correct as is F16 Still Underperforming

[Gungho]

A real f16 pilot says the f16 is bleeding energy too quickly at 3:45 and 5:10 in the video. Ive been playing it since its early release mostly in the dogfighting servers and just get destroyed by f18s, mirages, and f15s pulling about 30% more aoa than me. I am experimenting with 330 knots v speeds minimum radius corner speeds instead of 430  maximum rate turns. 430 just is really easy to black out and even at a maximum radius turn I often get out rated by the mirage and f18s.

i like the bvr performance of the f16 though but as soon as i dogfight despite the f16 being my most played module i do much better dogfighting in the 18 or 15

Then ive been trying to follow this advice with better results but i still feel like the f16 is underperforming what are your thoughts?

 

 

 

Edited April 2, 2023 by Gungho

[Dragon1-1]

According to this, it's actually overperforming a little bit:
https://dcs.silver.ru/Diagram/F16C

G tolerance is an issue in DCS, you really should be fighting at 430 or a little more, but it's hard without blacking out.

[NineLine]

I love Max Afterburners' stuff, but he is very new to DCS, its possible it's a setup issue or something else, I will flag this with the team, but remember we also have a number of SMEs looking at our stuff as well as some FM stuff still in progress. Thanks. 

[Dragon1-1]

I'm pretty sure it's a G management issue here, more than anything. The Viper, particularly our Viper, hates being slow, and it really isn't that much of a radius fighter. It just doesn't have the nose authority at low speeds. It's a rate monster, especially when fast, and that's the way it should be flown in a dogfight. That, and vertical maneuvers, that's another thing the Viper is good at.

[Exorcet]

He's carrying bombs, as he mentions during the 3:45 segment. It's not really representative of the F-16 in dogfight trim. He's also not making definite statements, just going by rough feel. Even if he's right, it's kind of hard to know what to change.

[janitha2]

11 hours ago, NineLine said:

I love Max Afterburners' stuff, but he is very new to DCS, its possible it's a setup issue or something else, I will flag this with the team, but remember we also have a number of SMEs looking at our stuff as well as some FM stuff still in progress. Thanks. 

nice to see FM is being worked on thanks for the work!

[Furiz]

Above 20k it moves like a brick too

 

[Willdass]

On 4/2/2023 at 11:32 PM, NineLine said:

I love Max Afterburners' stuff, but he is very new to DCS, its possible it's a setup issue or something else, I will flag this with the team, but remember we also have a number of SMEs looking at our stuff as well as some FM stuff still in progress. Thanks. 

Great to hear that you are constantly working on improving the FM. Is pylon drag something you are looking into? Feels like there is a huge performance difference between a slick viper and one with a few pylons on (no stores), very hard to keep energy up. If the drag the pylons produce is realistic I'm of course fine that, but I'm interested to hear if this is something on ED's radar (?) 

[moggel]

Been doing some PvE BFM hops lately, to improve my abilities in the visual arena, and some of that has been vs the Mig-21 (skill = Ace). That thing often out rates me, even close to Viper's corner speed. Is it bugged or is that actually realistic?

[WinterH]

Forget the AI even exists, especially against a few worst offenders, which includes (but probably not limited to) MiG-21, MiG-15, and used to include F-5E too but I think it's reeled in now.

They are getting a new dogfight AI and a new "General Flight Model" system, so this will improve in coming months/year(s?), but especially at the "Ace" skill level many AI aircraft have some BS powers. They can simultaneously be too easy and too difficult, because their perf sometimes doesn't agree actual physics, but they are also super predictable.

Veteran level is less BS if you want to practice dogfighting vs AI. And even then, avoid certain aircraft that seem to have more questionable AI flight models like MiG-21.

[darkman222]

I dont know how the AI is with the new update we had. But before it did not obey the laws of physics... at all.

Also the G modelling gets into the way of the F16 rating as it should. The pilot is almost at the edge of conciousness when you want to make the final pull of the bandit into the HUD for the gunshot.

You basically learn bad habits with the current G modelling, because it turns out to be the limiting factor very often.

Edited April 6, 2023 by darkman222

[GGTharos]

G modeling is fine; not sure why you'd want to be at a gazillion g at all times.   You can turn very well in the viper anywhere between 360-440, depending on gross weight and stores and what your opponent is doing and you won't g your brains out.   The MiG-21bis can sustain some 6g at M0.8 on the deck, 6.5 at 0.9m.  Not comparable to viper, eagle, or even hornet ... until it plugs in emergency afterburner and adds nearly 0.5-2gs (depends on speed) to its sustained capability.

Yes, the AI does cheat, but all you need to do to defeat it is add a little vertical and force it into a fight it doesn't want to do - it will choose one or two circle depending on which aircraft its flying and what it's opponent is, and it will never change this decision - it's also really slow to reset itself into the desired fight, so there are plenty of ways to defeat it.

[S]

4 hours ago, GGTharos said:

G modeling is fine; not sure why you'd want to be at a gazillion g at all times.   You can turn very well in the viper anywhere between 360-440, depending on gross weight and stores and what your opponent is doing and you won't g your brains out.   The MiG-21bis can sustain some 6g at M0.8 on the deck, 6.5 at 0.9m.  Not comparable to viper, eagle, or even hornet ... until it plugs in emergency afterburner and adds nearly 0.5-2gs (depends on speed) to its sustained capability.

