Switch SD-10 to new scheme API used by AIM-120C

[BigBorner]

Am 12.5.2023 um 12:14 schrieb My_Name_Jeff:

As a new player, I really don't know what missile scheme is, can you explain?

It seems nobody in this thread does really know what the switch would really entail. 

[AeriaGloria]

The new API seems to be about EDs new INS and radar seeker modeling for fox 3s. This would give SD-10 more realistic mid course guidance and a more dynamic seeker model. Downsides would be bugs, but while AMRAAM has had its problems it seems to be getting close to working as intended?

[okopanja]

It would be interesting to know the total feature sets of both API models.

Later likely covers more details in following areas:

- engine modeling (e.g. mono-dual-multi-pulse)

- own RCS and electronic sigunature

- aerodynamic modeling

- behavior of controlling surfaces

- sensor gimbals limits

- sensors

- countermeasure effects

- interaction with other information sources (e.g. DL)

- guidance logic (e.g. loft vs direct)

- positioning method

Second thing would be to map the specific missile to both feature sets and specific features toconfirm if new new one provides distinct benefits.

We know that they both likely have PID controllers.

New API has Kalman filters which probably results in refined PID factors + missile is less sensitive to notch if the target keeps flying the same way (not necessarily on linear trajectory).

 

 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2023 by okopanja

[GGTharos]

On 5/12/2023 at 6:24 AM, Torbernite said:

It's just dual thrust engine like 120 or even sparrows. We don't have dual pulse motor in game for now.

Nor should we, the SD-10 employs dual thrust, not dual pulse.   It is also too fast for a dual thrust motor (at it's weight of 180kg, but it has been a while since I checked the flight profile, things may have changed) IIRC - these will typically peak lower than comparable all-boost motor powered rockets, with the R-27ER being an exception since it's got a lot more rocket than anything else. 

Edited May 16, 2023 by GGTharos

[Exorcet]

I like the idea of being on the same API for the sake of consistency. Even if there are bugs, at least it should mean both missiles are bugged in the same way, and then there is the benefit of being updated going forward as well as the more realistic avionics implementation.

[AeriaGloria]

5 hours ago, okopanja said:

It would be interesting to know the total feature sets of both API models.

Later likely covers more details in following areas:

- engine modeling (e.g. mono-dual-multi-pulse)

- own RCS and electronic sigunature

- aerodynamic modeling

- behavior of controlling surfaces

- sensor gimbals limits

- sensors

- countermeasure effects

- interaction with other information sources (e.g. DL)

- guidance logic (e.g. loft vs direct)

- positioning method

Second thing would be to map the specific missile to both feature sets and specific features toconfirm if new new one provides distinct benefits.

We know that they both likely have PID controllers.

New API has Kalman filters which probably results in refined PID factors + missile is less sensitive to notch if the target keeps flying the same way (not necessarily on linear trajectory).

 

 

 

 

 

Behavior of control surfaces and aerodynamic modeling shouldn’t change, SD-10 has been on the latest aerodynamic API as AIM-120/AIM-7/530D for quite a while. I think maybe 6 months after release

[okopanja]

2 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

Behavior of control surfaces and aerodynamic modeling shouldn’t change, SD-10 has been on the latest aerodynamic API as AIM-120/AIM-7/530D for quite a while. I think maybe 6 months after release

Well I did not suggest that, I just pointed out what this API likely consist of. The original posted asks us if the new API should be applied, so naturally it would be good to know what was implemented so far?

[ShadowFrost]

If I had to guess, its mostly sensor related and how the game itself handles the "new" sensor/api compared to the old. Just look at the differences between the Aim-120C-5 and the SD-10/Aim-54 currently. Aim-120C-5 has predictive guidance for lost targets, and, unknown to us (not shown through datamining), different variables effecting the sensor and the environment itself. The predictive guidance part... probably being the most obvious (if that applies). 

Thats at least as far as I'm aware. 

Edited May 17, 2023 by ShadowFrost

[DSplayer]

On 5/16/2023 at 7:23 AM, okopanja said:

It would be interesting to know the total feature sets of both API models.

Later likely covers more details in following areas:

- engine modeling (e.g. mono-dual-multi-pulse)

- own RCS and electronic sigunature

- aerodynamic modeling

- behavior of controlling surfaces

- sensor gimbals limits

- sensors

- countermeasure effects

- interaction with other information sources (e.g. DL)

- guidance logic (e.g. loft vs direct)

- positioning method

Second thing would be to map the specific missile to both feature sets and specific features toconfirm if new new one provides distinct benefits.

We know that they both likely have PID controllers.

New API has Kalman filters which probably results in refined PID factors + missile is less sensitive to notch if the target keeps flying the same way (not necessarily on linear trajectory).

There is no (perceivable or visible) difference between the aerodynamic and engine modeling for the AIM-120 API and the SD-10 API as the majority of the differences are purely seeker based (and those seeker changes seem to be in the backend).

Technically it would be easy to convert over from the SD-10 to the newer AMRAAM API for personal testing but I am currently unable to at the moment. The last time I attempted to do that, there were some unforeseen abnormalities when using the modified SD-10 but that was months ago.

