Oh yeah, F-104 is coming! Which one we are going to have?

[GUFA]

7 hours ago, 303_Kermit said:

These discussion was solved a long time ago. Before even we were born. I don't say, that gun is better than missile, but I say that gun is necessary. Lack of gun is a serious lack. F-4B once he shoot sidewinder quickly disengaged. F-8 and F-100 quite the contrary. That was the difference.

My regards. Nice discussion here

So how many A to A gun kills have been recorded since Vietnam? From Gulf of Sidra,El Dorado Canyon, The Iraq and Yugoslavic conflicts???

Answer: Bugger All: 2 credited to A10s in 91, And in Desert Storm  F-15 Eagles absolutley reaped with AIM 7 Sparrows over Sidewinders & guns.

I did not find any data to support widespread gun kill statistics in 1982 Bekaa Valley. The only comment stated that most kills went to F-15 and F-16s. (sure as hell does not support the Gun kill argument now does it?)

Looked at the 1979 Sino-Vietnam war in hopes of finding significant "gun kills", but found no data what so ever on any of the A to A that occured.

The only Data I could find to support  decent "Gun Kill  numbers" was the 1980 Iran-Iraq war. Even then Numbers show that Gun kills were mainly recorded against helicopter and other slow moving & manoever poor aircraft.

IRIAF F-14 Kill Data of the conflict records 1 Gun Kill. And that 1 kill is statically insignificant against the list of (possibly) 50+ kills credited to the Tomcat's missiles.

So your whole argument that the the Gun is neccesary (for A to A) becomes quite shaky post Vietnam and completely unsupportable after El Dorado Canyon. I dont know about you but I would like my Starfighter to remain useful into later life not just a 60s gunfighter!

BTW all these people Bitching about a gunless F-104's, How are you going to handle flying RAF/USN F4s?

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by GUFA

[Stackup]

2 hours ago, GUFA said:

BTW all these people Bitching about a gunless F-104's, How are you going to handle flying RAF/USN F4s?

They'll strap gunpods to them, operationally realistic or not.  Some people prefer the earlier versions of the F-104 like the A and C versus the newer versions.  This also plays a big part in wanting a gun because those versions had them.  How many F-104's didn't have the gun?  Just the two-seater and S versions from what I'm reading, so why get mad at the people who would like the variant we get (which is already confirmed to have the M61 per the announcement making this argument pointless) to have a gun?

[bies]

For me the gun is F-104's most important weapon. All Starfighters taking part in combat or crysis US F-104C over Vietnam, Taiwanese F-104A over the strait, Pakistani F-104A over Kashmir, German F-104G during Berlin Crisis were equipped with a gun. Pakistani put them to good use.

Compared to gun-less 1960s MiG-21s, F-4 Phantoms - Starfighter with its 6 barreled revolver was awesome. When F-104 entered service Vulcan gun was brand new invention and the best gun in the world. During late 1950s/early 1960s gun was still among the most important and reliable weapon.

Plus it's just more satisfying to strafe in supersonics slashing attack some MiG, compared to firing the missile.

Edited August 30, 2023 by bies

[Bremspropeller]

36 minutes ago, bies said:

German F-104G during Berlin Crisis were equipped with a gun.

No such thing. The first full up F-104G Geschwader of the Luftwaffe (JaboG 31 at Nörvenich, west of Cologne) became operational on 20 June 1962. Just one day after a formation of four F-104Fs (WaSLw 10 aircraft) flew into the ground during the final training session for the aerobatic display planned on the 20th. It was somewhat similar to the '82 Thunderbirds Diamond Crash.

All the operational 104s in Germany during the Berlin Crisis were US A or C models, including Guard aircraft. One of those crashed during the takeoff in Ramstein AB the day before, June 18 '62. It was an Arizona Guard A model.

 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2023 by Bremspropeller

[bies]

49 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

The first full up F-104G Geschwader of the Luftwaffe (JaboG 31 at Nörvenich, west of Cologne) became operational on 20 June 1962.

Didn't know that, thx. 

[GUFA]

5 hours ago, Stackup said:

so why get mad at the people who would like the variant we get

For a start I not mad because I choose to point out that some customers are not getting a fair shake as regards the exclusion of the "S" model Starfighter. What is wrong with pointing out that.

A.Apart from the UK, Italian Starfighters actually had to carry out intercept ("Air Superiority") missions, the rest of Western Europe didn't. (Thank you USAF F-4!!!)

B. Gun Kills are considerably fewer "Post Vietnam" so you are effectively ignoring 30 years of service of the F-104 and the history of Air Warfare. I would actually like to design missions around the "S" Model and Sparrow.

