MFSSB settings for best realism/usability

[VirusAM]

Hi,

I recently purchased a WW f-16ex stick with mfssb base.

In the past I used real simulator FSSB r3, I got rid of it only because I fly many aircraft.

But winwing came with a way cheaper solution which for less then the price includes also a very good grip (RS comes at 650 euro base only including shipping and taxes, WW with the new EU store 450 euros all included).

The winwing solution is quite good honestly, and theoretically it could also be converted into a traditional joystick which moves, but in comparison to the realsimulator it still lacks some solutions, some could be software solvable, others needs hardware solution. I would  like to know if someone came with some interesting solution here.

I applied my previous knowneldge learnt in my RS user experience...so

I did setup different forces for left/right roll (from a famous NASA study it is 8lbs/6lbs so a 133% difference)

So I applied the values visible in the picture below:

I also removed the default settings for deadzone, as I find that the DCS F16 has already a built-in dead zone simulated in the FCS, 0% deadzone would be ideal, but then the axis were not centered anymore, so I found that 5% deadzone is a good compromise as it leaves a good sensibility around the center, but the axis are always centered.

Now, what is missing.

- An easy one fixable by software (@winwing is someone from you in this forum) is the 12° rotation of the axis, in fact due to ergonomic reasons in the real F-16 the sidestick is mounted straight and tilted forward, but the axis are rotated 12° towards the right. Other MFSSB users, with the stick mounted as sidestick) will confirm that if they "move" the stick without watching they will end applying also indesired roll motion (for example when trying to apply full force backward). Realsimulator added the possibility to shift the rotation of the axis, so I think it should be easy for winwing to add.

- the second thing is an hardware limitation, I am talking about the forward tilt and in the past people with thrustmaster warthog/cougar grips came with the solution of a 3d-printed tailpipe for the stick. Realsimulator  also offers such a tailpipe for their grips.

A solution would be to mount the base on an inclined plane but probably it would falsify axis readings...
So Is there some genious here which came with some solution to this?

 

I leave here some references:

NASA flight simulator study 

 

https://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/pdf/88752main_H-2512.pdf

 

Topic on the 12° rotation

https://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=24779

 

Pictures

My settings:

 

Nasa Flight sim gear

Motion forces (break out should be a sort of dead zone)

Sidestick diagram

Edited September 25, 2023 by VirusAM

[prestonflying]

Awesome write up

[Waxi]

To achieve the 12° axis rotation, you could mount the base 12° rotated and then twist the grip so that it is straight before tightening the big nut fixing it to the base.

I am also using asymmetric forces based on the F-16 flight manual someone posted in this forum:

Quote

The real stick has pich up of 25 lbs (11.3398 kg) a pitch down of 16 lbs (7.2 kg) and left and right roll of 17 lbs (7.7 kgs).

Here is my configuration and the thought process behind it:

• Moveable area impact: 6%
  • The Orion 2 non-MFSSB has a maximum deflection of 17°.
  • The Orion 2 MFSSB limits the maximum deflection to 1°.
  • This means that the movable area of the MFSSB corresponds to about 6% = 1°/17° * 100% of the maximum deflection of a normal base.
  • Thus, I set the moveable area impact to 6%.
• Maximum force settings for each axis: When set to 100%, the MFSSB Orion 2 base requires a maximum force of 6 kg. Scaling the reported maximum forces required on the real F-16 stick down to the maximum forces of the Orion 2 MFSSB results in the following settings. After some testing I decided to reduce the maximum force a bit to the values in parenthesis:
  • Pitch up: 100% (90%)
  • Pitch down: 64% (58%)
  • Roll left/right: 68% (58%)

Edited September 29, 2023 by Waxi

[Cowboy10uk]

On 9/29/2023 at 4:02 PM, Waxi said:

To achieve the 12° axis rotation, you could mount the base 12° rotated and then twist the grip so that it is straight before tightening the big nut fixing it to the base.

