Is Auto delivery from level flight the most accurate method for dumb bombs now?

[oldcrusty]

I've just finished a few test runs, releasing from level, dive and loft. So far level wins .  Previously the loft method was the winner . Fine with me, level it is from now on!  Actually, one of my diving releases was spot on (490kts, 20deg dive, head wind 6kts)... fluke? who knows.

Here are 2 level drops from different altitudes and tgt. elevations:

 

[MARLAN_]

If it matters, real F18 pilots always use CCRP even for dive bombing as it allows for more accurate and consistent results.

[Lekaa]

 

not that i'm lazy but ever tried CPL while doing CCRP? I haven't tried it to the fully, I clicked on CPL and it aligned me but was 1 degree off, don't know why if it's calculating the wind or something

[oldcrusty]

31 minutes ago, Lekaa said:

 

not that i'm lazy but ever tried CPL while doing CCRP? I haven't tried it to the fully, I clicked on CPL and it aligned me but was 1 degree off, don't know why if it's calculating the wind or something

Not yet.  When I have my test pilot hat on I'm brave enough to try anything to get results.  During 'real DCS' combat ops, I'm jittery enough to spend more the few secs flying in a steady straight line.  No autopilot of any kind for me...

Edited April 15, 2023 by oldcrusty

[Lekaa]

38 minutes ago, oldcrusty said:

Not yet.  When I have my test pilot hat on I'm brave enough to try anything to get results.  During 'real DCS' combat ops, I'm jittery enough to spend more the few secs flying in a steady straight line.  No autopilot of any kind for me...

 

same but since it's good to find bugs

[amalahama]

11 hours ago, Lekaa said:

 

not that i'm lazy but ever tried CPL while doing CCRP? I haven't tried it to the fully, I clicked on CPL and it aligned me but was 1 degree off, don't know why if it's calculating the wind or something

Well theoretically Auto + CPL = FD (flight director) delivery mode isn't it

[Temetre]

Yeah, I think CPL is also for autopilot CCRP. People said it was bugged in the past.

Its brillant tho, dont need guided weapons if you got guided plane :^)

Edited April 16, 2023 by Temetre

[LastRifleRound]

Well everything else is bugged, so maybe. There are 3 auto delivery bugs reported in the bugs section right now

[oldcrusty]

In the latest OB, level release still rules, anything else is way off.  

[Mikaa]

Something is also still bugged about the ASL with crosswinds. Been marked “investigating” for a looooong time now, with no updates. So if you use little/no wind scenarios, then AUTO is your best bet for accuracy. 

[oldcrusty]

3 hours ago, Mikaa said:

Something is also still bugged about the ASL with crosswinds. Been marked “investigating” for a looooong time now, with no updates. So if you use little/no wind scenarios, then AUTO is your best bet for accuracy. 

You know what... after you brought it up, I went and tested it. Hmm, it looked a lot better now, as compared to an identical test I'd done over 2 years ago (damn, time flies!).  The winds of course have to be set within certain limits... We can't use dumb bombs in 80 kt. crosswind component, well even smart bombs might have an issue... I tried it anyways, lol  - no dice!

OK, in my 'normal' test I had a 40 kt wind from my left 90. (same wind @1600ft, 6000ft and above) Target elevation was 4400ft.  I released from a level flight at 9000ft, just below 500kts.  I didn't worry about heading caret vs. tgt diamond on heading tape... seemed OK to me (I remember some folks reporting issues with that part in the past).  Simply lined up VV on the ASL without making any major corrections as I approached release point.  Spot on!

As long as I released from level flight, nailed it every time. Some people might say that was a bit too optimistic?  Not me, lol.  I was happy.  Now, releasing from a 30 deg. dive was always short.

[Mikaa]

5 hours ago, oldcrusty said:

You know what... after you brought it up, I went and tested it. Hmm, it looked a lot better now, as compared to an identical test I'd done over 2 years ago (damn, time flies!).  The winds of course have to be set within certain limits... We can't use dumb bombs in 80 kt. crosswind component, well even smart bombs might have an issue... I tried it anyways, lol  - no dice!

