Quest Pro vs G2 Impressions - 4090/7950x3D

[nikoel]

Thanks @slughead

A few updates - my opinion only. The more I tweak the better its getting

72hz at 36 2 Frame Hold is not great. Too much blur. I have not tried 40FPS @ 80hz - But I am doubtful that 4 frames are going to make much of a difference. I am currently sticking with 90hz with 45FPS Forced no ASW. When I pickup the 5090 next gen I believe I may just go for 72hz and forget about all these issues forever... until of course we get even more punishing graphics settings... 

Headroom is better spent on higher DCS settings and resolution than on the 27 extra frames (more like 40 extra frames when considering the extra overhead required not to go below 72) 

I am currently Running the beta and what was reported is correct, the resolutions have changed. I am one notch below 5000px (cant recall the full number of the top of my head) now set 1.2x. Running via link cable, with encoding set at 900mb/s (You cant type in a value higher than 500, but you can copy and paste the higher value - wut?!). My USB-C Port/Cable Combo is good for 3GB/s according to the inbuilt testing app and I saw no issues with this. Additionally I am sticking to 45FPS which means there is additional room for higher bandwidth compared to pushing 72FPS

Did an other A-B Comparison - there is less shimmer with the Quest. I believe this is because of the orientation of the panels - read pixels - which are angled diagonally 

I have oriented the headset in number of ways, and the one way which made a major difference is positioning the headset tilted down. So the cushion behind you sits slightly higher and the headset almost rests across the upper cheeks and the ridgeline of my nose. Now the FOV is dramatically better than G2. This can only happen because of the optics as my eyes are not in the "sweetspot"

You can purchase an extra set of side blockers and do a bit of DIY to mount them on the top of the headset, giving you cat ears. This of course makes it clearly the best headset money can buy

With the picture I am getting, dare I say, [to me] the USB-C is better than Displayport connection because the cable is magnitudes lighter and skinnier than HP's G2 Cable. I don't know if HP made it this chunky because they had to or because they chose to. Either way, the cable doesn't pull or upset the balance of the headset as you turn your head around. I'm currently enjoying starting dogfights with the bandit already on my 6 and it's nice to simply forget about it

Played for 4 hours last night. Battery went to 81%

Edited May 15, 2023 by nikoel

[Sile]

hey @nikoel, thanks for your reports. I find them very informative and interesting since i'm also on the fence for a QPro.

To better classify your result: May I ask what system you are using?  CPU / GPU / (RAM)?

Battery going down to ~80% seems to be normal behaviour for running and charging the QPro with link cable.
I read it should hold that charging state forever with a proper cable and capable port...?!

Are you using the 129 $ link cable from Meta?

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by Sile

[slughead]

3 hours ago, nikoel said:

When I pickup the 5090 next gen

You'll probably need an up-to-date motherboard to get it running at its full PCI bus transfer speed. I fell into that trap with the 4090. My motherboard was PCI3 and the 4090 PCI4. It made quite a difference in benchmark scores getting my rig up to PCI4 standard.

 

3 hours ago, nikoel said:

I am currently Running the beta

If you mean the beta of the Oculus software, i.e. the PTC or public test channel revert ASAP. I have been monitoring the META Quest forum and the PTC threads and every time a new PTC is released, they break something significant. So I have stayed well out of that nightmare. However, it appears that even on a regular release channel you can't prevent the headset from doing an update automagically!

3 hours ago, nikoel said:

with encoding set at 900mb/s

I am using the dynamic bit rate. I messed about with fixed encoder rates for a while and was never happy with it. In the end, I decided to leave the ODT settings at stock. I have read in a few places that the snapdragon is unable to encode at higher rates. If that is true, it would explain why the higher rates aren't in the drop-down box and people are copying/pasting the numbers in. That's just a bug in the GUI for the ODT. Remember, the ODT is a debug tool. It's not really meant for general public use so it's going to be less polished than release code. I've been trying to find some API documentation so that I can verify what is actually supported.

[nikoel]

4 hours ago, Sile said:

hey @nikoel, thanks for your reports. I find them very informative and interesting since i'm also on the fence for a QPro.

To better classify your result: May I ask what system you are using?  CPU / GPU / (RAM)?

Battery going down to ~80% seems to be normal behaviour for running and charging the QPro with link cable.
I read it should hold that charging state forever with a prober cable and capable port...?!

Are you using the 129 $ link cable from Meta?

