Tutorials for working with Jester AA & BVR

[markturner1960]

So up until now, I have been concentrating on basic airmanship in the F14, but am now starting to look at Air to Air. There are not any specific training missions and a You tube search has not turned up much. I found a Deephack one here:  

which is good for what it covers, but I would like to know about how best to use Jester in the BVR area, what he can and cant do, how best to interact, etc. As it seems its kind of assumed that as Pilot, you dont touch the radar. And the training missions assume you are the RIO......

 

Thanks

Edited September 4, 2023 by markturner1960

[The_Tau]

This is the most spread "myth" about Jester. That he will do everything for you. Unfortunately that is not the case. 

Treat him as novice RIO, so you have to tell him what to do.

In fact he just pushes buttons, he will not actively scan surrounding and getting lock for you. He can only lock the tracks AWG9 sees, no track = "no can do man!". You have to actively tell him to what radar elevation set the scan, check the tracks, correlate with datalink or wait for IFF marks if in TWS, and then tell Jester which track to lock. So in fact you have to look at TID repeater all the time.  Only exception is "lock specific track"  command which allows you to lock datalink only tracks even if they are outside current radar volume scan (but within AWG9 gimbal). I strongly recommend to either remember number of Jester menu to enter that command or use 3rd party software like voice attack as it really allows Jester to acquire locks in split second. 

 

Note that AWG9 limitations still apply so radar will struggle getting lock on notching or cold bandits if they are in AWG9 filters. 

[MAXsenna]

4 hours ago, The_Tau said:

This is the most spread "myth" about Jester. That he will do everything for you. Unfortunately that is not the case. 

Treat him as novice RIO, so you have to tell him what to do.

In fact he just pushes buttons, he will not actively scan surrounding and getting lock for you. He can only lock the tracks AWG9 sees, no track = "no can do man!". You have to actively tell him to what radar elevation set the scan, check the tracks, correlate with datalink or wait for IFF marks if in TWS, and then tell Jester which track to lock. So in fact you have to look at TID repeater all the time.  Only exception is "lock specific track"  command which allows you to lock datalink only tracks even if they are outside current radar volume scan (but within AWG9 gimbal). I strongly recommend to either remember number of Jester menu to enter that command or use 3rd party software like voice attack as it really allows Jester to acquire locks in split second. 

 

Note that AWG9 limitations still apply so radar will struggle getting lock on notching or cold bandits if they are in AWG9 filters. 

Pretty sure what is what Mark is really asking for is a tutorial on how to bay sit Jester.
I've been looking myself, but no joy so far, and I'm using VAICOM.
I have luck sometimes, but I should probably look into how that RIO thing works to know what I want and when to have Jester do it. I have him scan high/low, center/left/right. But I can never find anything ever, unless the bandit is right it front of us and Jester sees him first. Then I can successfully make him lock it.

[Callsign JoNay]

8 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

I've been looking myself, but no joy so far, and I'm using VAICOM.
I have luck sometimes, but I should probably look into how that RIO thing works to know what I want and when to have Jester do it. I have him scan high/low, center/left/right. But I can never find anything ever, unless the bandit is right it front of us and Jester sees him first.

Are you using the "scan sector" command in VAICOM? That's probably my favorite feature.

[MAXsenna]

Are you using the "scan sector" command in VAICOM? That's probably my favorite feature.

Hmmm, I believe I've tried it... I should revisit it?

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk

[Karon]

13 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

 I should probably look into how that RIO thing works to know what I want and when to have Jester do it

That's the most important thing. Consider Jester as an interface: *you* are the RIO, Jester provides a bunch of shortcuts to get what you need but that's it.
Later, as you get more familiar with the avionics, you can start to rely more on Jester, as you will know what it is doing.

Btw, I wouldn't fly without a human RIO, and it is vastly more efficient to fly from the backseat or switch between the two seats. The DDD is simply too important for SA and BVR.

[markturner1960]

Thanks, looks like I need to dive into the RIO aspect of things to better understand the process. But yeah, I was looking for some kind of guide on using Jester in this scenario as max said. I did find some Grim Reapers videos after I posted, which I usually discount as there are generally much better tutorials, and they do actually deal with fairly well. 

By the way, does anyone know where best to look for a summarised description of the functionality of the radar and how to operate it? Found a good Jabbers video and started taking notes, then it occured to me that maybe this had already been done.....? 

