Radar Mode A2 doesn't work (MT+ST) (when no waypoint is available)

[TOViper]

Hi folks,
MT & ST versions of OB 2.8.7.42718
Multiplayer Caucasus
A2 doesn' show anything, despite A1 works fine, see screenshots:

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by TOViper
changed title according to latest tests

[TOViper]

My fellow teammate told me that with only LS in the waypoint database A2 doesn't work.
With at least one more waypoint in the database (e.g. by adding L1 in flight) it seems to work.

I thought A2 would scan in the forward area from 1000m to 10000m ahead of the aircraft, no matter if there is a waypoint or not. At least, this can be found in the RC2.1 on page 118:
"If the radar is set to B-scope, the narrow search program is used. The B-scope displays the area 1,000 m-10 km ahead of the aircraft."
 

@MYSE1234 What would you say, is the sim behaving correctly?

Edited August 2, 2023 by TOViper

[Zabuzard]

Please doublecheck that you did not select a RB-05. As soon as you select that missile, the radar will automatically switch to A0 (without actually moving the switch itself). The user has to flip-flop the switch to re-activate the previous mode.

So it could be that you just selected a RB-05 while being in A2, giving you the impression that it seems to be dead, despite the switch being set to A2. And when then switching to A1, it re-activated that mode.

[MYSE1234]

13 hours ago, TOViper said:

My fellow teammate told me that with only LS in the waypoint database A2 doesn't work.
With at least one more waypoint in the database (e.g. by adding L1 in flight) it seems to work.

I thought A2 would scan in the forward area from 1000m to 10000m ahead of the aircraft, no matter if there is a waypoint or not. At least, this can be found in the RC2.1 on page 118:
"If the radar is set to B-scope, the narrow search program is used. The B-scope displays the area 1,000 m-10 km ahead of the aircraft."
 

@MYSE1234 What would you say, is the sim behaving correctly?

 

Only having LS set in CK is definitely going to cause issues in general as it's been broken the last 1.5 years.

A2 (B-scope) is in the mapping mode only going to show you the area "centred" (in distance) around the currently selected waypoint. Which together with the issue above, is an issue.
So without any waypoint selected (effectively what happens when you select LS currently) it doesn't have any range data, so I guess it breaks because of that.

The 1km-10km scan range in front of the aircraft is for the terrain avoidance mode with the 15km setting. That is obviously not going to show as much as the normal mapping mode would though.
The A-A mode however might be used for a similar, but better scan I think.

 

1 hour ago, Zabuzard said:

Please doublecheck that you did not select a RB-05. As soon as you select that missile, the radar will automatically switch to A0 (without actually moving the switch itself). The user has to flip-flop the switch to re-activate the previous mode.

...

It switches over when you fire the missile, and in A0 the scope is not displaying anything, it's just black. So it's unfortunately it's not that as the scope can be seen displaying stuff.

[TOViper]

2 hours ago, Zabuzard said:

Please doublecheck that you did not select a RB-05. As soon as you select that missile, the radar will automatically switch to A0 (without actually moving the switch itself). The user has to flip-flop the switch to re-activate the previous mode.

So it could be that you just selected a RB-05 while being in A2, giving you the impression that it seems to be dead, despite the switch being set to A2. And when then switching to A1, it re-activated that mode.

I had a clean aircraft, no weapons on board.

[TOViper]

To shorten this topic, I will change the RC2.1 accordingly.
Please guys take a look to the new section for page 116, and tell me if you understand what I wrote here please, thanks!

edit: picture removed

Edited August 3, 2023 by TOViper

[QuiGon]

12 hours ago, TOViper said:

To shorten this topic, I will change the RC2.1 accordingly.
Please guys take a look to the new section for page 116, and tell me if you understand what I wrote here please, thanks!

