correct as is F16 Still Underperforming

[Fulcrumkiller31]

 I think a lot of people compare our Viper to earlier models that weigh less. In addition people compare our Hornet with 404 EPE with the more common standard 404 found on most navy Hornets. They are different beasts. Our Viper can be dominant in BFM if flown correctly as an energy fighter instead of just trying to rate everything like GS against paddle pulling F18s and Mirages alike. 

Flight your fight for whatever aircraft you are flying, know your adversary and their strengths .

[gavagai]

39 minutes ago, Fulcrumkiller31 said:

 I think a lot of people compare our Viper to earlier models that weigh less. In addition people compare our Hornet with 404 EPE with the more common standard 404 found on most navy Hornets. They are different beasts. Our Viper can be dominant in BFM if flown correctly as an energy fighter instead of just trying to rate everything like GS against paddle pulling F18s and Mirages alike. 

Flight your fight for whatever aircraft you are flying, know your adversary and their strengths .

The earlier variants also had significantly less thrust. Weight is only one part of the equation. For example, the F-14B is heavier than the A model, but the B outrates the A because the B has more thrust.

I suspect you are flying against AI or some very weak human opponents, but I will keep an open mind. Can you post a track or video to back up your claim that the DCS F-16 is a "dominant" energy fighter in BFM? Against a decent human opponent of course.

Thanks.

[darkman222]

Earlier variants of what aircraft had less thrust? The Viper? I did some reasearch and math, and its like 5% difference between models up to block 52. But just quick research, feel free to correct me.

Talking about DCS only, not real life. The only chance on guns only dogfight servers in an F16 against F18 is to turn around as quick as possible after merge and shoot it in the face. If the F18 survives the first merge, you have to be really creative in the F16  against a competent F18 driver.

What Mirage dudes do is to jink like crazy, so you gotta slow down with them. Then you overshoot, maybe try to go over the top, but then the Mirage already sits in your turn circle and stays. And after the Mirage FM change, it will just sit in your turn circle and wont stop pointing at you, while not bleeding enough enery for the F16 to turn the tables.

Edit: And if I switch side to the F18, I absolutely know why people pull the paddle. Because that thing just does not stop to speed up. If you want to conserve energy you need to pull the paddle to stay in the 370 kts area. Or use speed brakes or throttle down. But why would you do that if you can use the speed, for better turn rate with the padde. As stupid as it sounds, but its understandable to adapt that habit.

Edited June 7, 2023 by darkman222

[gavagai]

Yes, I agree with that analysis of DCS performance.

I only brought up rl thrust differences in response to fulcrumkiller. PW 220 is supposed to be 23770lb of thrust. GE 129 is 29500lb. That rounds to a 22% difference.

[GGTharos]

27 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

Edit: And if I switch side to the F18, I absolutely know why people pull the paddle. Because that thing just does not stop to speed up. If you want to conserve energy you need to pull the paddle to stay in the 370 kts area. Or use speed brakes or throttle down. But why would you do that if you can use the speed, for better turn rate with the padde. As stupid as it sounds, but its understandable to adapt that habit.

I wonder if this an FLCS issue, or do you continue to speed up at 7.5g at 370kts?   In that case I suppose that's 'correctish', and an artifact of made up dogfight scenarios.

 

[GGTharos]

Ok, that superficially makes sense to me.  This hornet has higher TWR because of the -EPEs and a lot of fighters in this class can sustain 7-7.5 at those speeds, all of this stuff is flown clean.   That's not to say there might not be an error in the FM.

[Fulcrumkiller31]

1 hour ago, gortex said:

It seems like you're suggesting that the Viper should be flown like a WW2 energy fighter now for BFM?  Am I reading that correctly?

Not even close, use your TWR advantage, use a vertical flow,  go uphill against fighters that cant,  extend when you need to.  You can load the G on and do a very tight turn, then extend and regain hundreds on knots in seconds. Not many fighters can do that. Not to say things like the mirage and hornet don't have their own strengths. Like I said, use your strengths and don't let the adversary use his.

 

BFM isn't just lets rate at 9gs for 30 seconds around the circle. 

