Need urgent explanation. I can't get power to take off.

[Ramsay]

On 7/12/2023 at 4:15 PM, Kinkkujuustovoileipä said:

3) ... It's probably a bug, and will get fixed.

I'm not sure it's a bug and it's something to check with your SME's and/or SA-342 documentation.

I suspect the SA-341 and SA-342 avionics/FADEC differ as I can't find any SA-342 videos where the "starter switch" is moved to it's center "ARRET" position while in flight or before shut down.

However there are plenty of SA-341 startup and flight videos* where starter switch up (lift and pull) is ignition and it's then moved to a middle  "run" position.

* This included a civilian French cockpit with a similar instrument and warning panel layout to our L - but checking it's registration using google revealed it to be a SA-341F.

Here at 5:33 a SA342M engine test is shut down by  moving the Starter (FADEC ?) switch to the ARRET middle position.

... which is exactly what we see in DCS.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Ramsay

[DmitriKozlowsky]

7 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Very strange then that I just flew the first mission in the included campaign, and killed four enemies with HOTs without hovering.
Well, you do you. It will of course get even better, but it's so much better now. What can I say.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk
 

What HOTAS r u using? May I ask. I am using X-56 Rhino 2.0 (black). 

[RealDCSpilot]

@DmitriKozlowsky Have you already tried the usual trouble shooting procedures? DCS repair and cleanup? Renaming (deactivating) the Savegame folder?

It's pretty obvious that others don't have the problems you have. So it must be something local on your end. Maybe a video would help understanding what is going on, with the axis input indicator display visible.

The only current bugs i've seen at the moment are:

- FFB trimming totally unusable
- weird dynamic torque limiting on the collective
- auto hover mode not working
- CTDs when a HOT3 impacts on certain AA units

Nevertheless, it's already useable, just keep moving, don't try to hover and disable the magnetic brake and never trim.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

"Don't try to hover" . Do you mean  DONT AUTOHOVER? That function is non-working anyway for me. Not hovering is really not an option. Hovering is basic at T/O and landing, and flight. That possibility that there is a hovering issue indicates some real serious other issues in FM or control. I was thinking that there may be a control issue, not neccessarily an FM issue, but two are related, so there is no way to tell. Right now I have serious unarrestable dynamic rolls to the left, when helo is in IGE, or on ground with power for T/O.  I don't use magnetic brake trim.

[Holbeach]

Autohover has acknowledged problems. Hovering has no problems.

Magnetic brake is OK. I use it all the time.

..

[MAXsenna]

Autohover has acknowledged problems. Hovering has no problems.
Magnetic brake is OK. I use it all the time.
..

Magnetic brake is unusable for us with FFB, but that's acknowledged and will be fixed in the next patch. So it's not an issue for me.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[MAXsenna]

11 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

What HOTAS r u using? May I ask. I am using X-56 Rhino 2.0 (black). 

To be fair, I'm actually using HOCAC in helicopters.

Cyclic, an old secondhand twentysomething Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2.
Collective, K-51, Love it. Mounted on a secondhand Playseat.
Pedals, Slaw Rotors, velcroed to the Playseat carpet that came with the seat.
Rotor brake and fuel lever, A secondhand Warthog throttle, velcroed to the top on an old computer on the left side.
Vivianne periscope, TM T16000M
I also use a couple of TM MFDs for some stuff, and two Razer Cynosa keyboards (V1/V2), I haven't bothered to program yet, as Polychop hasn't really bothered to populate the key binds with keystrokes. Which is very sad. I prefer not to mess with them, and it's very boring to come up with my own.

When I fly I have both the sticks on top of a board on my lap, and I fly with the magnetic brake off, as FFB trimming has an issue that has been acknowledged and a fix is coming. Which means my stick is sloppy and non-centering, which helps a lot obviously. I slew the Vivianne with my left hand and fly with the right from the co-pilot's seat.

I am VERY gentle with the collective on take offs and landings, and the pedals make it easier I admit. I hold my fingers below the grip on the stick so my hand completely rests on the base of the stick.
I bet you have your stick on top of a desk, which does you such a disfavor in both helicopters and planes. Take the spring out if possible, or add some rubberbands or whatnot around the stick so it's not self-centered, and put it in your lap. You will tank me later.

Cheers!

 

Edited July 14, 2023 by MAXsenna

[Holbeach]

Beats my X-52, but I can still fly a Gazelle without problems.

..

[DmitriKozlowsky]

OK, I think I have partially tamed the beast.

Following conditions;

Special Options SA342: Central Trimmer mode , Trimmer FadeIn/FadeOUT

During flight: TRIM: ON , Magnetic Brake: ON. Even though I don't have FFB. Just X56.

When those conditions are met.  Trimmer works like in UH-1H and KA-50.   Canceling trimmer is smooth. Violent FM excursions have most disappeared, except that there is a tendency for abrupt aft transition on take off once skids break contact.

[MAXsenna]

OK, I think I have partially tamed the beast.
Following conditions;
Special Options SA342: Central Trimmer mode , Trimmer FadeIn/FadeOUT
During flight: TRIM: ON , Magnetic Brake: ON. Even though I don't have FFB. Just X56.
When those conditions are met.  Trimmer works like in UH-1H and KA-50.   Canceling trimmer is smooth. Violent FM excursions have most disappeared, except that there is a tendency for abrupt aft transition on take off once skids break contact.

Excellent!
Flying the MAD campaign today. Damn, that one was harder. It's like the right skid is glued to the ground even if I push the collective all the way to the left, it has a tendency to tip right. Even when there's a rocket pod mounted on the left side, and nothing on the right.
Well, well see next update I guess.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Raven (Elysian Angel)]

On 7/12/2023 at 9:11 PM, DmitriKozlowsky said:

I need almost full right pedal deflection to keep from spinning when it leaves ground.

