Apache wont hold my hover

[Picure]

I am using a FFB G940 Logitech and it seems by each patch, hovering seems to be worse and worse. I wish ED could make the Apache's hover hold similar to the KA50. It seems like the slightest of movements in the joystick would cause the helicopter to drift. For us FFB users, it's impossible to have a perfect center and also we are unable to set a deadzone as it will screw with the FFB system. In the video, I am not touching my stick, the aircraft is within 5kts and still, it drifts away. 

One side note: This video is filmed on the Rotorheads server where there was 2m/s of wind at the altitude I was in. When I try hovering in the instant action mission, it seems fine. The aircraft will hold. It feels like the aircraft has more of a dampening effect when I hit ATT hold during a hover in SP instant action.

 

Edited August 2, 2023 by Picure

[Zyll]

Honestly, I thought it was just me. I too feel that attitude hold works better in SP than it does in MP, but I always imagined it was something about the mission itself.

Zyll @ TAW

[martinistripes]

I too feel that the autopilot channels are weak. Obviously no idea they are in the real aircraft but, both altitude and attitude hold are not effective enough to allow you to take your hands off the stick for more than a few seconds. George seems to hold it perfectly still when you switch seats. I also get often get sudden roll to the right when cruising at ~80 - 100 kts. Again not sure if this is normal behaviour.

If these are both real behaviour then, I will learn to live with it.

[Floyd1212]

If you are not using a FFB stick, and if your controls are of sufficient quality (or maybe with a small deadzone applied to the X & Y axis for a "sloppy" stick) the hold modes should be able to hold the aircraft fine.

The rolling to the right at cruising speeds does not sound normal, either.

You might try loading a short track so the community can take a look and help you troubleshoot your issues.

[Rogue Trooper]

Are all you posters force feedback joysticks users?

Perhaps force feedback at this level of detail just cannot be done without big bucks?

With a standard stick I can drop her into a hover fast, trim her clean to hover and activate auto hover.

In auto hover she drifts a little but corrects nicely and is without doubt realistic to my needs within a very tight firing position.

Or perhaps there is a software correction required that does not kill our standard centering stick inputs.

Edited August 3, 2023 by Rogue Trooper

[martinistripes]

I'm using a stick without springs, so it doesn't recentre when taking my hand off and I'm using the correct trimmer option. No return spring in the pedals either. Don't get me wrong, I can fly it. But need to constantly babysit it with corrections even with the hold modes on.

[Rogue Trooper]

9 minutes ago, martinistripes said:

I'm using a stick without springs, so it doesn't recentre when taking my hand off and I'm using the correct trimmer option. No return spring in the pedals either. Don't get me wrong, I can fly it. But need to constantly babysit it with corrections even with the hold modes on.

My God you are flying the anti Christ itself with that config!

Is Auto hover a nightmare?

Edited August 3, 2023 by Rogue Trooper

[Floyd1212]

Yeah, I can't speak to that control setup.

Maybe ED can chime in and say whether they have Beta Testers using a dry-clutch setup like yours.

One option you might look into is using a program like Joystick Gremlin (or others) that can map your X & Y axis to a virtual joystick axis, then DCS sees the inputs on that virtual joystick.  Then you could setup buttons on your controls to essentially "disconnect" your stick from the game so there are no inputs sent to DCS while ATT Hold is enabled.  Then when you cancel ATT Hold, tell JG to reconnect your axis and you are back in business.

[Picure]

From the video I posted above, you can see that I do have the aircraft in a stable hover within 5kts and in a stable hover attitude. The aircraft still drifts out of the hover and wont correct itself. However this is not the case in single player for me. I feel the hover hold in single player has more of a dampening effect similar (but nowhere close) to the KA50’s hover hold

[martinistripes]

8 hours ago, Rogue Trooper said:

My God you are flying the anti Christ itself with that config!

Is Auto hover a nightmare?

 

In real life, when you trim, the stick doesn't re-centre. Having a conventional stick that re-centres is an abomination when flying a helicopter.

