Improved dots for hi resolution

[Amox]

This mods worked perfect before todays patch (now it doesn't pass integrity) Why ED?? at least integrate a solution for users with hi-res that cant spot anything...

 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3330454/ (improved dot rendering)

[SharpeXB]

+1 for the topic although I’m sure such a mod shouldn’t pass the IC

[TPrince]

It should be patched, that when you configure your display settings and choose High Resolution (4K) the Dot config should adjust automatically

I am one of the users affected by this 4K bug.  Its been an issue for a while but not important enough for them to correct.  

Edited May 19, 2023 by TPrince

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, TPrince said:

It should be patched, that when you configure your display settings and choose High Resolution (4K) the Dot config should adjust automatically

If this could be done without being open to cheats or exploits then sure. 
The problem with the dots in 1080p is that they allow excessive visibility distances so just replicating this isn’t a good idea. Eliminating dots altogether for everyone is probably a better solution. 

[TPrince]

That's why I suggested that a patch should be created that will automatically change the Dot settings according to what you select in your Display Settings.  Right now people with setups similar to mine are pretty much screwed.  If you take away from everyone then lets see how many people will continue to join servers like 4ya that have no outside views or similar settings. 

Edited May 19, 2023 by TPrince

[Maverick87Shaka]

to be honest, it's a great thing that this kind of mod doesn't pass IC, otherwise people can have giant dot and pass IC. not good.

For sure there will be some tune to do with the DCS core engine to try to make spotting more "balanced" between different resolution, but it's something to me that has to be implemented in the core, it cannot be delegated to a MOD that player can abuse it!

[Amox]

Well am not asking for a giant dot. Am simply asking to be able to spot and be balanced. Players on lower resolution can spot from cockpit I cant spot anything that's 1 mile away flying.

[TPrince]

This problem was reported in 2017.   What's happening in the last week is because someone created a MOD to correct the issue for people for High Res setups like mine.   It allowed me and others like me to be on a level playing field with everyone else.  Would people have abused it ?  Im sure there are a few that will take any advantage they can.   What I find funny is the people that do not have a Hi Res setup are upset that the playing field was equaled out.    It took a MOD for the Devs to finally correct an issue that was reported in 2017.  This has been in their backlog for 5 years.  5

 

 

[SharpeXB]

34 minutes ago, TPrince said:

This problem was reported in 2017.   What's happening in the last week is because someone created a MOD to correct the issue for people for High Res setups like mine.   It allowed me and others like me to be on a level playing field with everyone else.  Would people have abused it ?  Im sure there are a few that will take any advantage they can.   What I find funny is the people that do not have a Hi Res setup are upset that the playing field was equaled out.    It took a MOD for the Devs to finally correct an issue that was reported in 2017.  This has been in their backlog for 5 years.  5

 

 

There have been past attempts at this that were unsuccessful, particularity the “Model Enlargement” setting from several years ago. It’s not an easy problem to solve nor was this mod an ideal solution. 
PS that topic is from when Model Enlargement was a feature. And players are still complaining. 

Edited May 20, 2023 by SharpeXB

[cw4ogden]

I don't see how this could be exploited.  The problem is some users, depending on hardware and settings, can't see <profanity>.  Others can,  when that difference is exaggerated - it leads to the single biggest lopsided advantage possible, surprise. 

With the mod, everyone can see everyone to some extent.  Why do I care if someone can make the dots huge?  A guy who could see me already, can see me from further away.  Who cares?

It's the opposite of fun, as DCS hobbyists we spend time an inordinate amount of time tweaking, eeking out every last FPS, battling away the shimmering associated with games from the 1990s.  To then be forced to choose between decent graphics, or being relevant to the server, to the fight?

Bad guy sees you at 10 miles, you see him at 5.    That you can be worked around.
Bad guy sees you at 10 miles,  and you never see him, even under the most ideal conditions that's the current status quo.
And for the WWII genre it's utterly game breaking. 

Edited May 20, 2023 by cw4ogden

[SharpeXB]

16 minutes ago, cw4ogden said:

Why do I care if someone can make the dots huge?  A guy who could see me already, can see me from further away.  Who cares?

Obviously you aren’t playing modern BVR. With exaggerated view distances players don’t even need radar. Then can just look at big blobs in the sky and shoot at opponents from 10 miles away. 

19 minutes ago, cw4ogden said:

Bad guy sees you at 10 miles,  and you never see him, even under the most ideal conditions that's the current status quo.

Clearly that need to be fixed. Perhaps the best solution is no dots at all. 
The trouble is that the presence of icons and labels in these games has convinced many players that they’re supposed to easily see aircraft at ludicrous distances. If the game was actually realistic in this regard people would howl. 

[cw4ogden]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Obviously you aren’t playing modern BVR. With exaggerated view distances players don’t even need radar. Then can just look at big blobs in the sky and shoot at opponents from 10 miles away.

