Mirage F1 - Dogfight

[Skyron]

Heya all,

I got hooked with  the Mirage F1 lately, and I tried to do some stuff here and there.

I understand that this is still early access and I found this module to be actually very nice and engaging (Both models)

But - 

Is this flight model some kind of accurate right now? or is it planned to change significantly in the future.

I am feeling it veeery heavy(Even naked with half fuel) - and i don't thing it can dogfight at it should be , it is very dead at low speed, and it should not be that much.

What you think?

 

[Rudel_chw]

18 minutes ago, Skyron said:

What you think?

Its an interceptor, not a dogfighter… use it on BVR, not at close range.

[Skyron]

1 minute ago, Rudel_chw said:

Its an interceptor, not a dogfighter… use it on BVR, not at close range.

Hey Rudel,

Thanks for your answer , i have managed to find my way to work things out to counter these above that i write with varius tactics - but that's not the case of this topic.

Thanks!

[Bremspropeller]

It has a relatively high wing-loading and it has roundabout 80%'ish more internal fuel than a MiG-21. It also has about one ton more thrust at military power and roundabout the same thrust in burner as the MiG-21 (emergency regime not considered). At 8000RPM (that's roughly 95%) and clean'ish you'll hit roundabout 600KIAS on the deck, which is insanely fast. You'll scratch the Mach at >7500RPM at high altitude, clean.

Keep your speed above 450 KIAS/ Mach .9 and try to sustain energy. It's not a one-circle fighter like the MiG, but you can usually scissor pretty well in it. As long as you baby the engine. The turn-rate is relatively constatnt throughout the envelope, thanks to the combat flaps. You can also pull the other guy into the sight pretty well for a snap-shot.

It's an easy jet to operate, but it's probably the hardest jet to fly well. Yet.

[fausete]

Hi, this has been discussed in-depth before.

Essentially the current behaviour is approved by SME with thousands of hours in the plane and verifiable by the performance data. Some errors here and there might still be present (and the behaviour at very high AoA and with asymmetric payloads will be reviewed). But, especially for subsonic speeds, we are confident that the model is very accurate.

Some tips/clarifications: the F1 can carry a lot of fuel for its size, so I'd recommend not dogfighting unless you're below half full. It also likes to stay fast. It's possible to outrate other contemporary fighters but only with low fuel and keeping the speed high. Disengaging and extending to search for more favourable fight conditions also works quite well.

Edited August 24, 2023 by fausete

[CrazyGman]

 

On 8/24/2023 at 5:12 AM, Skyron said:

Heya all,

I got hooked with  the Mirage F1 lately, and I tried to do some stuff here and there.

I understand that this is still early access and I found this module to be actually very nice and engaging (Both models)

But - 

Is this flight model some kind of accurate right now? or is it planned to change significantly in the future.

I am feeling it veeery heavy(Even naked with half fuel) - and i don't thing it can dogfight at it should be , it is very dead at low speed, and it should not be that much.

What you think?

 

Yes she is heavy. She is a big aircraft compared to the F-5 and MiG-21 with a relatively underpowered engine when it comes to wet thrust (dry thrust is actually pretty good) she gets her good speed from good aerodynamics (unless you thought the cockpit front visibility was just there to make life more challenging) it also doesn't help that she carries speed well and there is a narrow margin where you have to fly her where you aren't carrying too much speed but you are also not bleeding too much speed, as she is both hard to slow down and speed up. this is much narrower then in the MiG-21 and espessially the F-5 where you are fine for quite a while..until your not, with the F-5 able to point it's nose at will up the point where you go below 300 knot (just be gentler at high speed with the wings). And the MiG 21 slowing down with next to no effort, and then just muscling through with afterburner to get speed back, and using take-off flaps to float like a kite 

Also from a psychological standpoint if you are doing serious slow speed dogfighting with her the alarms will be screaming at you the entire time, and simple fact, if you are going against an opponent that is half decent, unless they just let you gun them in the back when you win the rate fight they are going to bring you slow to try to force an overshoot, so you need to get used to using combat flaps, your airbrake, and most important your rudder for low speed manuvers and your aircraft alarms yelling at you the whole time.

Edited August 27, 2023 by CrazyGman

[jaguara5]

On 8/24/2023 at 2:59 PM, fausete said:

Hi, this has been discussed in-depth before.

Essentially the current behaviour is approved by SME with thousands of hours in the plane and verifiable by the performance data. Some errors here and there might still be present (and the behaviour at very high AoA and with asymmetric payloads will be reviewed). But, especially for subsonic speeds, we are confident that the model is very accurate.

Some tips/clarifications: the F1 can carry a lot of fuel for its size, so I'd recommend not dogfighting unless you're below half full. It also likes to stay fast. It's possible to outrate other contemporary fighters but only with low fuel and keeping the speed high. Disengaging and extending to search for more favourable fight conditions also works quite well.

 

According to the declassified real libyan F1 manual (several pages of that are already posted here a lot of times) there is an uncontrollable wing rocking between 20 - 22 degr. ''nose up'' (assume it's AoA) with combat flaps selected.  Is this currently modeled?  Also, i currently moddeled the first part, where it says that above 20 'nose up'' pulling the stick aft wont increase anymore the turn rate? 

null

Edited October 2, 2023 by jaguara5

[Bremspropeller]

They said they were happy with the FM apart from some tweaks in the high AoA department. I suspect they're meaning the wingrocking. The flat lift line seems to be there. Some patches farter back, it wasn't and you could yank her around a lot more at high AoA.

Edited October 2, 2023 by Bremspropeller