Yes, the AI does cheat, but all you need to do to defeat it is add a little vertical and force it into a fight it doesn't want to do - it will choose one or two circle depending on which aircraft its flying and what it's opponent is, and it will never change this decision - it's also really slow to reset itself into the desired fight, so there are plenty of ways to defeat it.

G modeling is not fine. Watch any of the former F-16 pilots on YouTube talk about 9G in dogfights and how that is a defining advantage of the Viper against other planes. Anything over 7-7.5G for more than 5 seconds and you black out in DCS. Hasard Lee just put out a short the other day talking about pulling 9G and having some burst blood vessels in his arm from doing it. He didn't experience GLOC. Also, C.W. Lemoine talks about how the Viper in DCS doesn't have the acceleration during 4+ G maneuvering that the real Viper has. IIRC he mentioned accelerating all the way up to 7G with full blower. Go over 4G in a horizontal turn in the DCS Viper and you're definitely losing energy, not accelerating. 

[GGTharos]

3 hours ago, S said:

Watch any of the former F-16 pilots on YouTube talk about 9G in dogfights

No, I won't.  Studies on g tolerance are far more valuable.

3 hours ago, S said:

Anything over 7-7.5G for more than 5 seconds and you black out in DCS.

Pretty sure I can hold 8 in the viper, but maybe I'm not remembering right.

3 hours ago, S said:

Hasard Lee just put out a short the other day talking about pulling 9G and having some burst blood vessels in his arm from doing it. He didn't experience GLOC. Also, C.W. Lemoine talks about how the Viper in DCS doesn't have the acceleration during 4+ G maneuvering that the real Viper has. IIRC he mentioned accelerating all the way up to 7G with full blower. Go over 4G in a horizontal turn in the DCS Viper and you're definitely losing energy, not accelerating. 

I can overspeed the viper at any time, just need to be at the right speed.  Show it's wrong against the charts, then ED will take action.

[GGTharos]

15 hours ago, moggel said:

Been doing some PvE BFM hops lately, to improve my abilities in the visual arena, and some of that has been vs the Mig-21 (skill = Ace). That thing often out rates me, even close to Viper's corner speed. Is it bugged or is that actually realistic?

Just flew a simple rate game against the 21bis.  Nothing special, full fuel +2 9Ms on the viper, clean MiG-21, again full fuel.  It was not able to out-rate me.

[MiG21bisFishbedL]

21 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

Show it's wrong against the charts, then ED will take action.

But, we can't exactly post charts of the Viper, can we? 1.6 and all.

[GGTharos]

You can send them to ED.

[S]

5 hours ago, GGTharos said:

I can overspeed the viper at any time, just need to be at the right speed.  Show it's wrong against the charts, then ED will take action.

Do you mean over G the Viper? I don't want to assume you're talking gibberish here.  

My point wasn't about over-G'ing the airplane, btw. It was about the jet being able to accelerate (gain speed) when it's pulling 4+ G. I don't have the charts, and wouldn't want to pull a WT if I did, so that's not happening. Like I said in my first post in this thread - it's anecdotal based on C.W. Lemoine talking about the DCS Viper compared to his recollection of the real-world Viper.

Edited April 7, 2023 by S
Forgot to write the rest of the post.

[Furiz]

Start watching at 1:04:06 - talks about Viper vs Fishbed

 

Edited April 7, 2023 by Furiz

[diego999]

AI cheats. Simple as that.

[BIGNEWY]

On 4/6/2023 at 9:01 AM, moggel said:

Been doing some PvE BFM hops lately, to improve my abilities in the visual arena, and some of that has been vs the Mig-21 (skill = Ace). That thing often out rates me, even close to Viper's corner speed. Is it bugged or is that actually realistic?

add a short track replay so we can take a look. But usually it is because the pilot does not manage his speed correctly and gets to slow. 

thanks

[GGTharos]

11 hours ago, S said:

Do you mean over G the Viper? I don't want to assume you're talking gibberish here.  

It doesn't allow me to over-g it, so, no.    But sure, overspeed has a specific meaning and I'm not using it that way; yep, I can accelerate while holding a 4g turn, no problem.  Just have to be in the rate band or above.  I can accelerate at 9g after exceeding a certain speed also.

11 hours ago, S said:

My point wasn't about over-G'ing the airplane, btw. It was about the jet being able to accelerate (gain speed) when it's pulling 4+ G. I don't have the charts, and wouldn't want to pull a WT if I did, so that's not happening. Like I said in my first post in this thread - it's anecdotal based on C.W. Lemoine talking about the DCS Viper compared to his recollection of the real-world Viper.

Anecdotes don't make FMs and have no bearing on performance for obvious reasons.

Edited April 7, 2023 by GGTharos

[FusRoPotato]

The only real issue I've been seeing on the 16 is the sluggish control response. Other than that, the popular dogfighting expectations of this aircraft are usually far overblown. It's measured CL/CD per alpha is shallow and wing loading much higher than a lot of other fighters.

I think the more obvious issue is when other aircraft in this game *COFFM2000COFHFGH** don't have nearly the drag they are supposed to at low speeds and high alpha.

[VarZat]

8 hours ago, FusRoPotato said:

The only real issue I've been seeing on the 16 is the sluggish control response.

I suggest a negative curve

[moggel]

On 4/7/2023 at 6:06 PM, BIGNEWY said:

add a short track replay so we can take a look. But usually it is because the pilot does not manage his speed correctly and gets to slow. 

thanks

Yep. I need to up my game in the visual arena, that's for sure.