I went MS SWFFB2 > Virpil Mongoose T-50 > MS SWFFB 2 > VKB NXT EVO > VKB NXT EVO (No springs)

[Belphe]

10 hours ago, martinistripes said:

I'm using a stick without springs, so it doesn't recentre when taking my hand off and I'm using the correct trimmer option. No return spring in the pedals either. Don't get me wrong, I can fly it. But need to constantly babysit it with corrections even with the hold modes on.

I'm like you. My setup has no spring either. FFB is ok but I chose to go with dampers and counterweights instead. The cyclic only needs a touch to move and just like the collective, it stays where I leave it. Magnetic trim would be nice, of course but this seems to be a good compromise.

Edited August 4, 2023 by Belphe

[Raptor9]

If Attitude Hold is enabled (in any submode), the hold mode will only engage when the cyclic is within 0.25 inch (0.635 cm) of the force trim reference position, which translates to 2.5% of axis movement in DCS. If the cyclic is beyond this position or if the force trim release is being pressed, Attitude Hold won't engage. In other words, it may be enabled, but it isn't actually trying to hold anything because you are telling the FMC you want to fly it yourself.

[Floyd1212]

Going back to look at the video, it does appear that the white diamond (your stick position) has moved off of the red X (the trim setting) slightly.

After establishing the hover and engaging ATT Hold, are you continuing to move the stick, or does the stick drift off on its own?  Maybe tighten down those dry clutches a bit more?

 

[Picure]

4 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

If Attitude Hold is enabled (in any submode), the hold mode will only engage when the cyclic is within 0.25 inch (0.635 cm) of the force trim reference position, which translates to 2.5% of axis movement in DCS. If the cyclic is beyond this position or if the force trim release is being pressed, Attitude Hold won't engage. In other words, it may be enabled, but it isn't actually trying to hold anything because you are telling the FMC you want to fly it yourself.

Please for the love of god, make an option to for us ffb users who are unable to have a perfect “center” to have more leeway so we can hold the hover hands free. As for my G940, when i trim my cyclic, if i let go, the stick will always ever so slightly move forward a little bit. 

3 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

Going back to look at the video, it does appear that the white diamond (your stick position) has moved off of the red X (the trim setting) slightly.

After establishing the hover and engaging ATT Hold, are you continuing to move the stick, or does the stick drift off on its own?  Maybe tighten down those dry clutches a bit more?

 

I am unable to tighten the FFB stick. And I am not touching the stick in the video. Also, my stick will always ever so slightly fall forwards a little bit after trimming. However, this does not affect the hover hold on the KA50. Just really wish that ED can program an option (maybe in the special options menu) for the user to choose the hover hold “deadzone” amount for people who have joysticks like mine. 

[Raptor9]

56 minutes ago, Picure said:

make an option to for us ffb users who are unable to have a perfect “center” to have more leeway so we can hold the hover hands free.

This has already been requested internally, but I have no news to share unfortunately. For now, this is the current logic of it in game.

56 minutes ago, Picure said:

However, this does not affect the hover hold on the KA50.

This is because the Ka-50 flight computer does not have force trim "breakout" values like the AH-64D does. Its autopilot's Hover mode will actively fight pilot inputs for as long as it is enabled and the force trim ("trimmer") is not pressed. However, the AH-64D's hold modes will disengage if the either the force trim is pressed or the breakout values are violated.

[Floyd1212]

1 hour ago, Picure said:

I am unable to tighten the FFB stick. And I am not touching the stick in the video. Also, my stick will always ever so slightly fall forwards a little bit after trimming. However, this does not affect the hover hold on the KA50. Just really wish that ED can program an option (maybe in the special options menu) for the user to choose the hover hold “deadzone” amount for people who have joysticks like mine.

Apologies.  I was getting your posts and martinistripes confused.

One last suggestion for your FFB situation: What if you were to let your stick fall forward after you take your hands off of it, and then tap trim again with a bind on the keyboard?  Would this reposition the red X under the white diamond, or would this then update some feedback to the stick and it would simply fall forward a bit from the new position?

Not knowing how the G940 works internally, is there no way to service or modify the internals to tighten up the mechanism?