Edited September 5, 2023 by markturner1960

[MAXsenna]

Thanks @Karon! Yeah, I understand what it is, but like I wrote, I need to learn how to utilise it, and maybe more importantly. Learn it's limitations. Don't think I've actually really been in the back seat yet, as I've focused on startup, AAR and Case 1. (Doesn't help that I can't see the HUD for <profanity> during Case 1s). Have probably done the "Refuel Fight Recover" mission a hundred times or more. And the Tomcat is the only one I need to revisit to brush up on my AAR when tanking from the Viking. Can't wait til we get the new 3D model!  

To be honest I haven't read that manual yet, guess I better about the RIO/Jester part, and the interaction between them. 

@markturner1960, I find the VAICOM manual a good reference for all the Jester commands. 

Cheers! 

 

[Callsign JoNay]

7 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Hmmm, I believe I've tried it... I should revisit it?

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk
 

Yes. For example when you see a lower HAFU Link-4 contact out in front of you, but there's no upper HAFU indicating that the AWG-9 sees it, you can note it's approximate altitude represented by the single digit number connected to the HAFU, and you can approximate it's distance by comparing it to the 20nm dashed lines of the scan limits. Then you can tell Jester exactly where to look by saying something like, "Scan sector angels 10 at 30" for example, and Jester will adjust the antenna elevation to be centered on that spot. The upper half of the HAFU should come right up as long as it's not notching.

It's much better than trying to guess the radar elevation by using the generic elevation commands like "Scan elevation low", which might scan lower than you want or not low enough.

[MAXsenna]

Yes. For example when you see a lower HAFU Link-4 contact out in front of you, but there's no upper HAFU indicating that the AWG-9 sees it, you can note it's approximate altitude represented by the single digit number connected to the HAFU, and you can approximate it's distance by comparing it to the 20nm dashed lines of the scan limits. Then you can tell Jester exactly where to look by saying something like, "Scan sector angels 10 at 30" for example, and Jester will adjust the antenna elevation to be centered on that spot. The upper half of the HAFU should come right up as long as it's not notching.
It's much better than trying to guess the radar elevation by using the generic elevation commands like "Scan elevation low", which might scan lower than you want or not low enough.

Thanks, that's what I thought. But how to you go about when there's no AWACS or datalink? Just scan around like you'd do in a one seater?

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[Callsign JoNay]

1 hour ago, MAXsenna said:

Thanks, that's what I thought. But how to you go about when there's no AWACS or datalink? Just scan around like you'd do in a one seater?

Sent from my MAR-LX1A using Tapatalk
 

I guess you'd have to go off the BRAA call from the AWACS/GCI. Or just keep your scan as wide as possible (RWS mode) until you spot something.

[MAXsenna]

I guess you'd have to go off the BRAA call from the AWACS/GCI. Or just keep your scan as wide as possible (RWS mode) until you spot something.

Obviously, but when there's no AWACS!

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[Karon]

19 hours ago, markturner1960 said:

By the way, does anyone know where best to look for a summarised description of the functionality of the radar and how to operate it? Found a good Jabbers video and started taking notes, then it occured to me that maybe this had already been done.....?

How many hundred pages do you want?

/jk use the manual, it gives you everything you need to start. The AWG-9 has *a lot* of finer details implemented; "normal" short guides summarise way too much and leave out too many important aspects.

 

@MAXsenna AWACS are LINK4 are overrated, I purposely don't use the AI AWACS and often forget to tune LINK4. The AI AWACS is flat-out terrible and cheats, LINK4 is easily saturated, and the AI does not provide the targets you may actually want, resulting in poor awareness. Granted, it is better than nothing, but if you do not use it whilst you are learning, it is better. You have the AWG-9, it sees everything up to 130/150nm with a RIO worth its weight, and it DCS you can afford to open it up to to 130/8b and leave it there, checking the DDD AGC and PDSRCH. So, when you are simply going from point A to point B, switch to the backseat, adjust the DDD and relax. From that display, you can approximate range, elevation, speed, aspect, and you get Vc and azimuth. Not bad, right? When you get through the range where RWS starts to see things, you can switch to the TID, find a target matching your mission objective, commit, perhaps switch to PSRCH or TWS to sort out the angles and, post launch, one eye should be glued on the DDD to determine variations in Vc, which in turn indicate a target changing its aspect.

I hope this makes sense to you, I tried to keep it short. Ask if you anything is not clear!

[MAXsenna]

9 minutes ago, Karon said:

I hope this makes sense to you, I tried to keep it short. Ask if you anything is not clear!

It actually did! Thanks again! Seems I've been looking at this the wrong way. Gotta set me up some scenarios for testing.

Cheers! 

[Karon]

21 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

It actually did! Thanks again! Seems I've been looking at this the wrong way. Gotta set me up some scenarios for testing.