 

 

I am using a 5800X3D with -25 Offset Voltage, 6900XT @2800mhz // Fast Timing 2150mhz VRAM with SAM enabled and modified vbios to 350W sustained. slightly held back by PCIE Gen 4 x8 (because I have ran out of PCIE allocations as I use this computer for work), Ram doesn't matter with 5800X3D - mine is middle of line but I have a lot of it 3200mhz/CL16 64GB

I am using the Meta Link Cable, I gathered that there is a reason it's so expensive and didn't want to kneecap myself by cheapening out on it

Some people's motherboards can provide enough juice, some people's can't. For me it doesn't matter, if we do the math 4hrs playtime = 19% Discharge, therefore 100% gives me a theoretical 21hrs of gameplay until empty This is wrong see my next post below

4 hours ago, slughead said:

You'll probably need an up-to-date motherboard to get it running at its full PCI bus transfer speed. I fell into that trap with the 4090. My motherboard was PCI3 and the 4090 PCI4. It made quite a difference in benchmark scores getting my rig up to PCI4 standard.

 

If you mean the beta of the Oculus software, i.e. the PTC or public test channel revert ASAP. I have been monitoring the META Quest forum and the PTC threads and every time a new PTC is released, they break something significant. So I have stayed well out of that nightmare. However, it appears that even on a regular release channel you can't prevent the headset from doing an update automagically!

I am using the dynamic bit rate. I messed about with fixed encoder rates for a while and was never happy with it. In the end, I decided to leave the ODT settings at stock. I have read in a few places that the snapdragon is unable to encode at higher rates. If that is true, it would explain why the higher rates aren't in the drop-down box and people are copying/pasting the numbers in. That's just a bug in the GUI for the ODT. Remember, the ODT is a debug tool. It's not really meant for general public use so it's going to be less polished than release code. I've been trying to find some API documentation so that I can verify what is actually supported.

Yeah, thankfully I do. I have a Gen 4 Motherboard. But by that stage 5090 comes out I may already be rocking a 8950X3D so it won't matter

Interesting re Beta Channel. I haven't had issues but I guess I'll try both the versions as I haven't had much time with either. I have started the downgrade back to main build

What Dynamic Bit Rate are you using? Have you also tried H264/265 to see which you prefer? I do recall seeing the number sticking inside the Oculus Diagnostic Popup thing. True about ODT being a debug tool, but there are lots of features that we know work that are useful that are hidden in there (Eg ASW), it's figuring out what works and what doesn't. Otherwise we only have access to resolution and refresh-rate and that seems very limiting

Can you take a screenshot of what settings you're currently running and why? Mine are below, I am still experimenting obviously so I am not implying they are any good like I did with OpenXR & G2 back in the day

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by nikoel

[slughead]

5 minutes ago, nikoel said:

What Dynamic Bit Rate are you using?

Just default now.

 

5 minutes ago, nikoel said:

Have you also tried H264/265 to see which you prefer?

I have heard mention of this but am unable to find where it is configured. I think this must be a new feature in the v54 PTC build as the video codec option is not available on my ODT. What is your insight into the two different encoder options?

 

The multiplier number in the render resolution is misleading. It currently says 1.1x for me. I just adjust it upwards until the font in the DED (F-16) is clear/sharp then no higher. That equates to a resolution of 4704 minimum. My ASW is set to Auto. It's akin to the open XR toolkit motion projection set to unlocked.

 

nullnull

[diamond26]

7 minutes ago, slughead said:

21 minutes ago, nikoel said:

What Dynamic Bit Rate are you using?

Just default now.

I'm also thinking about QPro, so this discussion is really interesting.

Currently using Q2, I'm surprised that default encode bitrate is not giving you worst visuals compared to 350 or more. In Q2 there is a clear difference to the worst if I use the default option (more blurry). While Airlink requires default to work properly.

[slughead]

2 minutes ago, diamond26 said:

I'm also thinking about QPro, so this discussion is really interesting.

Currently using Q2, I'm surprised that default encode bitrate is not giving you worst visuals compared to 350 or more. In Q2 there is a clear difference to the worst if I use the default option (more blurry). While Airlink requires default to work properly.

I know. I have tried fixed-rate encoding and found the default dynamic to be just as good. Perhaps I will give the fixed rate another try now that I've been using the headset for a number of weeks.

[nikoel]

@Sile - you were100%  right, my battery does not go below 80%

@slughead - From what I understand H264 is more resource intensive but can create an image with fewer artifacts and H265 has higher efficiency but can create a slightly worse image. And yeah, I just saw that option disappear when I switched away from the Beta Branch

Yeah, it's funny when I switched I went to 4864 x 2448 however my multiplier is at 1.3x there is something weird going on with the resolutions and different refresh rates and different version numbers

After doing a few more tweaks I finally settled on these settings, it's about 90% to the sweetspot resolution of the G2 but across the entire view. Getting the right fit and position was half the battle. The other biggest difference was going for the higher resolution, 900mb/s Encode and finally 45FPS with ASW disabled/90hz

I think I am done with tweaking settings until I can get a card that can achieve 72FPS across all scenarios. I might go back to 72hz every once in a while as normal dogfights I can keep the FPS above 72

nullnull

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by nikoel

[YoYo]

8 hours ago, slughead said:

How to understand this resolution? On G2 I have 3156 pxt but on ... one eye. So we have 6312 pxt on G2 to these 4704 pxt, right? So there seems to be quite a few "virtual" pixels missing in upscaling. Can you get around 6312 x 3088 on screen with Quest Pro so to have the same up scaling resolution like G2?