1 hour ago, gavagai said:

The earlier variants also had significantly less thrust. Weight is only one part of the equation. For example, the F-14B is heavier than the A model, but the B outrates the A because the B has more thrust.

I suspect you are flying against AI or some very weak human opponents, but I will keep an open mind. Can you post a track or video to back up your claim that the DCS F-16 is a "dominant" energy fighter in BFM? Against a decent human opponent of course.

Thanks.

The f16 and f14 also have VERY different wings. I'm not getting into that here, however yes I fly against plenty of humans. Try it out yourself.

[GGTharos]

8 minutes ago, gortex said:

But that is exactly how you energy fight with a WW2 plane.  So why did you say "not even close?"

Like he said, post a track or video showing how you dominate with the F-16.  Performance data or a video are more convincing than your words.

Most people think of energy fighting as BnZ.  That's not what he's talking about.

[wilbur81]

1 hour ago, gortex said:

Again, someone needs to post data or a track that shows how great the F-16 can be.  Why haven't they?

Now HERE's a guy in a Hornet getting dominated by a Viper in DCS.

...and another:

One can always say, "Well, those Hornet pilots aren't as good as the ones in the server I fly," etc. etc... May be true: Or it might also be true that a DCS Hornet WITHOUT  the paddle switch in use (as in these two vids) can get quite reasonably pummeled by the Viper in PvP BFM...if the pilot is solid. I think it is a well-worn, coffee-table-aviation-book myth that ALL versions of the Viper can dominate ALL versions of the Hornet in BFM, 90% of the time, pilot skill being equal.  The reality seems to be closer to 50:50 in the WVR arena...at least with late block/lot Vipers and Charlies... and keep in mind: NO real world Hornet pilot is EVER pulling the paddle switch in a training fight against a Viper, or any other airframe.

 

Edited June 7, 2023 by wilbur81

[Noctrach]

2 hours ago, Fulcrumkiller31 said:

Not even close, use your TWR advantage, use a vertical flow,  go uphill against fighters that cant,  extend when you need to.  You can load the G on and do a very tight turn, then extend and regain hundreds on knots in seconds. Not many fighters can do that. Not to say things like the mirage and hornet don't have their own strengths. Like I said, use your strengths and don't let the adversary use his.

 

BFM isn't just lets rate at 9gs for 30 seconds around the circle. 

The f16 and f14 also have VERY different wings. I'm not getting into that here, however yes I fly against plenty of humans. Try it out yourself.

First and foremost, I'm not gonna say the F-16 can't win a dogfight against peer adversaries because it does quite alright against the F-14, 15 and Mirage 2000 and pretty much crushes anything of earlier gens. On the whole I think the only thing we can comment on for the Viper specifically is that the general sustained numbers follow available documentation very fucking closely.

I will however say that there are precious few fighters in the 4th generation that can't follow an F-16 in uphill flow. This is mostly down to how much speed it bleeds when tightening the turn over the top. If there's anything wrong with the FM, it's likely found in how fast the jet shoots up in AoA. (That's for a clean jet, it gets much worse with even just outer pylons)

The problem there is that the F-14, 15 and 18 have almost identical climb performance, but

1. Don't suffer as badly from AoA-induced drag (partially because of their lower wing loading, but I am looking at the Hornet FM with moderate levels of suspicion).
2. Don't give a damn about high AoA manoeuvring because they don't have a limiter.

So in practice, going vertical against either of those three mostly ends up with 2 slow jets, one of which can just put nose on and trigger down.

Pilots being equivalent, no BFM errors, the Hornet is the only jet against which I feel the Viper hasn't a single viable game-plan. Then again, none of the other jets do either.

However, this is all mega theoretical and that proposed scenario doesn't factually exist. I don't think the Viper is as helpless as a lot of people seem to suggest.

[wilbur81]

7 minutes ago, Noctrach said:

First and foremost, I'm not gonna say the F-16 can't win a dogfight against peer adversaries because it does quite alright against the F-14, 15 and Mirage 2000 and pretty much crushes anything of earlier gens. On the whole I think the only thing we can comment on for the Viper specifically is that the general sustained numbers follow available documentation very fucking closely.