EDIT: I've actually decided to port it over myself now and it seems to perform pretty well with my 5 mins of testing. I'll post it here so you guys can give it a check. Most of the values should be the same as the normal SD-10 with some variables rearranged so I could manage them a bit easier when comparing with the AIM-120C-5. This zip file should be OVGME ready. It's for your root DCS installation folder.

SD-10 New AIM-120 API May 2023 DSplayer.zip

 

EDIT 2: Ok one of my buddies decided to test this out and it does appear that there is probably something that is required from the JF-17's so that the INS works correctly and I am unable to change anything so it works properly. At the moment it appears to just fly straight after losing lock and doesn't feel like it has an INS. Feel free to test it out more however. 

Edited May 17, 2023 by DSplayer

[DSplayer]

The new patch is out with the PL-12 equipped with the new scheme. Hopefully, it performs a bit better than the SD-10.

[Wyvern]

I made a quick tutorial on how to enable the PL-12 on the JF-17.
 

 

Edited May 18, 2023 by Wyvern

[Terzi]

Hi all, few questions:

Is the PL-12 officially added to JF-17 now?

If yes, why do we need to do it manually?

Is this a mod?

Is it allowed in MP servers?

[Wyvern]

nullNot officially added, but they made a change so people can test the AIM--120C API on the SD-10. It breaks Integity Check, but is allowed on 4YA PvE servers and other servers with IC turned off.

From the changelog:

Edited May 18, 2023 by Wyvern

[Terzi]

Thanks Wyvern. I hope after the tests they add it officially.

[Wyvern]

21 minutes ago, Terzi said:

Thanks Wyvern. I hope after the tests they add it officially.

If anything, they will plobably only put it onto the J-11A, however that is very unlikely, the only reason they have done this here, is so we can test the stuff. JF-17 doesnt carry the PL-12 IRL

[EasternEagle]

4 minutes ago, Wyvern said:

If anything, they will plobably only put it onto the J-11A, however that is very unlikely, the only reason they have done this here, is so we can test the stuff. JF-17 doesnt carry the PL-12 IRL

Man I wish the J11a had PL-12's in game, I own quite a few full fid modules but sometimes I just want it to be simple, it would be nice to a more effective BVR fighter in the J11A

[Wyvern]

19 minutes ago, EasternEagle said:

Man I wish the J11a had PL-12's in game, I own quite a few full fid modules but sometimes I just want it to be simple, it would be nice to a more effective BVR fighter in the J11A

well, the J-11A does carry the PL-12 IRL from what I have seen

 

[EasternEagle]

32 minutes ago, Wyvern said:

well, the J-11A does carry the PL-12 IRL from what I have seen

 

Was talking to someone they said they found photos with the J11A carrying PL-12's I dont have them though ill reach out and see.

[Wyvern]

@uboats
Is the PL-12 supposed to show up as Unknown in the SMS page?
It can be fired but shows up as unknown

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk
 

Jeff_PL-12_Test.trk

Edited May 18, 2023 by Wyvern
added Picture and track

[EasternEagle]

44 minutes ago, Wyvern said:

@uboats
Is the PL-12 supposed to show up as Unknown in the SMS page?
It can be fired but shows up as unknown

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk
 

Jeff_PL-12_Test.trk 126.24 kB · 0 downloads

 

Second this also shows up as UKN for me does fire and track though

[okopanja]

5 hours ago, Wyvern said:

well, the J-11A does carry the PL-12 IRL from what I have seen

 

Works nicely, although missile can not re-lock, but shows up as either 12 or 10 depending on what was mounted.

[uboats]

6 hours ago, Wyvern said:

@uboats
Is the PL-12 supposed to show up as Unknown in the SMS page?
It can be fired but shows up as unknown

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk
 

Jeff_PL-12_Test.trk 126.24 kB · 4 downloads

 

Ahhhhhhh, i forgot to update the cheat check for AA missile in SMS.

fortunately, it not affect the functionality.

3 hours ago, okopanja said:

Works nicely, although missile can not re-lock, but shows up as either 12 or 10 depending on what was mounted.

i remembered that aim120c scheme can relock it or i might be wrong

9 hours ago, Wyvern said:

well, the J-11A does carry the PL-12 IRL from what I have seen

 

i think that j-11a is not the one in game.

10 hours ago, Terzi said:

Hi all, few questions:

Is the PL-12 officially added to JF-17 now?

If yes, why do we need to do it manually?

Is this a mod?

Is it allowed in MP servers?

it's just a testbed for new API with current sd10 untouched.

once pl12 with new api works well and as expected by community. we will considier to use this new API to sd10

[FlankerFan35]

46 minutes ago, uboats said:

once pl12 with new api works well and as expected by community. we will considier to use this new API to sd10

I think SD-10 should just be switched; we know how 120 api works already

[okopanja]

11 minutes ago, FlankerFan35 said:

I think SD-10 should just be switched; we know how 120 api works already

There are parameters... Wait this needs to be tuned...

[DSplayer]

From my buddy's testing, it basically just has the same guidance characteristics as the AIM-120 which means it currently has a worse loft and some other weird performance quirks.