My G2 resolution (OpenVR or OpenXR)

I'm thinking about Quest Pro a bit, but I don't want to have downgrade.

6 hours ago, nikoel said:

I think I am done with tweaking settings until I can get a card that can achieve 72FPS across all scenarios. I might go back to 72hz every once in a while as normal dogfights I can keep the FPS above 72

 

 

No such GPU yet . Wait for 5090. Over London, at low level you can have 45-68 fps on 4090.

Edited May 15, 2023 by YoYo

[Baldrick33]

3 minutes ago, YoYo said:

How to understand this resolution? On G2 I have 3156 pxt but on ... one eye. So we have 6312 pxt on G2 to these 4704 pxt, right? So there seems to be quite a few "virtual" pixels missing in upscaling. Can you get around 6312 x 3088 on screen with Quest Pro so to have the same up scaling resolution like G2?

 

The G2 lenses require a higher resolution than the panel I believe to allow for barrel distortion compared with the original G1. I would guess the pancake lenses in the QP have minimal barrel distortion so a resolution closer to the panel resolution would give a similar quality image. 

[slughead]

The G2 panels are i2160x2160 pixels.

[YoYo]

4 minutes ago, slughead said:

The G2 panels are i2160x2160 pixels.

But I asked about upscaling, not native resolution which no one seems to use in simulators. Quest Pro has 1800x1920.

8 minutes ago, Baldrick33 said:

The G2 lenses require a higher resolution than the panel I believe to allow for barrel distortion compared with the original G1. I would guess the pancake lenses in the QP have minimal barrel distortion so a resolution closer to the panel resolution would give a similar quality image. 

Interesting theory, so theoretically you wouldn't need to give such a high resolution, which will result in better performance. 

[slughead]

40 minutes ago, YoYo said:

Can you get around 6312 x 3088 on screen with Quest Pro so to have the same up scaling resolution like G2?

Trying to compare apples to pears isn't going to work as the G2 and QP lenses are very different.

Just like OpenComposite allowed variable motion reprojection rates that shifted the goal from fps to perceived smooth gameplay, the QP doesn't appear to need the same amount of pixels or super-sampled pixels to achieve clarity. And with the QP it is edge-to-edge clarity.

I thought the same as you initially as I had (and still do have) a G2 until I tried the QP. As it was on a 30-day trial offer I had nothing to lose. Is the 30-day return offer available to you?

[Baldrick33]

1 hour ago, YoYo said:

Interesting theory, so theoretically you wouldn't need to give such a high resolution, which will result in better performance. 

I once had both a G1 and G2. The G2 was superior graphics wise (but not sweet spot wise) if I cranked up the resolution over 3000x3000 but at the cost of performance inevitably. At lower resolutions ~2500x2500 if anything the G1 looked better. I ended up keeping the G1 and selling the G2 which was never the plan. I remember reading the new lenses were optimised at higher resolutions which explained the significant hike in the default SteamVR resolution for the new model.

Pancake lenses should have much lower barrel distortion so the distance between pixels around the centre should be lower not needing oversampling to fill the gaps. Or something like that. It does seem to be borne out in the real world usage judging by this thread.

[YoYo]

Thanks guys, and another question, does Quest Pro also work with OpenXR Toolkit (mbucchia) and Reshade for VR (OpenVR)?

1 hour ago, slughead said:

Is the 30-day return offer available to you?

I need to check it.

BTW. As I understand it, you also need to buy a connecting cable (I prefer the old way of connecting and charging, although this Meta is exaggerated in price, there are cheaper alternatives) and a full gasket with light blocking to have quite similar comfort like with G2? All in all, they gave a discount, but because of the prices of accessories, it's a small change in total. 

Edited May 15, 2023 by YoYo

[nikoel]

6 hours ago, YoYo said:

Thanks guys, and another question, does Quest Pro also work with OpenXR Toolkit (mbucchia) and Reshade for VR (OpenVR)?

I need to check it.

BTW. As I understand it, you also need to buy a connecting cable (I prefer the old way of connecting and charging, although this Meta is exaggerated in price, there are cheaper alternatives) and a full gasket with light blocking to have quite similar comfort like with G2? All in all, they gave a discount, but because of the prices of accessories, it's a small change in total. 

 

Yes it works with OpenXR Toolkit.
 