I will however say that there are precious few fighters in the 4th generation that can't follow an F-16 in uphill flow. This is mostly down to how much speed it bleeds when tightening the turn over the top. If there's anything wrong with the FM, it's likely found in how fast the jet shoots up in AoA. (That's for a clean jet, it gets much worse with even just outer pylons)

The problem there is that the F-14, 15 and 18 have almost identical climb performance, but

1. Don't suffer as badly from AoA-induced drag (partially because of their lower wing loading, but I am looking at the Hornet FM with moderate levels of suspicion).
2. Don't give a damn about high AoA manoeuvring because they don't have a limiter.

So in practice, going vertical against either of those three mostly ends up with 2 slow jets, one of which can just put nose on and trigger down.

Pilots being equivalent, no BFM errors, the Hornet is the only jet against which I feel the Viper hasn't a single viable game-plan. Then again, none of the other jets do either.

However, this is all mega theoretical and that proposed scenario doesn't factually exist. I don't think the Viper is as helpless as a lot of people seem to suggest.

Good post and thoughts.  Regarding the statement above, "the Hornet is the only jet against which I feel the Viper hasn't a single viable game-plan," are you confident that these experiences for you are against Hornet fliers that are not using the Paddle?

Additionally, I have a good number of critiques for the (losing) Hornet flying being done in the two videos posted above. What would your critiques be of how those Hornet flyers lost against the Viper in these 5-6 PvP losses?

 

Edited June 7, 2023 by wilbur81

[sinn]

On 6/5/2023 at 11:14 AM, gortex said:

 

This is by far the best post in this thread so far. I was able to very closely reproduce these results myself and I recommend that everybody who's interested in this topic try it also.

The aircraft stores configuration and fuel load is one that is widely used in the most active multiplayer guns servers and regardless of what any thinks about it, this represents the setup and altitude range that the OPs referred to multiple times. Looking at the right side, it's clear as day that the only point in the flight envelope for this configuration where the viper is not performing worse than the others is mostly unusable because you will black out in a few seconds if the DCS g modeling is enabled (which it will be on nearly every server).

It is interesting to note how the viper is such an outlier over almost the entire range of the chart while the others are closely grouped until the F-15 begins to diverge. The size of that gap tells a large part of the story of why this thread was created. This chart clearly and convincingly supports the perception of the poor relative performance of the viper being reported. The factual basis to the experience reported by the OPs of this thread is right here.

I do believe that ED have done their best to model the aircraft accurately based on the available information. If at the end of the day after exhaustively reviewing this topic they determine they've got it right I think that's fine and a success at their goal of accuracy. A thoughtful explanation of how they arrived at that conclusion with some more detail than past explanations would help eliminate the speculation like this thread and be appreciated by the people reading this thread I'm sure. I also think they deserve some time to figure this out since the product is still actively being worked on.

Clearly, the viper is unique right now among these other DCS aircraft to a degree that is causing frustration because an explanation has not arrived yet which satisfies a large part of the community. Some people will never be happy of course and feelings and speculation should not deter the developers from their goal of accuracy, but I think it has been sufficiently proven that there is a reason people are feeling something is very different about this aircraft in a way that doesn't seem right or intuitive.

 

and one last thing...

I hope you're joking about the Gonky vs. Mover rematch being an example of the Viper dominating. With the utmost respect for the IRL achievements of both in that video, the magnitude of the of BFM errors happening in the Hornet would result in getting your butt kicked very hard on the DCS Dogfighters servers. This video mainly shows someone defeating them self.

The outcome of that or really any fight is not as helpful to this type of discussion as the results of repeatable experiments which can be independently verified.

[wilbur81]

13 minutes ago, sinn said:

 

I hope you're joking about the Gonky vs. Mover rematch being an example of the Viper dominating. With the utmost respect for the IRL achievements of both in that video, the magnitude of the of BFM errors happening in the Hornet would result in getting your butt kicked very hard on the DCS Dogfighters servers. This video mainly shows someone defeating them self.