That's normal for a fenestron: they need more pedal input than traditional tail rotors.

[RealDCSpilot]

Should be fixed now.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Someone saidd that in SA342M/L/W  Starter switch also acts as FADEC ON/OFF.  So it should be left on. Maybe thats correct , maybe not. I am inclined to think that its not, and that setting STARTER to OFF (Arrette) in flight shuts of engine, even with full throttle. I think this is erroneous functionality, as simulated. If it was that critical, STARTER would be a a red guarded switch. Like throttle lever has lock. In RW Gazelle, the throttle lever would be have some kind of safety friction lock, and in my sim shortcuts, I have it mapped to axis but with modifier button. The modifier must be held down for throttle axis to be read by DCS. That guards against accidental brushing , shutting off throttle, forcing autorotation.

There is a real world fatal incident. The Bell Ranger sightseeing helicopter went into Hudson river, and four passengers drowned. Pilot survived. Passengers were not instructed how to undo their safety restraints in emergency, and could not free themselves. Investigation stated that copilot seat passenger somehow got straps of his photobag snagged on engine throttles, and pulled them into CUTOFF. How that peice of bad engineering could get past Bell all these decades, I dunno. But explanation was that Ranger is not certified to have passenger in copilot (left) seat. 

[Ramsay]

5 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

Maybe thats correct , maybe not. I am inclined to think that its not,

The French documentation for the SA342 starter switch says that - with the Fuel Flow Lever at Minimum, the ARRET (OFF) position cuts the (electric ?) supply to the fuel inlet servo and stops the engine.

Quote

Place sur ARRET, la manette de debit prealablement ramenee en butee arriere, l'alimentation de la servovalve du arrivee du carburant et arret du moteur.

 As far as I can tell from youtube videos of the SA342 in flight -
• In flight it's normal for the Fuel Flow lever to be at Max and the "Starter" switch left "ON" .
• The procedure to stop the engine after landing is :-
1. Move the Fuel Flow Lever slowly to minimum
2. Switch the "Starter" switch to Arret (OFF) to stop the engine.

* As the documentation specifies the Fuel Flow Lever needs to be at Minimum, Polychop interpret this to mean the engine won't stop when the Fuel Flow Lever is at Max Position - this may be correct as the SA-341 's "ON/RUN" position has oil/fuel pressure sensors that perform a similar function (if my interpretation of it's flight manual is correct).

Video of a SA-342 Engine shut down @15:20

 

5 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

... setting STARTER to OFF (Arrette) in flight shuts of engine, even with full throttle. I think this is erroneous functionality, as simulated.

AFAIK - it does not, in fact a hot started RUNNING SA-342L spawns in with the Fuel Flow lever at MAX and it's starter switch set to ARRET (OFF) - which seems like a bug - as I have yet to see a video of a SA-342 in flight with it's "Starter" switch set to ARRET.

Tested with a SA-342L in Open Beta Multi-thread 2.8.7.42583

For Info: From the Open Beta 2.8.7.42583 change log

Quote

DCS: SA-342 Gazelle by Polychop Simulations

• Improved: Starter switch can now correctly be placed in ‘OFF/ARRET’ position once fuel is flowing

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/170893-dcs-world-changelog-and-updates-of-open-beta/?do=findComment&comment=5264276

 

Edited July 26, 2023 by Ramsay

[DmitriKozlowsky]

10 hours ago, Ramsay said:

The French documentation for the SA342 starter switch says that - with the Fuel Flow Lever at Minimum, the ARRET (OFF) position cuts the (electric ?) supply to the fuel inlet servo and stops the engine.

 As far as I can tell from youtube videos of the SA342 in flight -
• In flight it's normal for the Fuel Flow lever to be at Max and the "Starter" switch left "ON" .
• The procedure to stop the engine after landing is :-
1. Move the Fuel Flow Lever slowly to minimum
2. Switch the "Starter" switch to Arret (OFF) to stop the engine.

* As the documentation specifies the Fuel Flow Lever needs to be at Minimum, Polychop interpret this to mean the engine won't stop when the Fuel Flow Lever is at Max Position - this may be correct as the SA-341 's "ON/RUN" position has oil/fuel pressure sensors that perform a similar function (if my interpretation of it's flight manual is correct).

Video of a SA-342 Engine shut down @15:20

 

AFAIK - it does not, in fact a hot started RUNNING SA-342L spawns in with the Fuel Flow lever at MAX and it's starter switch set to ARRET (OFF) - which seems like a bug - as I have yet to see a video of a SA-342 in flight with it's "Starter" switch set to ARRET.

Tested with a SA-342L in Open Beta Multi-thread 2.8.7.42583

For Info: From the Open Beta 2.8.7.42583 change log

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/170893-dcs-world-changelog-and-updates-of-open-beta/?do=findComment&comment=5264276

 

 

OK, but, if STARTER is switched OFF in fliight with fuel throttle to MAX, the engine is shutdown in flight. With throttle to MAX, STARTER OFF should not shut down the engine. Its an inherently unsafe design in real life, and not would not be so. Otherwise it would be a super guarded switch with bright red cover and lock. So it possibly incorrectly implemented in the sim. With throttle at below idle, STARTER to OFF should shut down the engine, but not at throttle at MAX. Well that just IMHO. 

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Just got latest update. Damn! The new FM now feels great. The gross weight is now correct, or feels like it, after in-mission refuel/rearm. With 30 % fuel, and no weapons, the Gazelle just leaps off the ground. There is still odd right torque and slight aft displacement, but that may be due to slightly off take off trim. My T/O cyclic trim is slightly left and slightly aft. Once engaged with mag brake, only slight cyclic displacemt is needed to fly the helicopter.