OK, in my 'normal' test I had a 40 kt wind from my left 90. (same wind @1600ft, 6000ft and above) Target elevation was 4400ft.  I released from a level flight at 9000ft, just below 500kts.  I didn't worry about heading caret vs. tgt diamond on heading tape... seemed OK to me (I remember some folks reporting issues with that part in the past).  Simply lined up VV on the ASL without making any major corrections as I approached release point.  Spot on!

As long as I released from level flight, nailed it every time. Some people might say that was a bit too optimistic?  Not me, lol.  I was happy.  Now, releasing from a 30 deg. dive was always short.

Interesting! Sounds like I may have to revisit that. Did you try it with retarded munitions or slicks? I remember the wandering ASL being significantly exacerbated with the longer TOF of snake-eyes/ballutes. 

[oldcrusty]

8 hours ago, Mikaa said:

Interesting! Sounds like I may have to revisit that. Did you try it with retarded munitions or slicks? I remember the wandering ASL being significantly exacerbated with the longer TOF of snake-eyes/ballutes. 

No, not yet... I wouldn't expect the same results though. With the same wind condition, the attack direction would 'probably' be a major factor, along with release altitude.  Hopefully I'll have some time to run a test today.

[oldcrusty]

OK, I had enough time for one test run, before my Reverb G2's cable started showing signs of wear and tear... well, it's the original one.

Rockeyes x 4, 40kt wind.  In the first attack, almost perfect tailwind, second run at 90 deg.  Perfect hits both times.  I left the burst ht at 300 (whether it matters or not).

Well, the thread is drifting off a bit but ED doesn't pay too much attention anyway, 

[Mikaa]

10 hours ago, oldcrusty said:

OK, I had enough time for one test run, before my Reverb G2's cable started showing signs of wear and tear... well, it's the original one.

Rockeyes x 4, 40kt wind.  In the first attack, almost perfect tailwind, second run at 90 deg.  Perfect hits both times.  I left the burst ht at 300 (whether it matters or not).

Well, the thread is drifting off a bit but ED doesn't pay too much attention anyway, 

Woo, looks like they fixed the ASL bug. Can’t wait to hop back in and do some low level carpet bombing! Thanks for testing this out. 

[oldcrusty]

30 minutes ago, BuzzU said:

I'm just coming back to DCS/Hornet. Explain to an old man.

If you're using CCRP why use dumb bombs? It's not like we have to pay for more expensive bombs in DCS. Why not use more capable bombs?

Although the comment that real pilots use CCRP for dumb bombs shocked me. I thought it was accepted that CCIP was the most accurate way to deliver dumb bombs? Why is that taught in DCS?

I think you'd be better off getting an explanation from a youngster...  I'm probably not that far behind you but who's counting .

Short explanation:  Hornet weapon systems, JHMCS, release calculations and 'few' other things are still partially borked up...  Sure, there are always ways to adjust to the bugs and develop your own ways to 'WIN'.  From that angle, hackers are the most powerful weapon... Well, we are both too old to start on that path, lol...   or are we? (jk)

[oldcrusty]

4 hours ago, Mikaa said:

Woo, looks like they fixed the ASL bug. Can’t wait to hop back in and do some low level carpet bombing! Thanks for testing this out. 

It certainly acts different, well in my opinion. I haven't tested high drag setup yet, perhaps today. This scenario should definitely require different approach.

[oldcrusty]

Now I see what the issue was when it was reported long time ago... the ASL doesn't show the lateral offset required 'at release point' and it gradually and constantly creeps toward the target as it gets closer. Currently, we have to anticipate and lead the ASL just before release. It creeps rapidly at very close range. So... it's pretty much 'Kentucky windage', ;).

This become very obvious when dropping high drag bombs. When aligned with the wind, no problem.  At 90 deg., stay ahead of the game.  Yea, I still used 40 kt wind, I guess I was too lazy to change it.  So for now, it's probably better to figure out an ingress route and attack direction more aligned with wind. Another thing... I released at only around 450 kts., since I wasn't sure if DCS factors in the limits for any kind of HD bombs or not.

