[SAMs] P-14 "Tall King" as search radar for SA-5 "Gammon"

[Wild_Weasel_31]

SA-5 Gammon (S-200 Angara/Vega/Dubna) is a very long-lange SAM system and can be considered as unique in DCS nowadays.

Unfortunately, it can't use all of it's capabilities because of lnsufficient range of P-19 or 19J6 (ST-68U) search radars, which are part of it at the moment. According to it's manual handbook [общие сведения о с-200.djvu, page 7], SA-2 is capable of receiving information about target coordinates via K9V cabin, coonected to:

1. Automated control systems: 5S99 "Senezh" (5С99 "Сенеж"), "Vector-2M" ("Вектор-2М"), ASURK-1MA (АСУРК-1МА), ASURK-1P (АСУРК-1П), etc.

2. Radar altimeter PRV13 or PRV17 (ПРВ-13, ПРВ-17)

3. Radar station P-14F "Lena" (РЛС 5Н84 П-14Ф "Лена") also known as Tall King.

4. Radar complex P-80A "Altay" or K66 ("Cabin 66") (РЛК П-80А "Алтай" или К-66), which consists of two radar rangefinders and four radar altimeters

Third option (using P-14 radar for circular target search) is, for my opinion, optimal because of it's significant range, which allows to detect tagets outside of 5V21A missile range and use all of it's capabilities, respectively.

Futhermore, P-14 radar is already awailable to use in DCS (stationary version 4J66 (4Ж66) )as a third-party modification by @tripod3

It is only needed to add it to the DCS CoreMods and edit LUA code in order to make possible information exchange between P-14 and 5N62 Square Pair TR. Adding mobile version 5N84 is desirable too

Edited July 13, 2023 by Wild_Weasel_31

[Northstar98]

Yep, would be nice.

I've done several posts about it already:

 

Not only would it be far more suitable for the SA-5 than the P-19 and Tin Shield (which are most commonly associated with the SA-3 and SA-10 respectively), it would also make for a pretty decent EWR/GCI radar. In satellite imagery you can find P-14s at various sites (sometimes colocated with SA-5 sites) in areas that some our maps (both present and upcoming) cover.

Spoiler

FWIW: AFAIK, the acquisition radar commonly associated with the SA-2 is the P-12/-12M and the P-18 (I assume SA-2 is just a typo) and the radar associated with the S-200V/VE and those seen in satellite imagery are specifically the 5N84A Oborona-14 (P-14F) [Tall King C], AFAIK the Lena name is for the first (static) P-14 variant (otherwise known as the 1RL113).

Edited July 6, 2023 by Northstar98

[TheGhostOfDefi]

16 hours ago, Wild_Weasel_31 said:

SA-2 Gammon (S-200 Angara/Vega/Dubna) is a very long-lange SAM system and can be considered as unique in DCS nowadays.

Unfortunately, it can't use all of it's capabilities because of lnsufficient range of P-19 or 19J6 (ST-68U) search radars, which are part of it at the moment. According to it's manual handbook [общие сведения о с-200.djvu, page 7], SA-2 is capable of receiving information about target coordinates via K9V cabin, coonected to:

1. Automated control systems: 5S99 "Senezh" (5С99 "Сенеж"), "Vector-2M" ("Вектор-2М"), ASURK-1MA (АСУРК-1МА), ASURK-1P (АСУРК-1П), etc.

2. Radar altimeter PRV13 or PRV17 (ПРВ-13, ПРВ-17)

3. Radar station P-14F "Lena" (РЛС 5Н84 П-14Ф "Лена") also known as Tall King.

4. Radar complex P-80A "Altay" or K66 ("Cabin 66") (РЛК П-80А "Алтай" или К-66), which consists of two radar rangefinders and four radar altimeters

Third option (using P-14 radar for circular target search) is, for my opinion, optimal because of it's significant range, which allows to detect tagets outside of 5V21A missile range and use all of it's capabilities, respectively.

Futhermore, P-14 radar is already awailable to use in DCS (stationary version 4J66 (4Ж66) )as a third-party modification by @tripod3

It is only needed to add it to the DCS CoreMods and edit LUA code in order to make possible information exchange between P-14 and 5N62 Square Pair TR. Adding mobile version 5N84 is desirable too

 

You have a typo: SA-2 Guideline (S-75 Dwina) mixed up with the SA-5 Gammon (S-200). But does the handbook say S-75 oder S-200? 

[FlankerKiller]

The SA-5 definitely needs a much more powerful search radar. Also something to think about. If you put all your Sam's in one group only the biggest radar runs until a threat is near. Pair this up with spred out SA-2s and you could get into trouble easily. 