Cheers! 

No worries!

I always recommend starting by something as simple as a target orbiting or race-tracking, with your Tomcat in active pause. This allows you to observe how the avionics presents targets entering and leaving ZDF, MLC and presenting different TA.

[markturner1960]

Thanks Karon, the guide in your sig is pretty amazing, ( just found it!) a LOT of information in there.....

[draconus]

On 9/4/2023 at 11:32 PM, MAXsenna said:

I have him scan high/low

Never use these unless you know specifically that the exact setting will be correct for your case. There are big gaps between the settings. It looks like this:

Use scan alt at range instead. Use the coverage numbers on the left of TID to judge next step higher/lower. Remember these calculated elevation limits apply to the currently set TID range.

If you're going head-to-head the range is closing fast so better set the scan range a step closer than what was expected.

@Karon

Quote

AI AWACS is flat-out terrible and cheats

Can you share your findings?

Edited September 15, 2023 by draconus

[Karon]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

 

@Karon

Can you share your findings?

 

Not really much to share. The cons are plenty, from the black-and-white classification to the lack of depth in the comms, no way to tell it Commit/Target, so information is not focused on what you want to know, no way to have the additional information from it and much more.

For example, in this video, I have three recordings from real-life events (two Gulf of Sidra, and one modern exercise).

In another video, I have the recording from the "double-kill" of an F-15 vs 2xMiG-29, the first time two missiles were supported at the same time and splashed two.
By far, the worst aspect is the precision. It is something similar to the RWR of the F/A-18C that can be used to conduct a full intercept: it is too precise, with no values uncertainty, and instantaneous refresh rate. On the other hand, in real life, we have plenty of cases where controllers lack the capability of providing control accurately enough. In the example above, the one about the F-15, the AWACS did not see the targets initially. I also recall (hopefully correctly) a case in ZA vs Cuba, where the GCI, for one reason or another, caused the loss of one or two Mirage F1.
No one expects this level of interactivity or errors, of course, but a good AIC/GCI implementation is a must for 3rd gen operations, and DCS still uses the same stuff since LOMAC. Hopefully, after MT is polished and finalised, ED can focus on this aspect.

Any way, we are OT here, but this should answer your question.

[draconus]

16 minutes ago, Karon said:

Any way, we are OT here, but this should answer your question.

Thx, to their defense they do respect some range, DF, notching and LOS limitations, even with their own wing in the bank.

[MAXsenna]

4 hours ago, draconus said:

Never use these unless you know specifically that the exact setting will be correct for your case. There are big gaps between the settings. It looks like this:

Use scan alt at range instead. Use the coverage numbers on the left of TID to judge next step higher/lower. Remember these calculated elevation limits apply to the currently set TID range.

If you're going head-to-head the range is closing fast so better set the scan range a step closer than what was expected.

Thank you for the tips. I didn't really mean it literally. Should have written "all over the place", testing the various commands.
But again! Thank you all for the tips. Have setup some simple scenarios, and getting closer to getting the hang of it!

Cheers!

[Karon]

5 hours ago, draconus said:

Thx, to their defense they do respect some range, DF, notching and LOS limitations, even with their own wing in the bank.

Imagine they could see through the terrain

It's a bit of a shame ED is prioritising ATC over AWACS. I mean, you can always pretend that the airfield is unmanned, but a poor controller is problematic for any scenario, especially in SP, where you can't count on humans.

Any way, let's close the OT, I'm happy to carry via PM/Discord if necessary

@MAXsenna Glad to ear that! Shout if you have questions

[bonesvf103]

@MAXsenna beware of the scan low command in VAICOM.  I've noticed that when you do that the top and bottom of the scan (numbers on the lower left of the TID) go to 0 and 0, which is useless.

v6,

boNes

[MAXsenna]

@MAXsenna beware of the scan low command in VAICOM.  I've noticed that when you do that the top and bottom of the scan (numbers on the lower left of the TID) go to 0 and 0, which is useless.
v6,
boNes

Thanks! All tips are very much welcome!

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[draconus]

16 hours ago, bonesvf103 said:

@MAXsenna beware of the scan low command in VAICOM.  I've noticed that when you do that the top and bottom of the scan (numbers on the lower left of the TID) go to 0 and 0, which is useless.

It depends on your altitude and set TID range.

PS. Since the "scan low" sets the antenna to -40^o you'll never be high enough to see any change in the numbers but you're searching for close lower flying target, not anything on the horizon, radar signal will hit the ground a few miles ahead at best.

Edited September 19, 2023 by draconus

[ShinyMikey]

I've made a few videos about this topic.