RAM upgrade importance withe regard to Multi-Threading

[Bucic]

Usually for gaming chasing RAM specs gives the smallest performance gains per unit of money spent. Does that change signifficantly with the advent of MT in DCS?

Right now I have 2 8GB sticks of B-Die verified Corsair Vengeance RGB Pro CMW16GX4M2C3200C14 3200C14 / 8.8ns 2x8GB / SR

A sensible economy upgrade in this case would be to get another pair of 8GB second-hand sticks as closely matched as possible to the ones I already have. In case of some additional MT considerations this might change. Also, matching 2 new sticks to 2 old ones may well be a hit or miss.

My PC specs

Intel Core i3-12100F
16 GB Corsair Vengeance RGB Pro 2x8GB 3200MHz CL16 XMP enabled

https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/PRO-B660M-A-WIFI-DDR4/support

RTX 2070 MSI Ventus 8GB

 

Refeerences

https://benzhaomin.github.io/bdiefinder/

https://techques.net/a-die-vs-b-die-ram/

This video left me baffled. Apparently B-Die memory kits can suck as much as non-B-Die kits 8-|

https://youtu.be/lLcTKCInDYA

 

a video by Actually Hardcore Overclocking

RANT: THE CAS LATENCY TIMING DOESN'T MATTER AS MUCH AS YOU THINK IT DOES - YouTube —

 

Edited July 4, 2023 by Bucic

[skywalker22]

Not so much speed, but in your case, the amout of it. 32GB should be minimum, but I would recommend 64GB (2x32GB DD4, CL16).

And also make sure you create the pagefile on your the fastest disc. I still have it set of 32GB.

About sticks, I would recommend only 2 the same ones in slots 2 and 4.

[LucShep]

If you're choosing a RAM kit of DDR4, definitely go for 64GB total capacity.

What are your PC specs?
The choices for specs of the DDR4 RAM kit, such as speed and latency, will depend on the CPU, if it's Intel (and if it's a "K" model or not) or if it's AMD Ryzen (socket AM4).

Intel "K" processors architecture design for DDR4 are more forgiving in regards to the latency aspect.
The DDR4 kits of 64GB (2x 32GB) "mid-range priced" 3200 CL16 (16-18-18-36) or 3600 CL16 (16-18-18-38 or 16-19-19-39), more so if dual-rank design, are still the best value choice, as they've got good performance and are far less expensive than the "B-die" lower latency kits, and you won't feel much difference, if any at all. For example.

For AMD AM4 Ryzen, and especially for Ryzen 3000 and Ryzen 5000, the DDR4 speed and latency balance is very important due to architecture design, and here you'll want to spend the extra for the lower latency "B-die" DDR4 kits aimed at AM4, such as 64GB (4x 16GB) 3600 CL14 (14-14-14-34) or 3600 CL16 (16-16-16-36). For example.

Edited July 17, 2023 by LucShep

[Bucic]

@LucShepSo G.Skill RipjawsV 3200 CL16 is all I need?

As for 32 Vs 64, I really don't think I need 64 for flying around a single airfield for 2 hours

[BitMaster]

I am confident you will regret purchasing anything but a 64GB kit.

LucShep is spot on imho.

[Bucic]

16 minutes ago, BitMaster said:

I am confident you will regret purchasing anything but a 64GB kit.

LucShep is spot on imho.

Why? Is there something more behind the matter than the capacity itself? Or is it the fact that next year upgrade may (will?) require not only adding another pair of sticks but rather getting an entirely new 2x32GB set and selling the 2x16GB set with a loss?

[Bucic]

I've found two viable options for a 64GB set:

600 PLN ~ 148 USD

G.Skill RipjawsV 64GB (2x32GB) DDR4 3600MHz CL18 (F4-3600C18D-64GVK)
G.Skill Ripjaws V DDR4 64GB 3200MHz CL16 (F43200C16D64GVK) /also 2x32GB

The 4000MHz CL18 variant is 740 PLN ~ 182 USD already...

