Pedal TRIM not working propertly

[daemon1808]

With the changes in the fligh model the "old aircraft-like" TRIM is useless, but the new one click-to-trim is not working well

It seems that, instead of anchor the current position of the pedals, what the trim button does is add or subtract a certain amount to the white "ghost" bar. That amount seems to be the delta of the current possition of the pedals from the center.

At this point the Gazelle seems no-flyable if you don't have physical pedals and want to use TRIM options.

Here is the behaviour (sorry for the quality, but I was in a hurry and have to do the test directly using VR)

 

Edit: I had to make and upload my last video in a hurry. Here is much more clear what is happening with the trim after the changes in the Gazelle FM

IN THE APACHE

- Physical rudder: white line (ignore the green one, that is the SCAS)

- Virtual rudder: red cross

 

IN THE GAZELLE

- Physical rudder: red Line

- Virtual Rudder: white line

Thanks in advance

 

Edited June 10, 2023 by daemon1808
Change the video for one much more clear

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

Tried it with central position trimmer as well as fade in/out trimmer modes on both pedal and stick. As I understand it, the bug is actually in the representation of the indicator for the stick. The white indicators are the positions of the sim stick and rudder following a trim. The red indicators are the positions of your physical stick and pedal, which should always be in the centre after recentering the physical stick and pedal. But it is not happening in the case with the stick. The stick's red diamond follows exactly where the white diamond lands after a trim which defeats the purpose of showing where the two are in relation to each other. The other problem (bug?) I find is that a left pedal trim seems to have a compounding jerking effect unlike a right pedal trim. Also, this new FM makes you lose altitude quite easily with a full load esp if you do not have translational lift unlike before. 

(The Apache has the red and white indicator colours in reverse plus the green SCAS indicators.) 

Edited June 9, 2023 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[daemon1808]

43 minutes ago, GrEaSeLiTeNiN said:

Tried it with central position trimmer as well as fade in/out trimmer modes on both pedal and stick. As I understand it, the bug is actually in the representation of the indicator for the stick. The white indicators are the positions of the sim stick and rudder following a trim. The red indicators are the positions of your physical stick and pedal, which should always be in the centre after recentering the physical stick and pedal. But it is not happening in the case with the stick. The stick's red diamond follows exactly where the white diamond lands after a trim which defeats the purpose of showing where the two are in relation to each other. The other problem (bug?) I find is that a left pedal trim seems to have a compounding jerking effect unlike a right pedal trim. Also, this new FM makes you lose altitude quite easily with a full load esp if you do not have translational lift unlike before. 

(The Apache has the red and white indicator colours in reverse plus the green SCAS indicators.) 

 

I have uploaded a new video where it is much more clear what happens with the rudder.

The cyclic stick trim is good. If you click TRIM button, the VIRTUAL stick goes exactly where the PHYSICAL stick is, as intended.

But with the rudder, the VIRTUAL rudder doesn't go where the PHYSICAL rudder is at the moment of pressing TRIM.

[CORMAC ogaruu]

Yeah, can confirm it happens to me as well. It's beyond annoying. Shame. Can't really fly a helo without pedal trim imo. So back to the shadowrealm the Gazelle goes. Again.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

9 hours ago, daemon1808 said:

I have uploaded a new video where it is much more clear what happens with the rudder.

The cyclic stick trim is good. If you click TRIM button, the VIRTUAL stick goes exactly where the PHYSICAL stick is, as intended.

But with the rudder, the VIRTUAL rudder doesn't go where the PHYSICAL rudder is at the moment of pressing TRIM.

I see what you mean after following the Apache's trim indicators more closely. Hope it is fixed by a hotfix as it does spoil the flight experience. Can't imagine why it was released in this state. Did they even test it?

[kaffepanna]

Another thing, After trimming the pedals position is some times also added to the new center position as you press the trim button when having center position trim. So it in effect doubles the input until you return the pedals to center which i believe should be the behavior of insta trim...

Edited June 11, 2023 by kaffepanna

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

6 hours ago, kaffepanna said:

Another thing, After trimming the pedals position is some times also added to the new center position as you press the trim button when having center position trim. So it in effect doubles the input until you return the pedals to center which i believe should be the behavior of insta trim...

 

Pedals central position trimmer issue: What I observed is this. Every pedal delta plus a trim press is always measured from the pedal center and is always added to the left of the last trim position if the pedal is left of center, and likewise, is always added to the right of the last trim position if the pedal is right of center. The problem comes when say, both red and white indicators are on the left, and you reduce your trim delta (rightwards) by an amount that still leaves the red indicator left of center. You think that you will bring the white trim indicator rightwards by that amount but it will actually add that amount leftwards. So for example, if you want to bring your last pedal trim position (where ever it may be) say, rightwards by delta X, you must ensure your pedal position (red indicator) is right of center by delta X before you hit trim. 