 

[amalahama]

6 hours ago, oldcrusty said:

Now I see what the issue was when it was reported long time ago... the ASL doesn't show the lateral offset required 'at release point' and it gradually and constantly creeps toward the target as it gets closer. Currently, we have to anticipate and lead the ASL just before release. It creeps rapidly at very close range. So... it's pretty much 'Kentucky windage', ;).

This become very obvious when dropping high drag bombs. When aligned with the wind, no problem.  At 90 deg., stay ahead of the game.  Yea, I still used 40 kt wind, I guess I was too lazy to change it.  So for now, it's probably better to figure out an ingress route and attack direction more aligned with wind. Another thing... I released at only around 450 kts., since I wasn't sure if DCS factors in the limits for any kind of HD bombs or not.

 

I ond't understand your point? You followed the ASL, the bomb dropped at the exact moment, you scored the hit. Where is the issue?

[oldcrusty]

4 hours ago, amalahama said:

I ond't understand your point? You followed the ASL, the bomb dropped at the exact moment, you scored the hit. Where is the issue?

I don't understand myself sometimes either... I just imagined some basic trig.  What if the mission computer gave you a crab angle at some point after initial that would put you on a steady path (course) that would guide you toward the release point (already calculated roughly with ASL glued to it) for your a/s. Now, hell if I know how this worked in the ol' Hornet  .

One thing for sure, RW or game.  In very rough weather, this type of weapon and attack direction would be iffy at best.

[BuzzU]

Anything wrong with using CCIP for dumb bombs? It's been working for a long time.

[Jetguy06]

On 5/22/2023 at 8:18 AM, oldcrusty said:

I think you'd be better off getting an explanation from a youngster...  I'm probably not that far behind you but who's counting .

Short explanation:  Hornet weapon systems, JHMCS, release calculations and 'few' other things are still partially borked up...  Sure, there are always ways to adjust to the bugs and develop your own ways to 'WIN'.  From that angle, hackers are the most powerful weapon... Well, we are both too old to start on that path, lol...   or are we? (jk)

I've read Hornets Over Kuwait by Jay Stout several times, and from what I remember, they rarely carried guided ordnance, and almost always bombed in Auto mode with the dumb bombs, whether from blind radar designations, radar designations backed up by visual contact, or pre-planned coordinates. It seems to me like Auto would be used even with dumb bombs to try and stay out of the WEZ of enemy AAA and SHORADS. With CCIP you generally have to get pretty low to get the pipper on target.

 

Why do it this way in DCS? I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I do it to replicate RW procedures and techniques, like what they did in the book. But if I'm doing a more modern scenario I'll usually use guided ordnance.

[BuzzU]

11 minutes ago, Jetguy06 said:

I've read Hornets Over Kuwait by Jay Stout several times, and from what I remember, they rarely carried guided ordnance, and almost always bombed in Auto mode with the dumb bombs, whether from blind radar designations, radar designations backed up by visual contact, or pre-planned coordinates. It seems to me like Auto would be used even with dumb bombs to try and stay out of the WEZ of enemy AAA and SHORADS. With CCIP you generally have to get pretty low to get the pipper on target.

 

Why do it this way in DCS? I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I do it to replicate RW procedures and techniques, like what they did in the book. But if I'm doing a more modern scenario I'll usually use guided ordnance.

What's the reason for for using dumb bombs in CCRP? Do they work better than guided bombs?

[Jetguy06]

1 hour ago, BuzzU said:

What's the reason for for using dumb bombs in CCRP? Do they work better than guided bombs?

In the book, I can't remember the exact reason they used dumb bombs over smart. Probably due to a lack of laser designator, if I had to guess. Their Nitehawk pods weren't very good. But Auto almost certainly kept them away from air defenses for the most part. There were some pretty hair-raising stories about being shot at when they did Auto dive bomb runs, but they mostly tended to do level or shallow-dive runs with Auto. I'll have to go back and read it again.

[BuzzU]

Ok, thanks.