

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, JCTherik said:

Or a custom mission with some cheat indication of where to move your stick, etc. Or better representation of G forces to "feel" your movement

But of course you should know that won’t work, the control movements are imperceptible and there’s a lag between what you see and should do. You’re not watching and reacting but anticipating. Like riding a bicycle. 

[Bremspropeller]

7 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It doesn’t do this unless you get all outa control. Stay on station and it won’t do this. 

What a helpful tip for new people trying out AAR. Ever thought about instructing?

[markom]

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

In single player you can just select unlimited fuel. If you want to experience refueling during the mission just fly behind the tanker and pretend you’re refueling. How would that really be any less realistic than Auto AAR?

This is a fair question, and what it offers is the step in the right direction. Players would still need to worry about the fuel, and would still need to fly to the tanker, and still remain within some reasonable bubble around it for a period  of time, and then poof, the fuel is in. This would help lots of people conquer the whole idea of formation flying. After that is a small step toward the real thing. Think of it as a training tool :-).

8 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

It doesn’t do this unless you get all outa control. Stay on station and it won’t do this. 

This is not entirely true, if the mission is using MOOSE with, for example, carrier tanker.

Edited May 3, 2023 by markom

[SharpeXB]

25 minutes ago, JCTherik said:

Which means, if the option to add a 30 meter magnet to the basket is available, I'm very worried that sooner or later, I'll be forced to choose between playing on an empty server, or playing on a server with this setting on.

I have to notice that easy options tend to fill severs up with reckless players. We don’t need more of that. So you’d see this option disabled as a form of gate keeping IMO. So no point in asking for it. 

11 minutes ago, markom said:

This is a fair question, and what it offers is the step in the right direction.

What I’m saying is the game already has the option for unlimited fuel so why does SP need Auto AAR?

11 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

What a helpful tip for new people trying out AAR. Ever thought about instructing?

Nobody would listen to my advice because I would just tell them to practice a lot. 
Naw what I’d say is realize this is just like a car or bicycle which I’m sure everyone here can operate. Look how you keep your balance or speed in traffic with small constant adjustments you aren’t even aware of. Do the same thing with your game controls and you got it. And practice a lot. 

Edited May 3, 2023 by SharpeXB

[Furiz]

4 hours ago, markom said:

And? So what if they are, in fact lazy and don't want to put the effort in? Should thy not be able to play?

They can off course play, they can even AAR if they put in some time and practice

 

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Look how you keep your balance or speed in traffic with small constant adjustments you aren’t even aware of. Do the same thing with your game controls and you got it.

Exactly, what I'm saying all the time, practice and you can do it, just like riding a bike or driving a car.

[Exorcet]

  

15 hours ago, Furiz said:

No it doesn't have those kind of assist like AAR assist would be.

Help in learning something, yea off course, it will guide you through it but it wont hold your hand doing it.

AAR assist really doesn't fit with this sim.

 

It's all the same. You're making completely arbitrary distinctions. As if AAR assist can't help you learn manual AAR. That's highly dependent on the person.

Also how does auto rudder not hold your hand? It literally controls the rudder for you so you don't have to.

 

  

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

In single player you can just select unlimited fuel. If you want to experience refueling during the mission just fly behind the tanker and pretend you’re refueling. How would that really be any less realistic than Auto AAR?

This has been answered 1000 times, but here is repeat 1001:

Unlimited fuel:

-Fixed aircraft weight

-Unlimited aircraft range/endurance

-Allows player to ignore tankers

-Does not help in learning or developing skill

AAR assist:

-Variable aircraft weight (realism)

-Limited aircraft range/endurance (realism)

-Player must respect tankers if mission requires more fuel than their aircraft carriers (realism)

-Can be a stepping stone to learning unassisted AAR

Edited May 3, 2023 by Exorcet

[JCTherik]

2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

2 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

If the ducking tanker didn't reel it's hose back in after a couple of minutes, people had an easier time.

I've seen quite a few people almost putting the tip in, only to have the tanker zip up the hose and throw them off their game.

It doesn’t do this unless you get all outa control. Stay on station and it won’t do this. 

Lot of people wobble way too much to stay in station, because they get way too close before they're ready and try to plug.

I always tell them, stay 100 meters behind, stop thinking about plugging, just follow the tanker in position, and if they can't even do that, to practice keeping one axis at a time still and in position.

Until they can stay still on all 3 axes behind the wing in the position, it makes no sense even trying to plug.

 

BUT NOOOOO, 3 seconds later you see them oscilating around the basket again, while making frustrated noises, while proclaiming that  "they've got this".

Obviously, in the futile attempt to forcefully keep themselves more still than they're ready for, they burn themselves out in frustration in 5 minutes, utter some expletives and give up.

 

 

[SharpeXB]

43 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

As if AAR assist can't help you learn manual AAR.

Nobody has defined what this is or how it could help. 

[Exorcet]

3 hours ago, JCTherik said:

a basket that snaps onto your airplane from 30 meters away because kids want to burner and spamraam 24/7.

I missed this before, but I think it's something important to point out because it basically characterizes the entire discussion.

 

You don't ask for AAR assist if you want to lean on AB and spam missiles. Your AB is the same with or without assists. What lets you set and forget throttle is unlimited fuel, which we have.

You ask for AAR assist because you're interested in refueling. The arguments against the option are more or less all backwards.

 

  

3 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Nobody has defined what this is or how it could help. 

It has also been posted 1000 times. So I'll repeat it for the 1001th time as I did the other thing.

 

If AAR assist is in the game:

-Players have to learn fuel management

-Players are encouraged to deal with tankers

-Players still have to find (Briefing, Mission Planning, TACAN, radio) tankers

Possible assists:

-Extended boom

-Fuel auto transferred when X distance from tanker

-Autopilot

Edited May 3, 2023 by Exorcet

[SharpeXB]

44 minutes ago, Exorcet said:

This has been answered 1000 times, but here is repeat 1001:

Unlimited fuel:

-Fixed aircraft weight

-Unlimited aircraft range/endurance

-Allows player to ignore tankers

-Does not help in learning or developing skill

AAR assist:

-Variable aircraft weight (realism)

-Limited aircraft range/endurance (realism)

-Player must respect tankers if mission requires more fuel than their aircraft carriers (realism)

-Can be a stepping stone to learning unassisted AAR

So if someone wants to experience this extra level of immersion and gameplay, then that’s an incentive to learn AAR. 

Again I haven’t seen an explanation of how “AAR assist” would work or help anyone learn. 

[Exorcet]

1 minute ago, SharpeXB said:

So if someone wants to experience this extra level of immersion and gameplay, then that’s an incentive to learn AAR. 

Again I haven’t seen an explanation of how “AAR assist” would work or help anyone learn. 

We don't need or want incentives. How people play is up to them, not other people. We need options.

[SharpeXB]

Just now, Exorcet said:

We don't need or want incentives. How people play is up to them, not other people. We need options.

DCS is interactive entertainment, not a movie. If you want to just watch a plane fly all by itself go for Netflix

 

Again you’re not explaining what this “option” is. 

[Nodak]

It's hard to keep station on an aircraft that's basically little more than a low resolution blob.  There's more detail and easier flying the wing off a newer module single seater than trying to do it off a 135's wing.  How do you go about judging accurate distance and depth on a huge blob with nearly no detail?