Edited June 11, 2023 by GrEaSeLiTeNiN

[daemon1808]

On 6/11/2023 at 8:49 AM, kaffepanna said:

Another thing, After trimming the pedals position is some times also added to the new center position as you press the trim button when having center position trim. So it in effect doubles the input until you return the pedals to center which i believe should be the behavior of insta trim...

 

Yes, I have notice it also. As soon as you trim, the pedals offset is added to the new trimmed center position. This force you to release the rudder a microsecond after pressing the trim and, even that way, the helicopter jumps a little because the violent input done.

[Orbitus]

What a shame. I can hardly get thing thing off the ground, wind or no wind. I they got the effect of angular momentum/conservation of momentum wrong. The transition the moment you take off and get enough lift to hover, it responds as if the rest of the heli weighs 50 lbs. It is trying to conserve angular momentum, but either the buoyancy effect of the GE is too strong and too fast, or the FM did not correctly account for the actual weight of the bubble and fuselage.

What is surprising is that it is equally difficult to take off regardless of the actual weight of the aircraft. It seems just as slow at gaining vertical speed no matter how much weight is under the blades.

I really wanted to like this, but descending and gaining vertical speed in a controlled and sufficient manner, is the hallmark of this heli, which is why it has been so succesful in real life. I am glad I am only on a trial, because I'm not parting with my money until issues are fixed.

Another important bug, just as serious, is that you need to input roll 1 or 2 times before the heli responds. So annoying.

On the other hand, it's a joy to fly once you're off the ground and at a certain speed/altitude, but the bugs are too important to have had released this module.

I read in a few forums that Polychop was slow in making hot-fixes/updates available for the older FM module. Is this correct?

I really don't want to start an argument. These are my observations, and mine alone.

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Orbitus

[Gripen-Whippin]

Hey DEVS , please acknowledge this is not working as intended, it simply can't be. I don't understand how you can ruin something that already worked. I've been having the exact same PROBLEM. I'm so happy I didn't buy this module. I had been trialing in and loving the OLD FM, and was ready to buy it, but then heard about the new changes.  Central Position Trimmer Mode worked flawlessly before, and now it's broken, period. 

Edited August 24, 2023 by Gripen-Whippin

[Ian Boys UK]

Pedal Trim works absolutely fine for me and like all other helos in DCS

[Rongor]

On 6/15/2023 at 8:23 AM, daemon1808 said:

Yes, I have notice it also. As soon as you trim, the pedals offset is added to the new trimmed center position. This force you to release the rudder a microsecond after pressing the trim and, even that way, the helicopter jumps a little because the violent input done.

I am facing this exact issue right now as well.

Seeing this report being not even acknowledged by PC after well over a year is quite sad. Doesn't generate the trust I require to invest in a 70 USD Kiowa by PC anytime soon.

[GrEaSeLiTeNiN]

3 hours ago, Rongor said:

I am facing this exact issue right now as well. Seeing this report being not even acknowledged by PC after well over a year is quite sad. Doesn't generate the trust I require to invest in a 70 USD Kiowa by PC anytime soon.

Bug reporting here does not appear to be effective with PC's lack of presence, even though ED has dedicated this forum just for that. I think they are mostly on discord which is not the best place for bug records and follow-ups. But ED does not seem to have control over that. Aside from the pedal trim issue, the other problem I find is that the CVS and ALV response can be jerky which seems unrealistic. (Kiowa is a good module out of the box IMO. But it is not without some bugs and has had very little to no updates in the last 2 patches. So...  Hopefully PC will have a big update soon.)    

[virgo47]

This is one of the first things I noticed after I had bought the module. I use Pedal Trim Type: Fade In/Fade Out (BTW: a neat option!) and the indicator shows the pedal white indicator in the middle after trim - while cyclic works as expected. Luckily, it's just an indicator issue, so it seems. But it's confusing nonetheless.

[Tusky]

En 15/6/2023 a las 8:23, daemon1808 dijo:

Yes, I have notice it also. As soon as you trim, the pedals offset is added to the new trimmed center position. This force you to release the rudder a microsecond after pressing the trim and, even that way, the helicopter jumps a little because the violent input done.

Any update on this? The CENTRAL POSITION trim issue (the offset is added) is still here...