 

[LucShep]

2 hours ago, Bucic said:

I've found two viable options for a 64GB set:

600 PLN ~ 148 USD

G.Skill RipjawsV 64GB (2x32GB) DDR4 3600MHz CL18 (F4-3600C18D-64GVK)
G.Skill Ripjaws V DDR4 64GB 3200MHz CL16 (F43200C16D64GVK) /also 2x32GB

The 4000MHz CL18 variant is 740 PLN ~ 182 USD already...

 

If I understand correctly, you seem to be using an Intel "K" processor (what CPU/Motherboard is it?).

F4-3600C18D-64GVK and F43200C16D64GVK are very much alike, performance wise, with an Intel "K" processor. No real difference in gaming (including DCS).

That 4000Mhz CL18 variant, is it F4-4000C18D-64GVK ??
64GB 4000Mhz CL18 DDR4 kit for Intel "K" is certainly better than the other two kits you mention and, at 182$00 USD, definitely worth it (really good price!).
I say go for it!

Edited July 2, 2023 by LucShep

[Bucic]

26 minutes ago, LucShep said:

If I understand correctly, you seem to be using an Intel "K" processor (what CPU/Motherboard is it?).

F4-3600C18D-64GVK and F43200C16D64GVK are very much alike, performance wise, with an Intel "K" processor. No real difference in gaming (including DCS).

That 4000Mhz CL18 variant, is it F4-4000C18D-64GVK ??
64GB 4000Mhz CL18 DDR4 kit for Intel "K" is certainly better than the other two kits you mention and, at 182$00 USD, definitely worth it (really good price!).
I say go for it!

 

I highly doubt it's a "K". It's simply the best bang for buck option in the lower price range:

Intel Core i3-12100F

motherboard: https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/PRO-B660M-A-WIFI-DDR4/support

That 4000Mhz CL18 variant is F4-4000C18D-64GVK (F44000C18D64Gvk) but I'd rather skip it There was not a single gaming benchmark that I've seen to show a significant performance advantege of a 4000 vs 3600 MHz memory of the same lineup. Did I miss something?

Edited July 2, 2023 by Bucic

[LucShep]

58 minutes ago, Bucic said:

I highly doubt it's a "K". It's simply the best bang for buck option in the lower price range:

Intel Core i3-12100F

motherboard: https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/PRO-B660M-A-WIFI-DDR4/support

That 4000Mhz CL18 variant is F4-4000C18D-64GVK (F44000C18D64Gvk) but I'd rather skip it There was not a single gaming benchmark that I've seen to show a significant performance advantege of a 4000 vs 3600 MHz memory of the same lineup. Did I miss something?

Ok, so it's a non-K CPU and not a "Z" motherboard (no CPU overclocking, and locked down memory controller voltages).
side note: the little i3 12100F may be "budget oriented" and not overclockable, but it carries a big stick... it's faster than the i7 7700K.

The B660 motherboards have no limit on the max memory speed you can run, the problem is that you're using a non-K CPU, and the non-K CPUs have locked down memory controller voltages. So, whatever memory you get, don't feel tempted to later mess with the frequency speed (overclocking) of the RAM.
Meaning, better stick with the XMP profile (it's specific for the installed memory kit), and do not mix the new memory with other memory sticks.

The sweet spot for DDR4 memory speed on a B660 motherboard is 3600-4000.
So, for that choice of 64GB memory kits you mentioned, it means you'll end up between DDR4-3600 CL18-22-22-42 versus DDR4-4000 CL18-22-22-42.... in this case, with the latter kit you get more speed (~11%) while keeping the very same latency, which is overall better. And for a 40$ USD price difference it makes it tempting (IMO).
Both will be good and it's up to you, but I'd go with the better kit (F4-4000C18D-64GVK).  