[Picure]

1 minute ago, Floyd1212 said:

Apologies.  I was getting your posts and martinistripes confused.

One last suggestion for your FFB situation: What if you were to let your stick fall forward after you take your hands off of it, and then tap trim again with a bind on the keyboard?  Would this reposition the red X under the white diamond, or would this then update some feedback to the stick and it would simply fall forward a bit from the new position?

Not knowing how the G940 works internally, is there no way to service or modify the internals to tighten up the mechanism?

No apologies needed

 

yes, if i trim again without holding the stick, the stick will fall forward from the new trimmed position (due to the weight of the stick and the slight loose center of the joystick). I have also cranked up the “spring strength” up to 150%

[Zyll]

Sounds like a dynamic deadzone is needed. This can be done by the end user using vjoy, freepie and a little coding expertise, but really it sounds like something that the joystick should be doing to improve the "settling" point.

Zyll @ TAW

[pii]

On 8/2/2023 at 3:33 PM, Zyll said:

Honestly, I thought it was just me. I too feel that attitude hold works better in SP than it does in MP, but I always imagined it was something about the mission itself.

Zyll @ TAW
 

the whole FM seems very sloppy lately, making it hard to hover and take off without it rocking like a boat and drifting around. Hoping they get it right soon. But even with the current FM it is my fav Module 

[Picure]

8 hours ago, pii said:

the whole FM seems very sloppy lately, making it hard to hover and take off without it rocking like a boat and drifting around. Hoping they get it right soon. But even with the current FM it is my fav Module 

I would say this the the module that I love to hate

[Picure]

Ok, I got to fly the Apache again today and I learnt something new about the Apache’s control indicator. It turns out as long as I have the blue box (4 corners only), the helicopter will automatically hover and hold as long as I let the SAS do it’s thing. I think before I understood what the blue box means, I was fighting the SAS resulting in the box appearing and disappearing. 
 

To my understanding, a full box means attitude hold when flying en route, a dashed box means attitude hold within 20kts? (Not sure about this one) and a box with just four corners means hover hold has initiated and you may go hands free. 
 

After understanding this, I found that the hover hold is actually pretty strong. But you have to hold it first.

[Raptor9]

49 minutes ago, Picure said:

To my understanding, a full box means attitude hold when flying en route, a dashed box means attitude hold within 20kts? (Not sure about this one) and a box with just four corners means hover hold has initiated and you may go hands free.

From the open beta changelog on April 13:

If the blue indicator is not displayed, the hold mode is not engaged and affecting the flight controls, even if the hold mode itself is enabled. A more detailed description of each is in the Quickstart manual.

[MAXsenna]

@Picure
I'm gonna add some RC dampers to my MS FFB2. Others have done it with great success.
Haven't touched the Apache for 2 years or so because my computer doesn't like it, but I see the need to take your hands of the stick, and the Ka-50 works fine. But I understand it works differently like Raptor explained.
In the Huey, and now the fabulous new FM in the Gazelle. Prefer to fly them with the magnetic break off anyway. In the Huey there's no need for hands off anyway, and the systems in the Gazelle are so simple I can easily hover with one hand and plink tanks with the other in a hover, even if I prefer to do it without a hover.
The Mi-8 is the same as the Huey, except I don't know how to turn the break off, but this is so stable I can almost trim it to hands off while flying. Pretty same with the Hind, but really no hover with it as well if using Peterson.

Cheers!

PS: If ever a dynamic deadzone for FFB/non-centering will be considered. PLEASE make it optional.

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[DD_Friar]

Apologies for asking what might be a simple question this late into the thread, but have you checked in the Specials menu the setting for the type of stick you have.

There is auto centre (?) or one that says "FFB friendly"

Again, apologies if I have missed the point of your issue.

Friar

[Picure]

13 hours ago, DD_Friar said:

Apologies for asking what might be a simple question this late into the thread, but have you checked in the Specials menu the setting for the type of stick you have.

There is auto centre (?) or one that says "FFB friendly"

Again, apologies if I have missed the point of your issue.

Friar

No need to apologize  

i am using ffb friendly.