Indeed.  My assumption was this was pretty much only used by the warbird folks. 
 

Vanilla spotting is not too far from realistic, in my opinion.  But it’s a realism that could give a bit for gameplay. Or at the least, needs to be enforced equally across all resolutions.

[SharpeXB]

14 minutes ago, cw4ogden said:

Vanilla spotting is not too far from realistic, in my opinion.

I feel like it’s fairly realistic playing in 4K. In fact I think it’s quite good. Yes I can barely see fighters at ranges which I think is a bit excessive but it’s still difficult enough to seem believable. 

[Why485]

3 hours ago, cw4ogden said:

I don't see how this could be exploited.  The problem is some users, depending on hardware and settings, can't see <profanity>.  Others can,  when that difference is exaggerated - it leads to the single biggest lopsided advantage possible, surprise. 

With the mod, everyone can see everyone to some extent.  Why do I care if someone can make the dots huge?  A guy who could see me already, can see me from further away.  Who cares?

It's the opposite of fun, as DCS hobbyists we spend time an inordinate amount of time tweaking, eeking out every last FPS, battling away the shimmering associated with games from the 1990s.  To then be forced to choose between decent graphics, or being relevant to the server, to the fight?

Bad guy sees you at 10 miles, you see him at 5.    That you can be worked around.
Bad guy sees you at 10 miles,  and you never see him, even under the most ideal conditions that's the current status quo.
And for the WWII genre it's utterly game breaking. 

 

FYI, one of the main features of the mod was to put hard limits on dot rendering distance. The vanilla game's dots render any time the 3D model is rendered, which could be upwards of 50 miles depending on the situation. The mod made it so that 10 miles was (roughly) the hard limit at which you could see something if you knew where to look, because the dot was fairly transparent. Around 4-5 mile mark, which data suggests is roughly WVR for modern fighter jet sized targets, the dot becomes fully opaque.

In the vanilla game, somebody running a lower resolution can spot dots 50 miles away and use it to cue their radar. With the mod, even in the best of cases (know where to look, silhouetted against a bright and uniform sky), you won't really see a target further than 10 miles.

Edited May 20, 2023 by Why485

[SharpeXB]

19 hours ago, Why485 said:

Around 4-5 mile mark, which data suggests is roughly WVR for modern fighter jet sized targets, the dot becomes fully opaque.

At this range a dot shouldn’t be needed because the aircraft is rendering larger than a single pixel. I can see WWII fighters easily at 4-5 miles as distinct shapes with wings etc. and wonder why the dot or Model Enlargement were necessary to begin with. Likely the best solution is to go back to before all this started and have no dot at all. I’ve been using 4K since 2016 so admittedly I have no real idea what these “dots” are like. 

[MadKreator]

12 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

At this range a dot shouldn’t be needed because the aircraft is rendering larger than a single pixel. I can see WWII fighters easily at 4-5 miles as distinct shapes with wings etc. and wonder why the dot or Model Enlargement were necessary to begin with. Likely the best solution is to go back to before all this started and have no dot at all. I’ve been using 4K since 2016 so admittedly I have no real idea what these “dots” are like. 

Ive been on 1440 widescreens since I started playing, and I never knew there were dots of any sort for aircraft. I’m assuming its similar to the labels being dot only for ground vehicles? Never  in my life have seen an aircraft until I it starts rendering on my screen within a few miles lol 

[SharpeXB]

27 minutes ago, MadKreator said:

Ive been on 1440 widescreens since I started playing, and I never knew there were dots of any sort for aircraft. I’m assuming its similar to the labels being dot only for ground vehicles? Never  in my life have seen an aircraft until I it starts rendering on my screen within a few miles lol 

You can sorta fake it by reducing your resolution but the effect on an actual 1080 display would be more pronounced. The lower res looks so horrible though I’d rather just die

[MadKreator]

17 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

You can sorta fake it by reducing your resolution but the effect on an actual 1080 display would be more pronounced. The lower res looks so horrible though I’d rather just die

No way i could go back to 1080. Same reason I don’t play vr, cool feeling like you’re in the plane, but I can’t stand the crap graphics lol  I didn’t spend butt loads of money on a gaming pc for games to look like an original xbox the dot in the air… meh… Iv’e never seen one apparently so may as well leave it out completely.  I always have zoom in/out on a hat on my throttle. I’ve always thought that was the way people spotted other aircraft lol That’s how I’ve done it for years.. maybe thats why I’m bad at dogfighting 

Edited May 21, 2023 by MadKreator

[SharpeXB]

2 minutes ago, MadKreator said:

I always have zoom in/out on a hat on my throttle. I’ve always thought that was the way people spotted other aircraft lol That’s how I’ve done it for years

I wonder if the source of the problem is that many DCS players don’t understand this. But the mod seems like it was a good solution, if it can get somehow incorporated into the game. It’s not going to stop people from complaining about visibility though, they were still complaining with Model Enlargement which created 12 pixel sized sprites visible for 100 miles.  