Edited July 2, 2023 by LucShep

[Bucic]

Thanks for your recommendations. And at the same time, screw you. I was partially hoping to just get a confirmation on my initial preposition of "32GB is enough"

I've just ordered the 2x32GB kit of F4-4000C18D-64GVK but there are some availability issues at the store I ordered it from.

 

As for the other part of the topic - were there ever any comments on the rise of the importance of RAM latency with regard to multi-threading in DCS?

 

On a side note, I've noticed my current memory was operating at 2133 instead of 3200 MHz for months now! The "XMP enable" setting in UEFI just toggled itself to disabled while the main settings page clearly shows a giant XMP profile button enabled. Some dumb UI design that is.

[Hiob]

Forget it. The effects of RAM latency is negligible outside of benchmarking or special needs applications. First of all you have to take into account latency AND clock combined and second there are subtimings that are at least similar important for overall performance.

If you want to be on the cutting edge of performance (that usually comes with stability issues), you may improve your FPS single digit (given that RAM/CPU is the bottleneck). But other than that, capacity is waaay more important in DCS than nano seconds or mega transfers......

And I don't want to salt your wounds, but getting a cheap 2*8 upgrade would have been the perfect solution for your needs. 64 GB are nice but by no stretch a "must" in DCS. And when you at some point want to upgrade to a new hardware generation you may already need DDR5.

Don't get me wrong - apart from price, there are no downsides to a high performance 64 GB RAM kit.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Hiob

[Bucic]

What the hell?! I sure hope the Cinebench R23 doesn't translate to DCS at all. After replacing my 3200 MHz 16 GB Corsair Vengeance RAM with the G.SKILL RipjawsV 64 GB 4000 MHz the performance score for the multithreading run dropped by something like 7%, from 8100 to 7500!

I was also eager to test my February pre-MT Open Beta and compare it against the latest built with MT but it wouldn't let me log in or pick any instant action mission. Only at a later time I recalled I manually removed the terrain files for backup/SSDcloning purposes

[LucShep]

1 hour ago, Bucic said:

What the hell?! I sure hope the Cinebench R23 doesn't translate to DCS at all. After replacing my 3200 MHz 16 GB Corsair Vengeance RAM with the G.SKILL RipjawsV 64 GB 4000 MHz the performance score for the multithreading run dropped by something like 7%, from 8100 to 7500!

I was also eager to test my February pre-MT Open Beta and compare it against the latest built with MT but it wouldn't let me log in or pick any instant action mission. Only at a later time I recalled I manually removed the terrain files for backup/SSDcloning purposes

That's very odd.
Make sure that XMP is set in the BIOS. If it's not, load the XMP profile.
After that, make sure (still in BIOS) that the DRAM GEAR MODE is set to "Gear 1". If it's not, manually change it.


For example, aside the guy's rambling, you can see how it's done in this video (one among many other out there):

 

Edited July 11, 2023 by LucShep

[Hiob]

11 hours ago, Bucic said:

What the hell?! I sure hope the Cinebench R23 doesn't translate to DCS at all.

Certainly not one for one. But there's something off nevertheless. Are you running Intel or AMD CPU?

[Bucic]

I'm on intel, specs in the OP.

It was on Gear 2 indeed! XMP engaged properly @4000. The problem is Gear 1 won't boot. I'm using the automatic MSI RAM OC profiler (MSI "Memory Ty it!") to iterate through remaining lower clocked Gear 1 profiles. I'm at 3600CL16 by now with no luck.

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Bucic

[LucShep]

1 hour ago, Bucic said:

I'm on intel, specs in the OP.

It was on Gear 2 indeed! XMP engaged properly @4000. The problem is Gear 1 won't boot. I'm using the automatic MSI RAM OC profiler (MSI "Memory Ty it!") to iterate through remaining lower clocked Gear 1 profiles. I'm at 3600CL16 by now with no luck.