C.In a couple of years We could very well be faced with a REDFOR Module list of Sukhoi 11 & 15, Mig 23 & 25 + Shenyang J-8 up against one(1) US BVR Fighter design for the mid 60s- to Mid 70s. For me having a exellent affordable US alternative to the Phantom at least add a interesting choice for countless Multiplayer scenarioS gameplay. I suspect I'm not alone...

Sorry cant see the Exclusion of the "S" as being completely parochial on Aerges part, and it isn't like they couldn't do the "S" now is it?

So for the sake of Italian, Turk & many other DCS fans

"Do it Right and add the S".

[GUFA]

 

6 hours ago, Stackup said:

They'll strap gunpods to them, operationally realistic or not.

In Addendum: The SUU-23 gun pod that F-4s carried was not particully effective for A to A being quite inaccurate, but were mainly used for ground attack.

Edited August 31, 2023 by GUFA

[Stackup]

18 minutes ago, GUFA said:

For a start I not mad because I choose to point out that some customers are not getting a fair shake as regards the exclusion of the "S" model Starfighter. What is wrong with pointing out that.

A.Apart from the UK, Italian Starfighters actually had to carry out intercept ("Air Superiority") missions, the rest of Western Europe didn't. (Thank you USAF F-4!!!)

B. Gun Kills are considerably fewer "Post Vietnam" so you are effectively ignoring 30 years of service of the F-104 and the history of Air Warfare. I would actually like to design missions around the "S" Model and Sparrow.

C.In a couple of years We could very well be faced with a REDFOR Module list of Sukhoi 11 & 15, Mig 23 & 25 + Shenyang J-8 up against one(1) US BVR Fighter design for the mid 60s- to Mid 70s. For me having a exellent affordable US alternative to the Phantom at least add a interesting choice for countless Multiplayer scenarioS gameplay. I suspect I'm not alone...

Sorry cant see the Exclusion of the "S" as being completely parochial on Aerges part, and it isn't like they couldn't do the "S" now is it?

So for the sake of Italian, Turk & many other DCS fans

"Do it Right and add the S".

Nothing wrong with stating your own opinion. 

I wasn't saying whether the gun is good or bad, just that some people would prefer it because they would like an earlier version.  Did you ever stop to think that I and others might actually be interested in simulating Vietnam?  And therefore would be more interested in earlier versions of those airplanes that served during that time such as the early F-104, F-4, F-5, F-8, A-7, MiG-21, etc.?  That's the same reasoning to you wanting an F-104S because your country used it, not "ignoring 30 years of history".  Just simulating a different part of it.  It's also the same reason Aerges is likely to make a Spanish Air Force F-104G.  They are a Spanish company and want to bring their country's version of aircraft to DCS.

21 minutes ago, GUFA said:

In Addendum: The SUU-23 gun pod that F-4s carried was not particully effective for A to A being quite inaccurate, but were mainly used for ground attack.

So what?  You asked how people would cope with not having a gun on their F-4.  I responded by saying exactly what they will do.  They will mount gunpods if they want a gun, it really is as simple as that because DCS is a game and historical realism is in the hands of the mission makers.

[GUFA]

1 hour ago, Stackup said:

Did you ever stop to think that I and others might actually be interested in simulating Vietnam?

 

1 hour ago, Stackup said:

That's the same reasoning to you wanting an F-104S because your country used it,

Did you ever think that I am not Italian? or have centre European ancestry for that matter? Notice you didn't even take into consideration about using the "S" in a User designed scenario/story!!! (even an a Alt history Indo-china, Taiwan, Indo-Pak AD infinitem)

I can guarantee you I have.

"MY Country probably has more to do Vietnam war than many others on this thread. (Hint: I'm born & bred in an ANZUS country...)

1 hour ago, Stackup said:

They are a Spanish company and want to bring their country's version of aircraft to DCS.

So what, Aerges is already doing non Spanish variants of the F-1...

1 hour ago, Stackup said:

So what?  You asked how people would cope with not having a gun on their F-4.  I responded by saying exactly what they will do.  They will mount gunpods if they want a gun, it really is as simple as that because DCS is a game and historical realism is in the hands of the mission makers.

Yet as an aspiring mission maker Aerges puts a limit on what I can do with my creation because "Spain didn't fly it".

Edited August 31, 2023 by GUFA

[Stackup]

51 minutes ago, GUFA said:

Did you ever think that I am not Italian? or have centre European ancestry for that matter? Notice you didn't even take into consideration about using the "S" in a User designed scenario/story!!! (even an a Alt history Indo-china, Taiwan, Indo-Pak AD infinitem)

You specifically called out Italian and Turkish DCS fans in your post, what was I supposed to think?