Uhm, you added that note to the section of the terrain avoidance mode. That's not where it belongs, because in TA mode, the B-Scope should show the area 1 - 10 km ahead of the aircraft if I understand correctly. Your note should be added to the B-scope explanation when used in normal radar search mode (not TA mode).

Edited August 3, 2023 by QuiGon

[TOViper]

Oh, I see, thanks for the headup!
I repaired it immediately, now looking like this:
null

Edited August 3, 2023 by TOViper

[Machalot]

If you believe the note is necessary, I think you should reword it.  It's more of a limitation than a "should".  Something like "If no valid waypoint is selected, the B- scope may not display any returns."

[TOViper]

Thank you!

Note: For the B-scope, a waypoint in the vicinity of the area of interest is necessary!
Otherwise, the B-scope may not display any returns.

[jetkid]

Hi!

It's unclear to me whether HB is fixing the bug.

At the moment the behavior is exactly as declared by @MYSE1234 and as described into @TOViper document. I doubt this was the behavior of the real life counterpart.

Some information @Zabuzard?

[jetkid]

No information about this problem? 

[Machalot]

3 hours ago, jetkid said:

No information about this problem? 

We discussed several issues in this thread, only one of which was a loosely related bug if I remember correctly. Can you be more specific? 

[jetkid]

On 11/22/2023 at 3:31 AM, Machalot said:

We discussed several issues in this thread, only one of which was a loosely related bug if I remember correctly. Can you be more specific? 

Hi @Machalot

It's about B-Scope not working properly.

The radar displays ground reflections only in a +-10km range centered onto the waypoint (B or M or U).

Exactly as declared by @MYSE1234 

It's unclear to me whether HB -mentioning here @Zabuzard- is fixing the bug.

 

Thx

 

 

[MYSE1234]

6 hours ago, jetkid said:

It's about B-Scope not working properly.
The radar displays ground reflections only in a +-10km range centered onto the waypoint (B or M or U).

What part of it?
It being "centred" (it's really -6 km to +4 km around the WP being shown) on the waypoint is how it should be. The only issue here that I can see is that the pilot did not define any waypoints in the computer, something I very much doubt would be done IRL. And also that LS is not really selectable as a waypoint, but A2 is still working as it should.
It's weird, but it is correct.

Edited December 2, 2023 by MYSE1234

[jetkid]

Hi @MYSE1234

Still not clear to me, sorry

Scenario I tried:

• 3 different "B" waypoints
• Distance between waypoints: 50 km

 

b-scope mode starts reflecting ground terrain / objects and displaying data on CI only when near the waypoint (now i know it's -6 km to +4 km range)

but when i'm for example between A and B or B and C, let's say in the middle (25km away from both previous and next waypoint), b-scope shows nothing, while standard mode works normally displaying data on CI

 

So, is this correct behavior?

 

Thx again!

[MYSE1234]

I'm not quite sure I follow what you mean I'm afraid. A2 works at long ranges too for me, just need to make sure you have the appropriate range setting/antenna elevation, along with proper gain.

Here's a ship at ~78 km (7,8 mil for the cool kids) distance.

And a closer one. ~50km closer than the first one


Between the two waypoints/ships.


If you have a track showing the issue you're seeing I'll happily have a look at it.

[RedeyeStorm]

I believe @jetkid is expecting a ‘snowplow’ effect on the B-scope when traveling between B1 and B2.

[jetkid]

Hi all.

Above a simple path to test B-Scope. Here we have Gulf Map, but same behavior applies on all maps.

Distance amongst waypoints approx 30km.

My problem is about terrain mapping on CI, not on targets.

In the saved track you can see B-Scope sometimes not "drawing" the ground inside CI, while PPI does always. Furthermore you can see the "centered" behavior near waypoints (in ME I've setup B types, but the same applies on all the types), in which radar snowplot "goes up" into CI thus "erasing" the parts below.

Weird thing: switching from AG to AA radar modes (IR missile on weapons selector), B-scope draws the terrain correctly. Coming back to AG mode even adjusting elevation, no diplayed terrain on CI.