[Ironhand]

On 7/6/2023 at 7:25 AM, TheGhostOfDefi said:

You have a typo: SA-2 Guideline (S-75 Dwina) mixed up with the SA-5 Gammon (S-200). But does the handbook say S-75 oder S-200? 

S-200

Title reads: General Information About the S-200 Anti-aircraft Missile System and 5B21A Rocket.

Edited July 7, 2023 by Ironhand

[Wild_Weasel_31]

On 7/6/2023 at 2:25 PM, TheGhostOfDefi said:

You have a typo: SA-2 Guideline (S-75 Dwina) mixed up with the SA-5 Gammon (S-200)

Thx, corrected

[okopanja]

On 7/5/2023 at 8:52 PM, Wild_Weasel_31 said:

SA-5 Gammon (S-200 Angara/Vega/Dubna) is a very long-lange SAM system and can be considered as unique in DCS nowadays.

Unfortunately, it can't use all of it's capabilities because of lnsufficient range of P-19 or 19J6 (ST-68U) search radars, which are part of it at the moment. According to it's manual handbook [общие сведения о с-200.djvu, page 7], SA-2 is capable of receiving information about target coordinates via K9V cabin, coonected to:

1. Automated control systems: 5S99 "Senezh" (5С99 "Сенеж"), "Vector-2M" ("Вектор-2М"), ASURK-1MA (АСУРК-1МА), ASURK-1P (АСУРК-1П), etc.

2. Radar altimeter PRV13 or PRV17 (ПРВ-13, ПРВ-17)

3. Radar station P-14F "Lena" (РЛС 5Н84 П-14Ф "Лена") also known as Tall King.

4. Radar complex P-80A "Altay" or K66 ("Cabin 66") (РЛК П-80А "Алтай" или К-66), which consists of two radar rangefinders and four radar altimeters

Third option (using P-14 radar for circular target search) is, for my opinion, optimal because of it's significant range, which allows to detect tagets outside of 5V21A missile range and use all of it's capabilities, respectively.

Futhermore, P-14 radar is already awailable to use in DCS (stationary version 4J66 (4Ж66) )as a third-party modification by @tripod3

It is only needed to add it to the DCS CoreMods and edit LUA code in order to make possible information exchange between P-14 and 5N62 Square Pair TR. Adding mobile version 5N84 is desirable too

 

Situation is a bit more complex. What you do not realize from that manual is that the SAM site could be controlled/supplied with targets from command posts integrating multiple different sensors.

It does not have to be a single radar, in fact the system did secure in this way resistance to the jamming...

In most cases the deployed variants outside of Soviet union were of simple topological. In contrast Soviet layout was much more complex and resistant to e.g. Jamming.

I will attach 2 diagrams that are not directly from Soviet sources, but rather book published last year.

https://tangosix.rs/2022/19/07/nova-knjiga-esalon-sve-o-sovjetskim-i-ruskim-radarskim-sredstvima-komandno-informacionim-sistemima-i-sistemima-automatizacije/

[okopanja]

The S-200 could also have own EWR radar in case of ASURK being disconnected. A single ASURK-1M could command with up to 8 batteries, where up to 5 could be S-200. Typcally this was a mix of S-75, S-125, and S-200 systems.

The usage of independent SAMS (S-75) in Vietnam war with coverage of 4-7 uncoordinated overlapping batteries, did lead to events where a single target is engaged by multiple batteries, resulting in rather comical situations where target got hit multiple times, or even parts of falling busters of previously fired rockets getting targeting as well.

Clearly ED's SAMs, even the most modern ones, do not have this kind of de-conflicting and prioritization. Essentially it is on the level of early 60s.

Edited July 12, 2023 by okopanja

[Wild_Weasel_31]

On 7/12/2023 at 2:32 PM, okopanja said:

The S-200 could also have own EWR radar in case of ASURK being disconnected. A single ASURK-1M could command with up to 8 batteries, where up to 5 could be S-200. Typcally this was a mix of S-75, S-125, and S-200 systems.

The usage of independent SAMS (S-75) in Vietnam war with coverage of 4-7 uncoordinated overlapping batteries, did lead to events where a single target is engaged by multiple batteries, resulting in rather comical situations where target got hit multiple times, or even parts of falling busters of previously fired rockets getting targeting as well.

Clearly ED's SAMs, even the most modern ones, do not have this kind of de-conflicting and prioritization. Essentially it is on the level of early 60s.

 

I think, primarily it is needed to bring each SAM asset into line with historical prototypes individually and then think about some kind of "Skynet" implementation. For example, HighDigitSAMs mod already has a Polyana-D4 ACS designed to control SA-10 and SA-11 sites simultaneously