I am also using asymmetric forces based on the F-16 flight manual someone posted in this forum:

Here is my configuration and the thought process behind it:

• Moveable area impact: 6%
  • The Orion 2 non-MFSSB has a maximum deflection of 17°.
  • The Orion 2 MFSSB limits the maximum deflection to 1°.
  • This means that the movable area of the MFSSB corresponds to about 6% = 1°/17° * 100% of the maximum deflection of a normal base.
  • Thus, I set the moveable area impact to 6%.
• Maximum force settings for each axis: When set to 100%, the MFSSB Orion 2 base requires a maximum force of 6 kg. Scaling the reported maximum forces required on the real F-16 stick down to the maximum forces of the Orion 2 MFSSB results in the following settings. After some testing I decided to reduce the maximum force a bit to the values in parenthesis:
  • Pitch up: 100% (90%)
  • Pitch down: 64% (58%)
  • Roll left/right: 68% (58%)

 

Thankyou for these settings, As its been a few months are you happy with them and do they work well?    I have just purchased this base this morning with the current sale so am looking how to set it up and this post popped up.    Never used a force sensing stick before in my life so its all a little daunting, but have decided to try and learn the F16 in DCS, so figured i might as well setup my pit correctly.

 

The main takeaway im seeing is it takes a long time to setup correctly.   got an adjustable mounting solution, so putting on the angles to the stick should be no issue, its just dialing in the actual forces.

[Katmandu]

On 9/25/2023 at 9:42 AM, VirusAM said:

the second thing is an hardware limitation, I am talking about the forward tilt and in the past people with thrustmaster warthog/cougar grips came with the solution of a 3d-printed tailpipe for the stick. Realsimulator  also offers such a tailpipe for their grips.

Could you not use Real Simulator tailpipe for this? https://realsimulator.com/f-16-c-angle-adapter/

I could never understand how Thrustmaster and now WinWing market their A-10 handles as F-16, when the angle is completely wrong for the F-16 handle. And yes, A-10 grip needs to be angled like below to match F-16 sidestick ergonomics.

The actual (and Real Simulator) F-16 grip is more banana-like, so it does not need tilting of course.

 

[VirusAM]

1 hour ago, Katmandu said:

Could you not use Real Simulator tailpipe for this? https://realsimulator.com/f-16-c-angle-adapter/

 

Not possible as the winwing grip structure is quite different. 

[Katmandu]

Was the Winwing FSSB step issue ever resolved? I mean the step/dead zone when transitioning from stick movement to stick force sensing. Here is a video from a RL pilot, with his view on the problem. His two RL F-16 pilot buddies agreed with him in the comments, one ended up getting Real Simulator FSSB to replace Winwing FSSB (John Raahauge).

The step issue discussion starts at 2:20

Here is this step in the joystick movement graphs (present in WinWing only, RS FSSB and, allegedly, RL F-16 does not have these step issues):

Edited November 25, 2023 by Katmandu

[Katmandu]

On 11/20/2023 at 5:43 PM, VirusAM said:

Not possible as the winwing grip structure is quite different. 

What about Thurstmaster 13deg adapter? https://www.shapeways.com/product/EJ6QMG7EW/tm-warthog-cougar-tailpiece-13deg-v2-plastic

Interestingly, the guy who makes the adapter also just finished his take on FSSB module, and allegedly it's as good/better then Real Simulator's

 

[VirusAM]

What about Thurstmaster 13deg adapter? https://www.shapeways.com/product/EJ6QMG7EW/tm-warthog-cougar-tailpiece-13deg-v2-plastic
Interestingly, the guy who makes the adapter also just finished his take on FSSB module, and allegedly it's as good/better then Real Simulator's
 

That tailpipe can work only with Thrustmaster grips.
Winwing ones are totally different and would need a different one designed for the scope.

[Katmandu]

11 hours ago, VirusAM said:

That tailpipe can work only with Thrustmaster grips.
Winwing ones are totally different and would need a different one designed for the scope.

