Intel or AMD?

[Transit]

Does DCS do better with high clock speed or low latency 3D cache?  Multiplayer yes but No VR.  1440p target resolution.  Been away from DCS for a few years.

Considering either the 12900K or an **X3D offering but also wonder if I even need i9/R9 if I won't be using a VR headset.  Tried VR previously but it just wasn't for me..

Upgrade will have 4080, 32GB DDR5, 3 IPS panels and TrackIR.  Not sure what additional relevant information is needed.

Coming from 8700k, 1080ti, single Ultrawide panel.

[BitMaster]

Why would you choose a 12th gen Intel over a 13th gen if you buy new ? 

The newer one has a clear IPC advantage if you even consider Intel at all, which leads us to your main question.

I would definitely go AMD 7000X3D and I would NOT go 32GB but 64GB. 32GB doesn't cut it anymore and you don't even need VR or 4K to blow past the 32GB barrier.

 

[Transit]

@BitMaster Price is the sole reason for considering 12th gen over 13, in this case it's a $225 difference for about 10% performance uptick.  The 32GB (roughly $175) would be a start with the ability to add more later.  I can put that $350-400 savings towards a better GPU. Can you please further explain your recommendation on the AMD processor?  The main question was whether DCS prefers high clock speed vs 3D V-cache.  I, too, can recommend anything to anyone without offering up how or why I chose it.  I've been away from the Sim since before the clouds, cows and the Viper were implemented.  I have to relearn not just the game but the hardware that runs it too.   Thanks.

[Steel Jaw]

Suggest you buy 64Gb NOW soas to ensure the sticks match (IE same kit), no guarantee if you  try to add RAM later.

[LucShep]

On 4/7/2023 at 9:07 PM, Transit said:

Does DCS do better with high clock speed or low latency 3D cache?  Multiplayer yes but No VR.  1440p target resolution.  Been away from DCS for a few years.

Considering either the 12900K or an **X3D offering but also wonder if I even need i9/R9 if I won't be using a VR headset.  Tried VR previously but it just wasn't for me..

Upgrade will have 4080, 32GB DDR5, 3 IPS panels and TrackIR.  Not sure what additional relevant information is needed.

Coming from 8700k, 1080ti, single Ultrawide panel.

It makes no sense to buy an i9 12900K at this point, when the i7 13700K is faster (stronger IPC, i.e, more punch clock for clock).

In regards to AMD, there are advantages and some disadvantages.

I'll focus mainly on the newly released AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D as it is the better choice for a gaming system. It performs at the top while using far less power to run. Which, besides the electricity savings, also means it runs cooler, and therefore doesn't require more expensive cooling, like the Intel i7 and i9 rivals do require (and also their Ryzen 9 7900X3D and 7950X3D family members).

While the AMD 7800X3D has lower clocks, and not as strong IPC, it does balance (and fully counter that) with the 3D V-Cache and the single CCD (so no latency problems here).
Many games - including DCS - enjoy the benefits of 3D V-Cache, which is is a packaging technology that stacks additional layers of cache on top of a CPU.
Yes, the downside here is you can't have it with the higher clocks that you see in other concorrent CPUs but, as said, there are more benefits with 3D V-Cache and single CCD. 
Another plus with the 7800X3D, is the fact that AMD wants to support AM5 ahead, like they did before with AM4. Which means that, in the future, you're likely able to purchase the next best CPU from AMD then and, with a bios update, use it on such system, again.  

The only disadvantages that I see with the AMD 7800X3D are:
1) The low availability and high market price ($550+), which is not really same as the initial MSRP rumours (wasn't it supposed to be $450?), simply because it is the most sought.
2) It "only" has 8 cores and 16 threads (8c/16t). It's a gaming processor, not for heavy production (VMs, video encoding, rendering, etc) or a workstation. Meaning, if this PC you're building will also be heavily used for that and your life depends on it, you'll be better with an AMD 7950X3D (16c/32t) or Intel i7 13700K (16c/24t).

So, is the new AMD 7800X3D the best choice right now for a top gaming system? Yes, it is. But it is not the "end all, be all", like most initially painted these AMD X3D chips...