 

52 minutes ago, GUFA said:

So what, Aerges is already doing non Spanish variants of the F-1...

As full fidelity modules? Do tell.

 

52 minutes ago, GUFA said:

Yet as an aspiring mission maker Aerges puts a limit on what I can do with my creation because "Spain didn't fly it".

Uh, yeah it's called being a company and making the products that they want to.  They don't have to pander to whiny people on the internet.  I'd like an F-104C to fly around but I'm not complaining about them not making it because we don't always get what we want and crying about it won't solve anything.

 

53 minutes ago, GUFA said:

"MY Country probably has more to do Vietnam war than many others on this thread. (Hint: I'm born & bred in an ANZUS country...)

Same...?

[GUFA]

1 hour ago, Stackup said:

You specifically called out Italian and Turkish DCS fans in your post, what was I supposed to think?

Isn't that your bad...

1 hour ago, Stackup said:

As full fidelity modules? Do tell.

I'm pretty sure adding/subtracting (mostly weapons) to the existing module shouldn't be that hard. And Spain ordered French builds with minor changes (Sidewinder). So there wasn't a specific "Spain" Variant, they even bought some from Qatar.

2 hours ago, Stackup said:

Uh, yeah it's called being a company and making the products that they want to.  They don't have to pander to whiny people on the internet.  I'd like an F-104C to fly around but I'm not complaining about them not making it because we don't always get what we want and crying about it won't solve anything.

Since when does any company go around flipping the bird at its customers, iI mean thats a VEAO trick isn't it And having a Charlie Model would be welcomed by me

[MAXsenna]

6 hours ago, GUFA said:

A.Apart from the UK, Italian Starfighters actually had to carry out intercept ("Air Superiority") missions, the rest of Western Europe didn't. (Thank you USAF F-4!!!)

You need to brush up on your geography skills. Why do you think we're getting a Kola map? During the Cold War it was the Soviets, today they're Russians.

Who did the Italian's intercept? Yugoslavs? Libyans? And the Brits? It's a long way from the North Cape down to the UK.  

[Lurker]

Ahh the Widowmaker. A plane so renowned for it's ability to take it's pilots lives, it earned that dreaded moniker. Figures that it would be popular among keyboard jockeys. 

Edited August 31, 2023 by Lurker

[GUFA]

57 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

You need to brush up on your geography skills. Why do you think we're getting a Kola map? During the Cold War it was the Soviets, today they're Russians.

Who did the Italian's intercept? Yugoslavs? Libyans? And the Brits? It's a long way from the North Cape down to the UK.

Tell me do you really think tha F-104g with rear aspect Sidewinder and guns are going to do the lions share of Counter Air over the Finnmark Central Europe or the Sea of Japan? Come on lets be truthful in the 60s-mid-late 70s thats a job for USAF Phantoms, Forward Deployed to Bodo, Evenes or Bardufoss and later CONUS based F-15 units. leaving the F-104g availble for strike. And you really think Yugoslavia is going to block REDAIR from hitting the South European theater? Or Gaddafi would not of offered forces or basing in the event of a Hot war?

Edited August 31, 2023 by GUFA

[MAXsenna]

32 minutes ago, GUFA said:

Tell me do you really think tha F-104g with rear aspect Sidewinder and guns are going to do the lions share of Counter Air over the Finnmark Central Europe or the Sea of Japan? Come on lets be truthful in the 60s-mid-late 70s thats a job for USAF Phantoms, Forward Deployed to Bodo, Evenes or Bardufoss and later CONUS based F-15 units. leaving the F-104g availble for strike. And you really think Yugoslavia is going to block REDAIR from hitting the South European theater? Or Gaddafi would not of offered forces or basing in the event of a Hot war?

 

Ah, I see. You wrote intercept. Like @Stackup suggested, is it our fault that you write in such a way that we misunderstand you? No, it isn't. 

Btw. You seem pretty mad for incomprehensible reason.

Have a nice day! 

 

 

[GUFA]

2 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Ah, I see. You wrote intercept. Like @Stackup suggested, is it our fault that you write in such a way that we misunderstand you? No, it isn't.

Stackup made the assumption I was Italian, and his assumption was wrong

I get you are upset that I am making a robust case for inclusion for the "S", Ring 1800 "FEEL BETTER"

[Ramstein]

The German air force flew them into our airfield once in a while.. hope they model the unburned fuel exploding when running the engine run up and takeoff!