[MadKreator]

6 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I wonder if the source of the problem is that many DCS players don’t understand this. But the mod seems like it was a good solution, if it can get somehow incorporated into the game. It’s not going to stop people from complaining about visibility though, they were still complaining with Model Enlargement which created 12 pixel sized sprites visible for 100 miles.  

I’ll admit I used the dot labels  for ground vehicles for a long time, but after playing MP enough without them,  it forces you to learn what the vehicles look like and and how to pick out what you’re looking for. Now I don’t care to use any labels/ dots at all. Same idea with some friends I fly RC planes with that are learning. I keep telling them, ditch the safe/ trainer mode as soon as possible or you’ll never get better,  always relying on that crutch. You will adapt, you will progress, its amazing what you can train your brain to do when you have no other choice

[Gunfreak]

I use a G2 VR headset, and even though I have far higher resolution than 1080 I still see dots from far away. It's actually quite deceptive. I'm trying to lock on a sparrow thinking the plane is in range(10+nm) but its really 25nm away. So I keep the dot in my hud for what feels like forever until Jester calls out bandit 12 miles and I get a lock shortly after. So yeah if people flying on 4k don't get that. Then that is not right. 

[MadKreator]

24 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

if it can get somehow incorporated into the game.

NineLine said they have an internal solution right now they are tweaking and working out. I’m kind of interested to see what it is.. hopefully you can turn it off too lol I’m not sure I want to see a bunch of random dots flying around on my screen 50 miles away. That’s what radar, link 16 and rwr is for. If you’re an avid a-10 and av8b guy like me, well then you keep flying NOE focus on your target and hope you can fool the enemy, or hope there’s someone doing a good job on CAP

6 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

I use a G2 VR headset, and even though I have far higher resolution than 1080 I still see dots from far away. It's actually quite deceptive. I'm trying to lock on a sparrow thinking the plane is in range(10+nm) but its really 25nm away. So I keep the dot in my hud for what feels like forever until Jester calls out bandit 12 miles and I get a lock shortly after. So yeah if people flying on 4k don't get that. Then that is not right. 

Yup I’ve never seen anything of the sort. I always assumed I was either unlucky or just needed to learn how to find enemy aircraft better. I’ve never used vr for a real A/A mission either. Only for some a-10 single player ground strikes just to mess around, or just for free flight. I may have to try it on A/A just to see these mystical dots

Edited May 21, 2023 by MadKreator

[SharpeXB]

24 minutes ago, MadKreator said:

I’ll admit I used the dot labels  for ground vehicles for a long time, but after playing MP enough without them,  it forces you to learn what the vehicles look like and and how to pick out what you’re looking for. Now I don’t care to use any labels/ dots at all.

Labels in flight sims are a funny thing because they’re a hold over from the days of 4:3 10” screens. The advent of Full HD widescreens made them unnecessary and yet they’re still in the game despite even larger and better displays now being the norm. They convinced generations of players that enemy aircraft are supposed to be easily visible and at great distances. Turning off the labels is the most important step towards making the game a sim. Sure when I was new to these games I didn’t quite get this but realized it rather quickly. 

27 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

I use a G2 VR headset, and even though I have far higher resolution than 1080 I still see dots from far away. It's actually quite deceptive. I'm trying to lock on a sparrow thinking the plane is in range(10+nm) but its really 25nm away. So I keep the dot in my hud for what feels like forever until Jester calls out bandit 12 miles and I get a lock shortly after. So yeah if people flying on 4k don't get that. Then that is not right. 

Do you see dots on missiles in the vanilla game or with the mod?

[Gunfreak]

1 hour ago, SharpeXB said:

Labels in flight sims are a funny thing because they’re a hold over from the days of 4:3 10” screens. The advent of Full HD widescreens made them unnecessary and yet they’re still in the game despite even larger and better displays now being the norm. They convinced generations of players that enemy aircraft are supposed to be easily visible and at great distances. Turning off the labels is the most important step towards making the game a sim. Sure when I was new to these games I didn’t quite get this but realized it rather quickly. 

Do you see dots on missiles in the vanilla game or with the mod?

Don't see missle dots, not air to air or ground to air. If the smoke trail is gone. I don't see them until they're about to hit me in the face.

[SharpeXB]

7 minutes ago, Gunfreak said:

Don't see missle dots, not air to air or ground to air. If the smoke trail is gone. I don't see them until they're about to hit me in the face.

Ok I know an issue with the mod is that it shows dots on missiles. 
In 4K I can sometimes watch an AGM-65 fly all the way to its target. Or see large bombs like a CBU fall.