reported Gunner Issues - Accuracy and engagement problems

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

Can you post me a track of the top and belly guns shredding up an attacker?  Include the miz too so I can confirm.

Thanks in advance.

What threat setting are you saying fixes the top gunner?

[NineLine]

2 minutes ago, [16AGR] CptTrips said:

Can you post me a track of the top and belly guns shredding up an attacker?  Include the miz too so I can confirm.

Thanks in advance.

I already supplied you with a mission. You can use that to test other aspects of bomber gunners, or better yet change the 190 to flyable and see how long you can sit in the prime firing zone. 

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

I just tried you mission.  I moved the FW up closer so the tail gun couldn't shoot and he just passes over the top of the bombers. (See attached.)

I saw no top gun shoot at all.  Eventually the chin gun shot after I had passed, which isn't surprising  since I graded the chin gun as "fine".

Can you provide a miz and track of the top and belly guns operating properly?

 

NOPEmiz.miz

Edited June 28, 2023 by [16AGR] CptTrips

[NineLine]

3 minutes ago, [16AGR] CptTrips said:

I just tried you mission.  I moved the FW up closer so the tail gun couldn't shoot and he just passes over the top of the bombers. (See attached.)

I saw no top gun shoot at all.  Eventually the chin gun shot after I had passed, which isn't surprising  since I graded the chin gun as "fine".

Can you provide a miz and track of the top and belly guns operating properly?

 

NOPEmiz.miz 7.76 kB · 0 downloads

 

I see plenty of shots, but what I see is plenty of misses, I am not sure why you are seeing no shots but I have reported that Ace bombers need more target practice against a non-maneuvering target. 

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

 

What I'm asking is, are you seeing the top and belly gunners shooting properly?  Show me your own test mission if mine are "incorrect".

Can you demonstrate the top and belly guns operating properly with track and miz?

?

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by [16AGR] CptTrips

[NineLine]

On 5/4/2023 at 4:26 PM, J13 Serenity said:

server-20230504-131039.trkHello again
We flew a mission with a lot of Ju 88 bombers bombing Paris (Server crashed)
I've instructed my friends to get on bombers tails and see if the gunners fire
There are some interesting things to note:
If you watch the track and follow a player with a name "Yura", you might see, that he flew right inside the bomber formation, but not a single Ju88 gunner opened fire...
At the same time, another player, with the name "Gena" did the same, and got heavily damaged by the Ju 88 gunners
Only 1 out of about 18 Ju 88 in the formation fired at him at any given point in time.
Gunners (Veterans) only fired a very short bursts
Also, that "Gena" did not crash into the bomber, but glided back to the airport...

Ju 88 settings in the editor were as follows:
1. Big formation, combat box
2. role - ground attack
3. Mission - carpet bombing (SC50) (in this particular mission no carpet bombing, just flight along the waypoints)
4. ROE - Designated target only (If set to Engage ALL - at the moment the first flak opens fire, Ju 88 break formation, crash into each other, dive etc...)
5. Skill level - veteran
6. Reaction to threat - passive defence
 

Try changing the Reaction to threat to this:

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

11 minutes ago, NineLine said:

I see plenty of shots

Did you check the debrief to see which guns were shooting?

 

I don't know why this is harder than it should be.

If you can just post a "correct" mission with the settings that make the top and belly gunners operate properly.

We can then use that to fix our own missions.

That would be the easiest wouldn't it rather than arguing?

 

Can anyone?

[NineLine]

I already posted a mission where the top gunners fire.

2023-06-28 13-13-42.mkv

This is in the current open Beta, the top gunners are clearly firing, this is from the same mission I sent above. 

Are you running any mods, have you done a full repair recently?

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

I'll try it.  The one I modified from your tail example didn't even though it flew right over the top of the gunner. (See NopeMiz.miz attached above.)

(Chin gunner did shoot. As expected.)

Edited June 28, 2023 by [16AGR] CptTrips

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

I see your video.  It's not what I'm seeing.  You aren't running any kind of internal build are you?

 

Here is what I see from your tail gun mission except moved the FW up to be outside of the tail gun.

All briefing says it that chin gun eventually shot. (See track and miz below.)  Is top gun shooting?

 

If you give me the exact miz you made the film from I'll try it specifically.

 

NOPE.miz NOPE.trk

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

Also, I couldn't see from the vid.

How many hits did those top guns get?

Or I can check if you post the exact miz.  I don't want to introduce an accidental error editing anything.

 

 

 

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

Did my post disappear?  Weird.

I was asking if in your opinion if you felt the behavior RafaPilot (OP) was reporting was correct and intended behavior?

Because to me it looks very similar to the issue with the B-17 I reported. 

You don't think they are related?

 

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by [16AGR] CptTrips

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

I ran the modified version of your tail miz again to make sure I'm not crazy and it's not a 1:5 kinda thing.  Briefing says no top gun shot.  Worse.  This time even the chin gun didn't shoot.  We're going backwards. lol.

BTW, the only mod I have is SRS.

dcs.log debrief.log

[NineLine]

As I stated, the video is from the current Open Beta. I have already reported that the gunner's accuracy seems off from what it was tuned to a while back, especially at Ace levels. 

I have no idea why the gunners wouldn't be firing for you but are for me. That seems super strange. 

Can you try running a full repair?

[NineLine]

On 4/25/2023 at 12:29 PM, RafaPolit said:

I flew in formation with three A-20s for minutes and didn’t get shot once.  If tracers are not showing, they have poorer aim than I do.