99% of time with CI maximum contrast applied.

 

Track in attach @MYSE1234

 

It's a bit long track but i think interesting because you can find several strange things on B-Scope mode. Imho. 

 

Thank you very much!

ASJ37_bscope_test.trk

[TOViper]

23 hours ago, MYSE1234 said:

It's weird, but it is correct.

Yes, but I think it is helpful to imagine that the radar antenna keeps looking directly onto that waypoint during the time you are passing the waypoint.

But this picture KILLS me:

I am already 7km away from B2 (I overflew it), B2 is in the opposite direction (after 5km I switched manually back to B2), and the radar starts showing things in front of me. Look at the street at 1 o'clock, which can be seen on the CI as well (its lighter than everything else)...

Edited December 2, 2023 by TOViper

[MYSE1234]

 

2 hours ago, jetkid said:

 

Hi all.

Above a simple path to test B-Scope. Here we have Gulf Map, but same behavior applies on all maps.

...

I think you have the wrong idea for how the system works.
The times where it did not show anything on the scope is when you have terrain between you and the area that the B-scope is showing. So by having the displayed area in radar shadow you get a blank image, as the scope is only every going to show you the area (in distance) around the waypoint. In azimuth it's showing +- 20 deg each side at all times, no matter what, meaning you have to point the aircraft at the waypoint to actually see that area.

I did a "quick" little illustration from the begin of your track, showing B1.
The two images on top are straight from the radar scope, showing both A1 and A2 modes. The bottom left image is overlaid with the area that A2 will show, and on the on the bottom right you have that same area copied over and distorted to fit the square B-scope image.
The "B-scope area" has it's borders as such:

• Far border: Distance to waypoint + 4 km
• Close border: Distance to waypoint - 6 km
• Left/right border: 20 degrees from the centre line

Comparing the two right images show that they are practically identical with regards top the area that show returns. The gain is higher in the A1 image, but...



Here's one that show that you're seeing pretty much, when you have terrain in front of you and what it does when you're not pointing the aircraft at the waypoint selected. The area inside the marked area does not have any returns and will thus not show anything on the scope in A2.

In the A-A mode and the TA mode it does not do this however, which is why you say "...B-scope draws the terrain correctly" when you use those, it just shows the 1 -11 km area in front of the aircraft in those, and the same 20 deg sideways. No weird SAAB stuff going on.

Edited December 2, 2023 by MYSE1234

[TOViper]

Hey @MYSE1234!
I edited my own post above about one hour ago, maybe during the time you prepared your post for jetkid.
I cut much of it, since I noticed that I wrote BS.
But my picture remains, if you would be so kind and take a look ... its weird.
It seems that when the waypoint is behind the aircraft, the A2 mode shows stuff.

[MYSE1234]

7 minutes ago, TOViper said:

Hey @MYSE1234!
I edited my own post above about one hour ago, maybe during the time you prepared your post for jetkid.
I cut much of it, since I noticed that I wrote BS.
But my picture remains, if you would be so kind and take a look ... its weird.
It seems that when the waypoint is behind the aircraft, the A2 mode shows stuff.

It does the same thing there as what I've written above. It just takes the distance to the waypoint and places the far and close border accordingly. The side borders are always 20 degrees each side of the centre line.
It's similar to the last image, just the waypoint is behind you, but the aircraft does not take that into account. It just does what it always does.

Edited December 2, 2023 by MYSE1234

[TOViper]

3 minutes ago, MYSE1234 said:

It just takes the distance to the waypoint and places the far and close border accordingly.
...
..
...
the waypoint is behind you, but the aircraft does not take that into account.

This information I think is key.
 

[Machalot]

40 minutes ago, TOViper said:

It seems that when the waypoint is behind the aircraft, the A2 mode shows stuff.

The key point is that it doesn't attempt to scan the waypoint, it just scans at the same range as the waypoint.