Edited August 31, 2023 by Ramstein

[GUFA]

8 minutes ago, Ramstein said:

The German air force flew them into our airfield once in a while.. hope they model the unburned fuel exploding when running the engine up and takeoff!

Is that before or after they RUD

[MAXsenna]

Stackup made the assumption I was Italian, and his assumption was wrong
I get you are upset that I am making a robust case for inclusion for the "S", Ring 1800 "FEEL BETTER"

Why would I be upset? I want everything!
To be honest, I thought you might be Italian too. You for sure don't come off as being from down under. So what?

EDIT: What does "Ring 1800" mean? "Call 1800"?

Comm skills baby, comm skills!

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Bozon]

17 hours ago, GUFA said:

So how many A to A gun kills have been recorded since Vietnam? From Gulf of Sidra,El Dorado Canyon, The Iraq and Yugoslavic conflicts???

Answer: Bugger All: 2 credited to A10s in 91, And in Desert Storm  F-15 Eagles absolutley reaped with AIM 7 Sparrows over Sidewinders & guns.

I did not find any data to support widespread gun kill statistics in 1982 Bekaa Valley. The only comment stated that most kills went to F-15 and F-16s. (sure as hell does not support the Gun kill argument now does it?)

Looked at the 1979 Sino-Vietnam war in hopes of finding significant "gun kills", but found no data what so ever on any of the A to A that occured.

The only Data I could find to support  decent "Gun Kill  numbers" was the 1980 Iran-Iraq war. Even then Numbers show that Gun kills were mainly recorded against helicopter and other slow moving & manoever poor aircraft.

IRIAF F-14 Kill Data of the conflict records 1 Gun Kill. And that 1 kill is statically insignificant against the list of (possibly) 50+ kills credited to the Tomcat's missiles.

So your whole argument that the the Gun is neccesary (for A to A) becomes quite shaky post Vietnam and completely unsupportable after El Dorado Canyon. I dont know about you but I would like my Starfighter to remain useful into later life not just a 60s gunfighter!

BTW all these people Bitching about a gunless F-104's, How are you going to handle flying RAF/USN F4s?

 

 

During Yom Kipur 1973 war a significant fraction of the kills by the Israeli air force were still with cannons, divided between Nesher, Mirage III and Phantom F-4E (many gun kills).

During 1982 over the Bakaa valley, most kills were by Shafrir missiles and some Aim-9. Sparrows were used by F-15A and had a small number of kills and were considered as poor. They were highly susceptible to ECM, especially active emitters. Still, a few gun kills happened by F-16A and F-15A - I don’t have an exact breakdown. The Israeli air force would not accept a fighter without a cannon. Maybe in 2023 things are different.

The F-104 proved that you don’t need a cannon if you do not engage the enemy. Especially in the 60’s & 70’s.

[Bozon]

Here I found this article:

https://csbaonline.org/uploads/documents/Air-to-Air-Report-.pdf
 

It has the breakdown of kills in air combat around the world over the decades. There are strong differences between their air forces. While in 1972 the vast majority of American kills were with missiles, the Israeli air force was still getting 60% of the kills in 1972-73 with cannons. In absolute numbers, the Israelis had more gun kills during this period than all the American air to air kills in Vietnam during this period, combined - so this heavily skews the global averages.

[Bremspropeller]

There were more 104s besides the figher sub-type S* variants that had their guns removed or  replaced:

- the first A models didn't have a gun, since the guns weren't ready

- a lot of CFs, RFs and F-104Gs had no guns, but an aux tank instead**

- none of the two-seaters had a gun

 

 

 

* Seems like one italian unit (18° Gruppo) at least for some time flew the S fighter-bomber in air-defence, so they had the gun and four Lima Sidewinders as a normal loadout.

**In fact, initially all CFs and most of the 104Gs (if fighter-bombers and paricularily in the strike-role) had no guns. The F-104G "AWX" sub-type (all weather fighter) had their guns installed at the beginning.

[algherghezghez]

1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

There were more 104s besides the figher sub-type S* variants that had their guns removed or  replaced:

- the first A models didn't have a gun, since the guns weren't ready

- a lot of CFs, RFs and F-104Gs had no guns, but an aux tank instead**

- none of the two-seaters had a gun

 

 

 

* Seems like one italian unit (18° Gruppo) at least for some time flew the S fighter-bomber in air-defence, so they had the gun and four Lima Sidewinders as a normal loadout.

**In fact, initially all CFs and most of the 104Gs (if fighter-bombers and paricularily in the strike-role) had no guns. The F-104G "AWX" sub-type (all weather fighter) had their guns installed at the beginning.