 

Me: "I have a good number of critiques for the (losing) Hornet flying being done in the two videos posted above."

Also me from my earlier post in this thread:   https://forum.dcs.world/topic/323031-f16-still-underperforming/?do=findComment&comment=5223285

And finally, regarding the Viper vs Hornet piece of this, Gortex's graph was made with the Hornet's Paddle Switch engaged... in which case, realism bets are definitely off.

 

Edited June 7, 2023 by wilbur81

[sinn]

4 hours ago, wilbur81 said:

And finally, regarding the Viper vs Hornet piece of this, Gortex's graph was made with the Hornet's Paddle Switch engaged... in which case, realism bets are definitely off.

 

So do you think the observation of the Viper being an outlier among these aircraft in the chart would be materially different if the paddle was not used? My expectation is that even without the paddle, the Hornet will still perform much closer to the other aircraft at than the Viper at most speeds. The 7.5 G limit would reduce the Hornet's performance at higher speeds where loadings beyond the limit would actually be possible with the paddle.

To put what I was saying before more concisely, the chart shows that in DCS, using the configuration most likely to be encountered by someone doing multiplayer guns BFM (the scenario described by the OP where they observed poor relative performance), the Viper is clearly and substantially the worst performer among its closest peers in DCS to an extent where some people find it surprising and want to learn more about why this is the case.

The reason that the test was done with the paddle is because that is how the aircraft is typically used in the scenario described above which aligns with the multiplayer guns context of the OP. It's worth noting Gortex went out of his way to say he makes no claims about realism of either the performance numbers in observed in DCS for the tests or the aircraft setup used.

The use of the paddle does not invalidate what this graph shows about the scenario where the data was collected. I do think there is merit to studying this setup/scenario (with the paddle) because it reflects what many users will see in their DCS multiplayer guns experience due to the choices made by the server operators regardless if it's realistic. The M2k and (especially) the Eagle are still going to put a hurting on the Viper in DCS as things are now regardless of the paddle. The whole paddle realism thing definitely isn't the main factor for the observations that led to this thread starting.

I'm not criticizing anyone for their opinion on the use of the paddle just be clear, just reiterating what others said about the fact that it is typically used in the scenario being investigated here. Based on my experience in multiplayer DCS, the statement that the paddle is used unless there is a a gentlemen's agreement not to use it is correct.

[jaguara5]

On 6/5/2023 at 6:14 PM, gortex said:

@GGTharos Here is some quick data I ran today, ~200ft asl.  Every jet has a clean configuration. Fuel loads are the same as the Just Dogfight server, i.e. about 5 minutes.  Hornet uses the paddle switch because that is a fact of multiplayer. See for yourself how the jets we were discussing perform.  I'm guessing that it's even worse for the F-16 at higher altitudes.

Disclaimer: I make no claims about real world performance or how accurate DCS is.  This is just how the jets perform in the game (and no wonder the F-15 dominates BFM, holy smokes!).  Error is +/- 0.1g.

 

 

Do you  remember what the fuel load is in  %   for each ac? 

Edited June 8, 2023 by jaguara5

[wilbur81]

11 hours ago, sinn said:

 My expectation is that even without the paddle, the Hornet will still perform much closer to the other aircraft at than the Viper at most speeds. 

I guess we'll never know until Gortex runs the Viper vs Hornet tests without the Paddle with tracks included.  What say you, Gortex?   

Edited June 8, 2023 by wilbur81

[wilbur81]

2 minutes ago, gortex said:

@wilbur81 I've done it before, just not with Just Dogfight fuel loads.  Based on memory the paddle becomes important when you approach Mach 0.7.  I'll add the no-paddle Hornet for you later today.  I'll also look up the exact fuel % that Just Dogfight uses for @jaguara5

Awesome. Thanks, bud!  If you have time, you might go for more realistic flight configurations for both a/c as well.... not just the configs for the E-sports crowd. But I know time is limited. That sounds about right on the "approaching .7M" bit. At 300kts and lower, the Paddle will do very little for the Hornet except bleed it dry. I think what people don't realize is that in the Transonic region (and higher), the DCS Hornet becomes seemingly ridiculous with the Paddle in use...especially with its less realistic pilot G-tolerance model at high g.