You see, there's also this elephant in the room called Intel i5 13600KF...
The i5 13600KF (14c/20t) at $280, paired with a MSI Z790 Tomahawk DDR5 motherboard ($250) and a RAM kit of 64GB (2x 32) DDR5 6400 CL32 ($300) is a modern combo that packs a really heavy punch for 99% of simmers, for not a whole lot of money. Not inexpensive, but far less expensive to build. 
I seriously doubt you can tell a difference (for DCS or MSFS) with this combo against a vastly more expensive i9 13900K fancy setup. Plus, it can also be overclocked...
Yes, Intel 13th gen is a dead platform (no continuation, as usual), which is, no doubt, a downside. But, let's imagine for a minute that your budget is restricted and set, and getting that i5 13600KF combo would allow you to get a better graphics card, say, an RTX4080, whereas getting a higher end system with AMD 7800X3D or 7950X3D (or Intel i7 13700K, or i9 13900K) wouldn't let you go that far, because that would blow your budget... then I would certainly pick the former without any regrets.


  

Edited April 9, 2023 by LucShep

[Kageseigi]

1 hour ago, LucShep said:

The i5 13600KF (14c/20t) at $280, paired with a MSI Z790 Tomahawk DDR5 motherboard ($250) and a RAM kit of 64GB (2x 32) DDR5 6400 CL32 ($300) is a modern combo that packs a really heavy punch for 99% of simmers, for not a whole lot of money.

Interesting. Thank you for that. Curious... if one were to consider only DCS, how would the i5 13600KF compare to the 5800X3D? I suppose a new build based on the latter would be cheaper also.

And another question. Assuming only DCS at 1080 and 2D, if I were to build around an RX 6800 GPU, which would be the best CPU choice? That is... so neither would really limit the other. If the 6800 can max out 1080 with no issue, then assume the limiting resolution. Thanks!

[LucShep]

On 4/8/2023 at 5:15 AM, Kageseigi said:

Interesting. Thank you for that. Curious... if one were to consider only DCS, how would the i5 13600KF compare to the 5800X3D? I suppose a new build based on the latter would be cheaper also.

 

The i5 13600KF (if Intel) and 5800X3D (if AMD) are still, IMO, the best solutions for a DCS system that is made on a somewhat limited budget.
They're very comparable, but specifically with DCS there should be a performance benefit with the 5800X3D due to the 3D V-Cache (also single CCD, like the new 7800X3D), though I suspect an overclocked i5 13600KF overcomes any disadvantage... 

Note that the AMD 5800X3D and its AM4 motherboards (B550, X570) uses DDR4 memory. 
The i5 13600KF also has DDR4 versions of the same suggested Z790 motherboards (MSI Z790 Tomahawk DDR4, for example).

One benefit here would be for those coming from older systems that use DDR4 - you can reuse that memory then (even more convenient if you already were using a 64GB kit).
With that said, I still think DDR5 is the future, and investing in older dead end solutions/platforms should not be a longer term plan.
 

On 4/8/2023 at 5:15 AM, Kageseigi said:

And another question. Assuming only DCS at 1080 and 2D, if I were to build around an RX 6800 GPU, which would be the best CPU choice? That is... so neither would really limit the other. If the 6800 can max out 1080 with no issue, then assume the limiting resolution. Thanks!

AMD RX6800 ("non-XT") should be great for a 1080P monitor, and quite good for 1440P (though how good I'm not sure).
In this case, for that GPU, then a CPU like AMD Ryzen 7 5700X (B550 - DDR4) or Intel 13400F (B760 - DDR4 or DDR5) would be great solutions, also less expensive, with respective affordable motherboards and 64GB memory kits, IMO. 

Edited April 9, 2023 by LucShep

[Kageseigi]

3 hours ago, LucShep said:

The i5 13600KF (if Intel) and 5800X3D (if AMD) are still, IMO, the best solutions for a DCS system that is made on a somewhat limited budget.
They're very comparable, but specifically with DCS there should be a performance benefit with the 5800X3D due to the 3D V-Cache (also single CCD, like the new 7800X3D), though I suspect an overclocked i5 13600KF overcomes that disadvantage... 

Note that the AMD 5800X3D and its AM4 motherboards (B550, X570) uses DDR4 memory. 
The i5 13600KF also has DDR4 versions of the same suggested Z790 motherboards (MSI Z790 Tomahawk DDR4, for example).

One benefit here would be for those coming from older systems that use DDR4 - you can reuse that memory then (even more convenient if you already were using a 64GB kit).
With that said, I still think DDR5 is the future, and investing in older dead end solutions/platforms should not be a longer term plan.
 

AMD RX6800 ("non-XT") should be great for a 1080P monitor, but for 1440P I'm not so sure.
In this case, for that GPU, then a CPU like AMD Ryzen 7 5700X (B550 - DDR4) or Intel 13400F (B760 - DDR4 or DDR5) would be great solutions, also less expensive, with respective affordable motherboards and 64GB memory kits, IMO. 