Where did you take the info for the F-104S CB used by the 18 in the fighter role? I’ve never heard about this. If you took this from photographic evidence it may be from the time when they had G and where a recce group 

[Bremspropeller]

4 minutes ago, algherghezghez said:

Where did you take the info for the F-104S CB used by the 18 in the fighter role? I’ve never heard about this. If you took this from photographic evidence it may be from the time when they had G and where a recce group 

Coccarde Tricolori Speciale 2 "F-104S" pg.52/53 - memories of Col. Luigi Piccolo

"The Aspide could have been a truly great missile if it could have been supported by a truly capable radar. In reality, it would be the 18° Gruppo that was the best off in the second half of the eighties, as - having CBO-configured aircraft - it could fly with the Vulcan cannon and four AIM-9L."

Might be a misunderstanding - it doesn't actually say they were flying air-defence, just their fighter-bombers had a better setup for the real-world air defence with the radar being lacking in performance. and therefore the Aspide not being able to perform up to it's capabilities.

[GUFA]

3 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Why would I be upset? I want everything!
To be honest, I thought you might be Italian too. You for sure don't come off as being from down under. So what?

EDIT: What does "Ring 1800" mean? "Call 1800"?

No not a drop Italian blood but worked along side, have had good friends in the Aussie Italian comunity, particularly from SW Western Australia.Just a good old  Aussie Ranga

And yes I was joking with the ring 1800 quip.

2 hours ago, Bozon said:

During Yom Kipur 1973 war a significant fraction of the kills by the Israeli air force were still with cannons, divided between Nesher, Mirage III and Phantom F-4E (many gun kills).

These are the key takeaways that I found compelling

 On page 16 the author comments

 Between January 1970 and the beginning of the Yom Kippur War in October 1973,
the IAF claimed 112 victories. Forty of these were credited to missiles and sixty-five to guns.
The thirteen Arab victory claims were all credited to missiles. The big shift came during the
Yom Kippur War when the IAF scored seventy-nine of its 164 claimed victories with missiles
and only eighty-three with guns. By the close of the decade, the IAF claimed an additional six-
teen kills—eleven credited to missiles and only three to guns.
 

This Graph show the dispersion of kills between 65-2002:

As Bozon points out Yom Kippur was probably a major contribution to those gun kill numbers 1970-80 holding up. Notice the rear aspect AAM line in red. Thats probably a hefty addition from  Shafrir 2.

Also this comment from page 24

. Taking a
longer perspective, the data shows the continued utility of guns in aerial combat through the
1970s and their rapid eclipse by missiles beginning in the 1980s.38 In fact, the use of guns in
aerial combat virtually ended after the Yom Kippur War in late 1973. Out of 498 victory claims
since that time, 440 (88 percent) have been credited to AAMs and only thirty to guns.39 The
last gun kill of one jet combat aircraft by another occurred in May of 1988 when an Iranian
F-4E downed an Iraqi Su-22M with 20 mm cannon fire.

also this observation from page 22:

 

The first thing to note is that aerial combat was still quite common during the 1980s. The
ongoing conflict between Israel and Syria over Lebanon and the Falkland Islands War are
widely known examples. The bulk of claimed victories, however, stem from the long and bitter
Iran-Iraq War that raged for most of the decade.34 There are relatively few good sources on the
34 During the Iran-Iraq War there were 290 confirmed aerial victories on both sides.
22 CSBA | TRENDS IN AIR-TO-AIR COMBAT
aerial dimension of this conflict, but those that exist indicate that the Islamic Republic of Iran
Air Force (IRIAF) succeeded in maintaining a significant number of the F-4, F-5, and F-14
fighters it received from the United States during the 1970s in working order. Their crews, all
trained in the United States, were credited with over two hundred aerial victories including
sixty-two kills by F-14 crews using AIM-54 Phoenix missiles.35 The second noteworthy aspect
of 1980s aerial combat is the massive decline in gun use. During the 1970s over two hundred
aerial victories were credited to guns, but during the 1980s the total declined to just twenty-six
(an 87 percent decline). This was accompanied by a similarly large increase in the proportion
of victories credited to all aspect missiles (including the AIM-9L) and true BVR missiles such
as the AIM-54 and improved versions of the AIM-7.

 

Finally there is table showing the improvement in performance of AIM-9 & AIM-7 from Rolling Thunder 65 to Desert Storm

So guns are fun, but after Yom Kippur increasingly Irrelevent to the Air to Air Fight, FACT. But were meant to use "Gunfighter: Starfighter in scenarios  up to three decades later...

Anyway good read suggest everyone reads it.

Edited August 31, 2023 by GUFA