I have a report already about their poor aim, but we are mixing themes here, are you not seeing them shoot or are you not seeing them hit when they are shooting.

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

 

I certainly can.

 

Also, will you please attach the exact miz of your film?  It's was modified from the tail miz right?  

I'm not saying you're lying.  I'm saying there might be some tiny difference that is the clue.  

I also had one vers of my miz where the top gun suddenly shot.  If we can compare two that work with some that don't maybe we can see the underlying pattern.

Accuracy is obviously sadly off. Even on ACE.  On that we both agree.  But accuracy doesn't matter until they first at least shoot.  It seems to me the calculation of lead is the problem which is why the tail and chin gun are better.  Less lead to calc.

 

Also, I'm not trying to set you off, but a lot of info has been flying back and forth.

Is it a correct statement when you ran my original top and belly gun missions (yeah I know you don't like them), is it a true statement that you did not see the top and belly guns shoot in that example?  If THOSE two missions shot for you and not for me, then something REALLY weird is going on.

Off to repair.  I'm going to leave SRS installed for now.

 

Hmmmm.  One other data point.  I think my mission_scripting.lua is modified to allow file system as I am writing some persistence stuff.  I'm assuming that can't be it.

 

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

Re-read his posts.  There are more than one.

 

On 4/25/2023 at 2:29 PM, RafaPolit said:

I flew in formation with three A-20s for minutes and didn’t get shot once.  If tracers are not showing, they have poorer aim than I do.

 

On 5/3/2023 at 9:36 AM, RafaPolit said:

In this case, they are not engaging AT ALL!

 

[NineLine]

A-20G Test.mizA-20G.trk

Engaging and hitting. Latest Open Beta. 

Seems inconsistent though, I have added to my other report to have the AI guy look at it. 

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

10 minutes ago, NineLine said:

are you not seeing them shoot or are you not seeing them hit when they are shooting.

 

Yes.

 

Here is what I saw.

Tail gunner:  Adequate. Pretty sad for ACE, but you know that already.

Chin gun: same.

Side: Shoots, but couldn't hit water if you threw him out of a boat.  AS you now see.

Belly gun.  I've never seen shoot. You?

 

Top: Out of 50 various runs I saw him shoot once somewhere in the general direction.  All the other times no shoot.

 

 

So how is the best way I can demonstrate them not shooting on my machine for you? 

Apparently we are getting different results.  Again, did they shoot for you on my original top and belly gun miz?  I'm trying to find which one work the same for both of us.  So lets say my mission suck, but there is no rational reason they should shoot in those too miz regardless.

 

I can get some vid recording software if thats best.  I attached a trk earlier I assume you could play and see them not shoot.

 

I'll try your a20 miz real quick before repair and then again after.

 

[Hog_driver]

All right, as a guy who's interested in "bombing the Reich" stuff, etc., I tested the TestBuffGunners mission. Then I performed a slow repair and tested the mission again. I was quickly shot down by tail gunners (3 out of 4 were firing). Then I tried a more careful approach and the results can be seen in the attached .trk file. Top gunners were tracking my plane but didn't fire. The rest were conserving ammo as well.

As far as mods are concerned, I use TacView, Vaicompro and also found something called "FatMan Bomb Cart" (?).

Hope this helps.

gunners_test.trk

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

2 minutes ago, Hog_driver said:

All right, as a guy who's interested in "bombing the Reich" stuff, etc., I tested the TestBuffGunners mission. Then I performed a slow repair and tested the mission again. I was quickly shot down by tail gunners (3 out of 4 were firing). Then I tried a more careful approach and the results can be seen in the attached .trk file. Top gunners were tracking my plane but didn't fire. The rest were conserving ammo as well.

As far as mods are concerned, I use TacView, Vaicompro and also found something called "FatMan Bomb Cart" (?).

Hope this helps.

 

 

Thanks.

I think we need some more data points besides Nineline.  I don't mean that in a bad way. 

It seems to me, him and I are seeing different behavior somehow.  Getting more data points and comparing the ones that work against the ones that don't might start to reveal the pattern.

<S>

 

 

[Hog_driver]

Yeah, the gunners seem to be underperforming (to put it mildly) and the matter should be looked into.

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

I watched hogs track.

I think I did see the far starboard buff top shoot.

I'm seeing some top gun shots in the debrief.

 

*********************************************************************************

Maybe there are certain angles and position he just won't shoot in and when I was in a stable formation, I just wasn't in that picky targeting zone.  Ans since I stayed there I neve got into the shooting zone.  When I was fiddling with it and moved stuff around, maybe I moved into that targeting cone and that's why that one shot that one time.

That's one reason I design my cruddy missions the way I did.  So that there would not be the chance of him not shooting to avoid friendly fire.

Maybe that's what it is?  The code won't shoot where another buff in formation might be sitting.  Whether or not there is a buff there.

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by [16AGR] CptTrips

[Hog_driver]

I understand that there are some gameplay factors (being immediately shot down isn't much fun), performance issues (too many bullets in the air), but IMHO, the gunners should be way more trigger-happy. Especially the Americans

[[HOUNDS] CptTrips]

 

So Nineline can shoot down my theory (see what I did there?) by telling me he WAS seeing the top and belly guns shooting in the original top and belly miz I posted.

That would be an easy negative proof.

But then I would be really confused.