Don't use MSI "Memory Ty it!", as it usually makes things far worse (uses generic algorithms instead of "tried and true" in-depth values).

XMP loaded and DRAM Gear Mode at "Gear 1" should work on your Intel 12th gen, but it may require some tweaking on fast ram kits like yours.

On the memory timings (if it's on Auto, change to Manual) change the "Command Rate" from 1T to 2T, leaving the rest of timing settings as they already are (which is by XMP profile, if that's loaded). This will relax it a bit in that particular "Command Rate" setting, making it more stable at all times, without affecting performance.

DRAM Voltage maybe too relaxed (too short) for 4000Mhz, raise it by 0.025v increments on each try (if it fails).
For example, if it's set at 1.400v, manually change it to 1.425v first, if it fails then 1.450v (but avoid more than this, for upper safe limit!).

Save and Exit, try again.

Edited July 12, 2023 by LucShep

[Hiob]

Out of the box XMP profiles are not neccessarily well tuned. Some are borderline crap. Unfortunately RAM-Overclocking is a bit finicky compared to GPU OC e.g.
I'm not to deep into it, cause I don't think it is worth the effort compared to other OCs, but I would be triggered, if I wouldn't get the advertised speeds for my RAM.

Best source I know regarding RAM stuff:

https://www.youtube.com/@ActuallyHardcoreOverclocking

 

[LucShep]

24 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Out of the box XMP profiles are not neccessarily well tuned. Some are borderline crap. Unfortunately RAM-Overclocking is a bit finicky compared to GPU OC e.g.
I'm not to deep into it, cause I don't think it is worth the effort compared to other OCs, but I would be triggered, if I wouldn't get the advertised speeds for my RAM.

Best source I know regarding RAM stuff:

https://www.youtube.com/@ActuallyHardcoreOverclocking

 

In this particular case it's not the fault of memory XMP.
Gskill Ripjaws V are among the most reliable, stable and thoroughly factory tested kits on the DDR4 market (and noticed especially on Intel systems), regardless of the speed/latency/capacity kit. 

I'm inclined to think it's down to the particular B660M motherboard, and here it's where some small adjustments can make all the difference.
Either that, or faulty RAM kit (which would be very unfortunate, but not unique) - if it's that, then perhaps swapping it for the 3600Mhz kit instead should be considered. 
Unfortunately, yeah.... it can be a bit finicky and require testing, and a lot of patience.  

Edited July 12, 2023 by LucShep

[Hiob]

6 minutes ago, LucShep said:

In this particular case it's not the fault of memory XMP.
Gskill Ripjaws V are among the most reliable, stable and thoroughly factory tested kits on the DDR4 market (and noticed especially on Intel systems), regardless of the speed/latency/capacity kit. 

I'm inclined to think it's down to the particular B660M motherboard, and here it's where some small adjustments can make all the difference.
Either that, or faulty RAM kit (which would be very unfortunate, but not unique) - if it's that, then perhaps swapping it for the 3600CL kit instead should be considered. 
Unfortunately, yeah.... it can be a bit finicky and require testing, and a lot of patience.  

 

I use Gskill Ripjaws V (3600 CL16) myself on Ryzen. And I agree - they are usually fine. Unfortunately the RAM kits don't work on their own and memory controller/cpu/mainboard have a say, too.

Memory trouble shooting is the biggest pita there is with PCs.....  

[BitMaster]

Before dialing in Volts above 1.40 volts you should know which IC your RAM uses and read up on max safe voltage for those. 

B-Die can take 1.50v 24/7 whereas some other DDR4 IC's will already be up in smoke past 1.45ish.

 

I would manually set my timing to a lower speed, i.e. 3600 with the same timings at 1.35v and see if that boots and runs OK, then you can climb the ladder if you want step by step.

3600-3800-4000   may need to raise Volts to 1.37-1.385ish to gain stability and may also reduce RAM training time needed when booting. Volts can have a big impact on training time.