 

Sounds great! Thank you so much! Yeah, I have a 50-inch 1080p tv. Only 60 Hz, but I'd prefer size over speed... at least for flying. Plus, I already have it, so no need to spend more.

And I was amazed by the low power use of the non-XT 6800 while still giving great performance (especially compared to my 580). I have an APC 1350v UPS, so I'm hoping to be able to use it with a new system.

And yes, I'm definitely going for 64GB RAM!

[BitMaster]

vor 21 Stunden schrieb Transit:

@BitMaster Price is the sole reason for considering 12th gen over 13, in this case it's a $225 difference for about 10% performance uptick.  The 32GB (roughly $175) would be a start with the ability to add more later.  I can put that $350-400 savings towards a better GPU. Can you please further explain your recommendation on the AMD processor?  The main question was whether DCS prefers high clock speed vs 3D V-cache.  I, too, can recommend anything to anyone without offering up how or why I chose it.  I've been away from the Sim since before the clouds, cows and the Viper were implemented.  I have to relearn not just the game but the hardware that runs it too.   Thanks.

I don't run any X3D chip myself so I can not give you honest first hand experience but my concerns are not related to that, they are foremost energy, wattage and the heat it produces, causing a much bigger and more expensive cooling solution that no matter what will always be louder than the same one on a lower wattage CPU. There is the cost, from the cooling solution as a one time cost to a repeating kW/h cost for it's high power draw, the noise pollution if you choose a small cooling solution, and after all that... it might just get as fast as this X3D chip that uses much less power, so much less it can get by with a decent Air Cooler like Noctua-DH15 or beQuiet DarkRock4-Pro or a 240er AIO whereas an Aircooler is almost a no-go for Intel if you want gaming rig, at least take a 240er AIO ( and accept high revving fans ) or 280/360. That's the "*" with the current Intel chips, they just run  as hot as AMD used to do 10 years ago and you have to take care of that, and pay for it too.

My 2nd point is that I am really, really happy with my AMD 5900X, much more than with any of the dozen Intel chips I had during the last 15 years. It doesn't mean anything X3D but I trust AMD that they can deliver again, they did already and I am using it heavily & daily. 

3rd point. I really think that X3D on AM5 is the best option for gamers right now. Open roads for a few years. Intel has no answer to this, they don't want to, they want to sell a new chipset with every other CPU and I dislike that very much. With Socket 1700 you are stuck with what you buy now and Mainboards got WAY MORE expensive with DDR5 and PCIe-v5 since they need more layers on the PCB, more copper, more development time, etc.. so keeping a Mainboard for another round is more of interest than it was before.

 

Anyway, you can't go really wrong with any of those CPU's, they all perform very well and unless you own one of the Top-5 cards it doesn't really matter that much anyway since the GPU is likely you bottleneck and will remain so.  The difference is not foremost in the performance, it's the Socket & TDP/Cooling 

 

[AlpineGTA]

I'm a bit confused about the performance of the 7800X3D. All the review sites seem to agree that it's the best CPU for gaming, but that it performs relatively poorly in multi-thread productivity benchmarks. So given that DCS now supports MT does that not mean that it's single threaded advantage is cancelled out and CPUs such as the i7-13700K or even the i5-13600K might perform better? I'm talking specifically in MT DCS. It's a pity that none of the review sites includes DCS in their gaming benchmarks. It's too niche I suppose.

[LucShep]

1 hour ago, AlpineGTA said:

I'm a bit confused about the performance of the 7800X3D. All the review sites seem to agree that it's the best CPU for gaming, but that it performs relatively poorly in multi-thread productivity benchmarks. So given that DCS now supports MT does that not mean that it's single threaded advantage is cancelled out and CPUs such as the i7-13700K or even the i5-13600K might perform better? I'm talking specifically in MT DCS. It's a pity that none of the review sites includes DCS in their gaming benchmarks. It's too niche I suppose.

Right now DCS is at its initial stage of MT implementation. It is expected to be using more cores along the way, as its development continues. But I doubt it'll fully tax 8 cores and 16 threads of a CPU in the foreseable future, if ever.

And yes, it's a pity that there's noone in the mainstream PC tech community (reviewers, etc) who cares about DCS. It may look to them as an oddball niche product but many of its users are PC tech enthusiasts (sometimes by necessity! LOL).  

Edited April 9, 2023 by LucShep

[D3Magic]

Also thinking about 7800X3D, but heard that AMD mother boards had USB compatibility issue with VR headset, such as G2.

Does this compatibility issue exist on AM5 platform?