The colours and dynamic range are significantly superior so the panels look very close to the way 2D DCS looks. I don’t miss reshade - I believe last time I checked you need to run DCS via SteamVR to get reshade working 

My only tweak in toolkit is to boost the greens a little to give me a more contrasting HUD. (Cheating really, the real life HUD’s I’ve had have been trash against bright backdrops so it’s actually quite realistic to lose the HUD)

Re accessories. You can get the gasket off AliExpress for pennies (I don’t want or need it, the side skirt cat ears are good enough and provide good ventilation. The Meta Earphones that I also ordered are trash. I don’t know if my AirPods Pro have ruined me but they are worse than $20 pair from your local servo. Avoid.
 

The cable… there are cheaper cables out there but you’re penny pinching in front of a freight train. We are already sending compressed video signal over it, and the cheaper cable may work just fine but you may find out that there is a reason it’s cheaper too

Edited May 16, 2023 by nikoel

[slughead]

How much is the headset again and thinking of cheating out on a cable? Take a look at the review on Amazon of some of those cheap cables and see the horror photos of burnt out connectors and headset sockets. Meta isn’t going to replace a headset if it gets damaged due to using non-meta cables.

I actually fly about without any masks mostly. The full mask is needed for night flights though although the half mask is ok too for that. Nothing like getting blinded by something on your monitor in a night flight when looking out on your 3-9 line.

[Sile]

Headset and cable are on their way.

What software is needed?

- I see screenshots of that dark mode software with res slider. Seems mandatory.
- Then there is ODT? „… Dev Tool“.   And OTT? „… Tray Tool“?! Both needed?
- And do i need to have a developer account for the ODT?

And is there a way to start DCS from the 2D desktop or do i have to it from within the headset?
Can this be done without ever touching the controllers like in the G2?

 

[YoYo]

2 hours ago, Sile said:

Headset and cable are on their way.

What software is needed?

- I see screenshots of that dark mode software with res slider. Seems mandatory.
- Then there is ODT? „… Dev Tool“.   And OTT? „… Tray Tool“?! Both needed?
- And do i need to have a developer account for the ODT?

And is there a way to start DCS from the 2D desktop or do i have to it from within the headset?
Can this be done without ever touching the controllers like in the G2?

 

+1

Im still thnking about Quest Pro but short guide could be nice how to start it. Im totally noob if we talk about Meta solutions.

[slughead]

2 hours ago, Sile said:

Headset and cable are on their way.

What software is needed?

- I see screenshots of that dark mode software with res slider. Seems mandatory.
- Then there is ODT? „… Dev Tool“.   And OTT? „… Tray Tool“?! Both needed?
- And do i need to have a developer account for the ODT?

And is there a way to start DCS from the 2D desktop or do i have to it from within the headset?
Can this be done without ever touching the controllers like in the G2?

 

The dark mode software you are talking about is the Oculus app that you download from Meta when installing the headset. Just follow the instructions with your headset. There really isn't much to do to get the headset installed and going. The one key thing is setting Oculus as the OpenXR runtime instead of Steam in the Oculus app settings.

I advise you to not join the beta program. The last few releases have been very unreliable according to the feedback on the Meta forums and left some folk with unusable headsets or controllers, battery drain issues etc.

ODT is the Oculus debug tool - part of the installation of the above.

OTT - Oculus Tray Tool - search Google for it. It's not absolutely necessary and I don't use it anymore.

A developer account is not necessary unless you want to try using your hands to control switches in the cockpit using the HTCC (hand-tracked cockpit clicking) that Fred Emmott wrote - GitHub - fredemmott/HTCC: Hand tracking for flight simulator cockpit clicking

 

You first have to connect the headset to the desktop (PC) using the Oculus Link from within the headset, then you can launch DCS as usual from the PC.

If you enable hand gestures in the headset all of the above can be done without the controllers bar launching from the desktop (you need a mouse for that).

 

Walk before you can run. Just get it working first and then go from there. No need to use anything but the Oculus app and the headset to start with. Then you can venture into the ODT as you inevitably will.

[Sile]

thank you! @slughead

[YoYo]

Yep, Thank You for your time!

[VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants]

A bit off topic. The only gripes I have with Oculus Link mode are: no full hand controller support, and it is not the PC desktop by default.

[Sile]

vor einer Stunde schrieb VR Flight Guy in PJ Pants:

A bit off topic. The only gripes I have with Oculus Link mode are: no full hand controller support, and it is not the PC desktop by default.

What does that mean, can you explain, please?

Do you mean "hand tracking support?"

Edited May 17, 2023 by Sile

[slughead]

Just now, Sile said:

What does that mean, can you explain, please?

When he says "hand controller" he meant hand gestures. When you connect to the PC with Oculus Link, hand gestures are not supported such as pinching with fingers to select or pointing with the hand. Instead, you have to use the electronic hand controllers. But you don't need either if you are just launching DCS as you will be using a mouse.