[sinn]

Thanks for the fast update and great work collecting the data!

6 hours ago, gortex said:

It looks like the F-15 is intentionally nerfed with the smokepods.  In a clean configuration it outperforms the other fighters at any airspeed.

This is correct and they did this intentionally in the guns arena to even things out.

The chart reflects what my experiences on the DCS Dogfighters guns arena where a well flown F-18 or M2k can beat the smoke pod carrying F-15 in slow vertical fights or slow two circles when they achieve a guns solution before the Eagle can extend or regain speed.

I need to check, but I believe the DCS Dogfighters guns arena may now use smoke pods on the M2k for the same reason. I'll look into this and report back unless someone else knows or finds the answer first.

[sinn]

Check carefully -I think they may all have the nerf pods in guns arena even if they are not active on some, but I could be wrong.

[wilbur81]

Gortex, 

Thanks for taking the time, bud! Good work. I hope people can see just how massive a difference the Paddle Switch is in the Hornet (if you have to win with the Paddle, you're not good at BFM in the Hornet). Additionally that 82% Viper fuel vs 51% Hornet fuel will make a fairly big performance difference too: That is, flying a lighter Viper with 60% fuel or less makes it even more of a beast. The Hornet (no paddle) owns the slower speed stuff largely because of the straighter, larger wing.

Edited June 9, 2023 by wilbur81

[MARLAN_]

8 hours ago, wilbur81 said:

Gortex, 

Thanks for taking the time, bud! Good work. I hope people can see just how massive a difference the Paddle Switch is in the Hornet (if you have to win with the Paddle, you're not good at BFM in the Hornet). Additionally that 82% Viper fuel vs 51% Hornet fuel will make a fairly big performance difference too: That is, flying a lighter Viper with 60% fuel or less makes it even more of a beast. The Hornet (no paddle) owns the slower speed stuff largely because of the straighter, larger wing.

 

Look at STR and not just G. In my tests paddle only gives you about +0.1-0.2 deg/sec at the cost of flying on the edge of GLOC and arcing. I don't think it's an advantage at all except to fix gross errors when you start arcing.

[darkman222]

If it does not give you turn rate advantage it gives you the advantage that you dont need to throttle down or use the airbrakes. So your engine stays on, you dont lose thrust while spooling down and up again. And it gives you the advantage to stay on speed and not widening your turn circle. Also it gives the advantage of having a better nose authority for snapshots, before the the g limiter kicks in.

You can fix a lot of minor BFM errors with the cost of nothing.

Edited June 9, 2023 by darkman222

[Temetre]

Its kinda funny when people use realism standards to justify not using the paddle, but then talk about "cheating" (which is a gamey thing) when people do. Its like people take offense but dont know why or how to express it.

But yeah, the paddle really isnt that relevant to F-18 dogfighting.

Edited June 9, 2023 by Temetre

[Cab]

18 minutes ago, Temetre said:

Its kinda funny when people use realism standards to justify not using the paddle, but then talk about "cheating" (which is a gamey thing) when people do. Its like people take offense but dont know why or how to express it.

But yeah, the paddle really isnt that relevant to F-18 dogfighting.

 

What? Seriously, it's probably me, but I have no idea what your point is.

Also, your assessment of the paddle is just plain incorrect. The dominance of the Hornet in BFM is directly attributable to using the paddle.

[Temetre]

vor 53 Minuten schrieb gortex:

Some look down on the paddle because a 10g turn could compromise the jet for future sorties.  It's a role playing thing.

Oh, I do agree with it being unrealistic and an RP thing. But thats also why its silly to say its cheating, because thats saying people are wrong for not following your RP rules. That they arent living your personal fantasy.

Zitat

If you think the paddle isn't useful for dogfighting then please visit one of the dogfight servers.  I think you will change your mind. 

Im not saying its not useful, im saying its not required to dogfight well. You dont need it to make use of your nose-authority after you bleed some speed; and I dont think even STR/rate speed relies on pulling more than 7.5g?

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by Temetre