corkscrew on turns?

[gdotts]

Dots1 ...Got a question on P-51D.  Why in a turn executed maybe a little too tight does the bird go nuts and corkscrew into the ground?  If flown gentle it will fly nice, but no fight is gentle!!

[Nickelmouse]

Sounds like you are experiencing a “spin” where the wing to the inside of the turn stalls (stops flying) before the outer wing.

This will occur when the relative airflow comes at too steep of an angle to the wing (angle of attack, aka AoA or alpha).  This condition is the result of too slow an airspeed (that’s why this happens to the inner wing first) or too high of a demand on the wing (pulling too hard).

You are now familiar with why dogfighting is an art; how much performance can you squeeze out of your plane before it stops working?

Learn-on friend.

[grafspee]

You can call it snap roll.

[probad]

the airplane is angery with you because you are not doing what it likes to do which is flying wide circles fast. you need to pass the enemy with more separation and run up on his tail. if you see a lot of his top side that is a bad sign and your attack geometry is wrong.

when you start feeling like a little kid peeking up a skirt then you are doing it right

[VZ_342]

On 7/23/2023 at 11:09 AM, gdotts said:

Dots1 ...Got a question on P-51D.  Why in a turn executed maybe a little too tight does the bird go nuts and corkscrew into the ground?  If flown gentle it will fly nice, but no fight is gentle!!

This happened to me several times, and caused me to look into YouTube pilot training videos (they fly Cessnas, but all flying problems are the same). You have to recognize you're in a spin quickly to give you and the plane time to respond.

 

• Cut the throttle (counterintuitive, I used to think one could just "power out of a spin"...no!)
• Apply neutral stick and opposite rudder, reducing pressure as the spin slows (again, counterintuitive, if your left wing is down, wouldn't you try to make it level? No! Use opposite rudder as a sort of a cup or aluminum parachute to slow or stop the spin).
• Gently pull out of the dive while slowly increasing the throttle.

https://youtu.be/4LX2amQ7lzo?si=SGPHb-uFWvJ4e0Gy

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

 

Yes, you're in a dogfight, but "slow is fast, fast is smooth". You have two options: fly as described to get out of the spin, or crash.

Edited September 1, 2023 by VZ_342

[grafspee]

On 7/23/2023 at 8:09 PM, gdotts said:

  If flown gentle it will fly nice, but no fight is gentle!!

Dogfight at 30k ft in warbirds looks like ballet in slow motion. 

You need to steer stick with one finger not to stall out of the sky.

Edited September 2, 2023 by grafspee

[flygav]

I had to set my stick to a big gradual curve or it will snap on ya. Its not a good turning plane here unlike what the RL combat pilots say. I can out turn 190 with 1 notch of flaps. But if 109s are on you, flaps and stall speed and hope they make a mistake and go in the ground. Thats the only thing you can hope for in that situation. Avoid 109 if you dont get a fast kill or hope for a newbe

[grafspee]

21 hours ago, flygav said:

I had to set my stick to a big gradual curve or it will snap on ya. Its not a good turning plane here unlike what the RL combat pilots say. I can out turn 190 with 1 notch of flaps. But if 109s are on you, flaps and stall speed and hope they make a mistake and go in the ground. Thats the only thing you can hope for in that situation. Avoid 109 if you dont get a fast kill or hope for a newbe

It is like in RL, there are non encounter reports with 109K4 and all of them are encounters with G series most common 109 version or other. And those had less power then K-4 and high alt performance was noticeably lower too.

So P-51 can out turn / out run 109 G due to 1700hp engine and much better high alt performance but can not out turn K-4 which has same power and high alt performance  at about the same level.

 Worth mentioning is that P-51B/C with V-1650-3 which was significant faster then P-51D at certain altitudes, if pilot knew P-51B/C well could blow any 109 out of his tail with out breaking a sweat.

PPL completely ignore fact that every plane during ww2 went significant changes upgrades etc. It is like telling that K-4 should not have constant speed prop because 109s from BoB haven't one so this is unlike RL.

Another factor is number of planes production K-4 and D-9 numbers are like droplet in ocean, compare to G series of 109 or A series of 190.

Maybe some day we will get G-6 or G-2 with derated power to 1.2ATA and also we will get P-51B/C or P-51A and then we will be able to out turn and our run G-2 in every scenario till then with K-4 it is not an option. 

Same case with ppl hearing that P-51 is great alt fighter, so they buy DCS P-51 climb it to 30k ft and pull stick all the way and they complain that this is not like IRL, P-51 is great alt fighter so it can not stall in tight turn. 

Edited March 9 by grafspee

[_Hoss]

Keep the ball in the middle of the slip indicator with rudder control. Keep your turn speed around 270 mph..... Don't be too poor to pay attention to your instruments.