[Transit]

Thank you to each one of you for contributing!   I guess I could have mentioned that this is purely a gaming PC.  No content creation or work station tasks.  The budget is quite flexible, loose even, however I've learned some costly mistakes from my first ever build from 5 years ago.  I just want to spend much wiser this time around.  I'm leaning a bit closer now to the 7800X3D, not exactly because of utility costs or the cooler temperatures, but for the longer AM5 support and.. Well ..  I've always only had Intel PCs so perhaps I'll give AMD a try.  Still...,  I'm going to wait for some DCS comparisons or benchmarks to land on YT.  Gotta happen sometime, right?  Oh, and thanks for the bit about 64GB DDR5 all at once.  You both know who ya are

 

Edited April 9, 2023 by Transit

[EightyDuce]

8 hours ago, D3Magic said:

Also thinking about 7800X3D, but heard that AMD mother boards had USB compatibility issue with VR headset, such as G2.

Does this compatibility issue exist on AM5 platform?

I'm running a G2 on AM5 without issues. 

 

Sample size of 1 though, so take that for what it is haha. 

Edited April 9, 2023 by EightyDuce

[D3Magic]

1 hour ago, EightyDuce said:

I'm running a G2 on AM5 without issues. 

 

Sample size of 1 though, so take that for what it is haha. 

 

Thank you! Now it's time to decide a mobo for 7800X3D...

[derneuemann]

Am 7.4.2023 um 22:20 schrieb BitMaster:

Why would you choose a 12th gen Intel over a 13th gen if you buy new ? 

The newer one has a clear IPC advantage if you even consider Intel at all, which leads us to your main question.

I would definitely go AMD 7000X3D and I would NOT go 32GB but 64GB. 32GB doesn't cut it anymore and you don't even need VR or 4K to blow past the 32GB barrier.

 

13000 vs 12000 IPC +4% not realy clear... But the up to 6GHz vs up to 5.3GHz.

[BitMaster]

Oh yes, it should say "per core" and not IPC. 

[Greekbull]

On 4/8/2023 at 10:18 PM, D3Magic said:

Also thinking about 7800X3D, but heard that AMD mother boards had USB compatibility issue with VR headset, such as G2.

Does this compatibility issue exist on AM5 platform?

That was a temporary issue with Zen 3, I had that issue with my X570 mobo when it first came out with the 5950X and that was patched later...although I ran the G2 at the time with a USB card.  With Zen 4 there is no issues.  I have my Varjo Aero now powered from my X670 mobo and it's great.  With the 7950X3D(I use Process Lasso) to limit it to the V Cache CCD), and the 4090 I'm flying in large multiplayer sessions in Syria etc with nearly maxed out settings and 90fps most of the time. Couldn't be happier!

[jinjiji]

Personally I always only for Intel   

Edited May 5, 2023 by jinjiji

[jinjiji]

2 часа назад, jinjiji сказал:

Personally I always only for Intel, somehow I do not trust them yes, all my life I made computers on Intel, never had any problems, and energy efficiency they have much better, which in today's conditions will save a considerable amount of money in daily use. Here, look here https://rankquality.com/en/intel-core-i9-12900k/ there are detailed specifications that AMD will not soon come to Intel in the same power efficiency  

 

Isnt it? 

[Thinder]

I'm ALL AMD and I don't regret my choice now that I know the source of the issues I encountered.

The loss of performance can largely put into Microsoft tally, they mess AMD drivers and in their updates there are settings that prevents the GPU to boost, I lost <> 10% performance after a Windows 11 Update in which you can find settings for the MPO (Multiplace Overlay) causing this to happen.

Curiously, the cure is to be find in an app originally designed for Intel GPUs, here: Disabling MPO (Multiplace Overlay) 

There still is about 2.5% missing in 3DMark Pro scores, at 4k 2X MSAA and the card doesn't boost on its own and it wouldn't O.C and crash with mention "Driver Time out" before I used this app.

The CPU has to be O.Ced, which is not an issue since I have very good cooling, the GPU stays cool at temperatures below 80°C and consistently runs those tests with scores above 19.300, in DCS, performances are good despite high settings, it also is undervolted.

62/79 °C at 60FPS, 2823MHz GPU Core, 2662MHz VRAM in DCS MT VR, I got what I paid for but obviously, nobody will say that those cards doesn't explode or burst into flame and cost £450 less than the cheapest 4090 at the time of purchase.

Thanks to the geezers who created this app to cure Intel GPU flickering and blackscreens, now I still have to figure where this damned O.S is still holding this card...

Oh, I nearly forgot, I still have to find an Intel CPU as efficient as the 5600X...

Edited May 6, 2023 by Thinder