 

Don't dial in 1.475v with the wrong die, it could be instant death according to some RAM-Guru's on YT.

[Bucic]

Thank you guys for the assistance. What I've seen/suspect so far:

- mobo incorrectly sets parameters; XMP states 18-22-22-42 701 tRFC ; MSI SETS 19-19-19-43 467 tRFC

- mobo overshoots with voltage; voltage set 1.400 ; after boot it's shown in UEFI as 1.412 at the top of the screen

- mobo limitations with regard to voltage adjustments: only 0.01 V steps

 

TO INVESTIGATE:

1. Does a 'fallback lockup' occur?

I came up with the naming myself. It's a case of motherboard failing to adjust a parameter (voltage, frequency etc.) to a set value once an overclock failed to boot. To break the lockup a know successful value/oc profile must be booted first, UEFI fired up again for any future values to be respected.

 

What I already tried:

1. MSI Memory try it - around 3333 appears to by a succesful entry

2. Per @BitMaster advice: 3200 MHz @ 1.35V 18-22-22-42 701 tRFC as a starting point

 

First I'm going to investigate the voltage overshoot by setting the instended voltage to 1.395 or something like that to get to that 4000 MHz

Q1. An important question:

May I opt for DRAM frequency to be the only variable? By simply setting the voltage to 1.395 and timings to 18-22-22-42 701 tRFC. I simply wouldn't want to dive into this. It's a waste of time.

Q2. Do you guys know any tricks using 'Eventual DRAM voltage' (right below 'DRAM voltage' in UEFI)? It's "the voltage your memory uses when the system passes memory training/boot up sequence"

Q3. 'DRAM reference clock' 100 or 133 mhz
A. No matta. Source: https://www.overclock.net/threads/133-mode-vs-100-mode.1704874/

 

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Bucic

[Bucic]

With 3600 MHz @ 1.39V 18-22-22-42 701 tRFC I'm already back and beyond the old 3200 RAM, with 8200 points in Cinebench R23 multicore. Sounds a bit meh but at least I'm no longer worried I paid plenty of money for almost a downgrade.

[BitMaster]

Bucic,

your RAM needs 1.40 Volts according to the Gskill website *if you run it at or just below 4000MHz* and I wouldn't lower it manually unless it is proven stable first. I adviice ..leave it at 1.41ish

Mine runs at 1.500v in HWinfo and Bios is set to 1.485. It's normal that they overshoot and it's ok to give a lil extra.

 

Check Typhoon Burner   https://www.softnology.biz/files.html and see if it reads your die's. All die's have a set of timings they like best, usually regardless of who solders them to a PCB ( Gskill, Corsair, Patriot, etc.. ).

Once you know what Dies you run you can use those values to tune them in if you like.

Most important why to know what Die is the Max Voltage question...if it's B-Die and you got good airflow you can have 1.45-1.50v all day all year rock solid.

 

Typhoon will very likely be blocked by your Antivirus, Kaspersky and Defender do it but you can set it as "allowed", meanwhile my now deployed Acronis Security Suite blocks it, despite all allowances and checkmarks..meh.

Edited July 12, 2023 by BitMaster

[Bucic]

@BitMaster

I'm in the process of confirming the following:

1. Set up a known booting DRAM config

2. Bump up DRAM to 1.4 or 1.41 V

3. Failed boot?

YES >> The memory won't accept 1.4 V

Actual result: NO >> The memory accepts 1.412 V TRUE voltage (1.4 SET)

 

For future reference my convention is:

SET voltage - the value antered manually in UEFI

TRUE voltage - the value reported by UEFI (and other monitoring software) as current operating voltage

 

I tend to stick to what the TRUE voltage is for now.

Typhoon Burner

No B-Die for me. Hynix is the manufacturer. They are freaking fresh though! Date of manufacture: July 2023

 

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Bucic