May be this is another thing you could discuss with Rel4y? I'm sure he could make one and add it to his shop inventory.

What is your take on the step issue in Winwing FSSB? Do your graphs have it or has it been resolved? Would be curious to hear your (from memory) comparisons to Real Simulator - apart from the missing 12deg rotation and 13deg incline.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Katmandu

[Cowboy10uk]

Hi guys, just trying to get this dialed in now it’s all setup.   I’ve tried Virus’s and Waxi’s settings and while pitch is great, I’m finding roll is rather slow, unless I put a LOT of force into the stick.    I’m surprised just how much force is needed with a MSFFB.    Is this correct?    
 

obviously I’ve never used one before, and to be fair I’ve not flown the F16 since back in the falcon days so im a tad out of touch. 
 

it’s it correct than happy days, im just surprised at the force needed to get her to do anything quickly

[VirusAM]

On 12/1/2023 at 4:09 PM, Cowboy10uk said:

Hi guys, just trying to get this dialed in now it’s all setup.   I’ve tried Virus’s and Waxi’s settings and while pitch is great, I’m finding roll is rather slow, unless I put a LOT of force into the stick.    I’m surprised just how much force is needed with a MSFFB.    Is this correct?    
 

obviously I’ve never used one before, and to be fair I’ve not flown the F16 since back in the falcon days so im a tad out of touch. 
 

it’s it correct than happy days, im just surprised at the force needed to get her to do anything quickly

I am continuosly tweaking my  settings, for the rolling issue, i suggest to reduce the deadzone and increase the percentage of the physical movement in respect to the pressure sensor.

On 11/26/2023 at 12:27 PM, Katmandu said:

May be this is another thing you could discuss with Rel4y? I'm sure he could make one and add it to his shop inventory.

What is your take on the step issue in Winwing FSSB? Do your graphs have it or has it been resolved? Would be curious to hear your (from memory) comparisons to Real Simulator - apart from the missing 12deg rotation and 13deg incline.

 

Sorry, I  have lost your comment and question. 

About  the steps, I don't understand what you mean.

EDIT: I am watching the video you posted above. I'll try to understand, replicate and I will let you know

About Rel4y I think he would need access to an MFSSB to design something, anyway, head'up as qr4rigs just released new extentions for Winwing bases.

I bouught a 12cm one for my center mounted orion 2, and a raked one for the MFSSB, so we can finally have the 13° decline.

this is  a picture of it  (from his website) 

I bought it from his ebay shop.

Edited December 20, 2023 by VirusAM

[Katmandu]

On 12/20/2023 at 3:46 PM, VirusAM said:

Sorry, I  have lost your comment and question. 

About  the steps, I don't understand what you mean.

No probs and thanks for looking into this!

The steps issue is simple: there are 3 settings you can fly with with Winwing FSSB:

1)Displacement + Force. If you draw a Sine wave in joytester with this setting, you will notice a horizontal step in the wave every time you transition from stick movement to force only. In flying this results in a hesitation/dead zone, but not in the centre as with usual joysticks, but during this transition. This is bad.

2) Force Only. Here there is no step, but all of the stick's physical travel is ignored, inputs only begin to register when you move the stick to the end of its travel and where the force sensing starts. So you have a huge massive dead zone in the middle. This is also bad.

3) Real. The guy in the video (RL Tornado pilot in the past) could not understand the point of it as it was hyper sensitive and impossible to draw shallow sine waves. So also bad.

He found option 1 to be the least bad of the 3, but still bad.

His findings were confirmed by his RL F-16 pilot buddy (John Raahauge, in the comments to the vid), who ended up switching to from Winwing FSSB to Real Simulator FSSB (and was happy with the result).

The question is whether this was addressed by Winwing since the video...

Edited December 22, 2023 by Katmandu

[Papamiraculi]

I bought the MFSSB recently and am trying to find good settings. This seems like a good thread.

About the deadzone when transitioning:

What I found out is that if you squeeze a thin piece of cardboard in between the axis head (the round "mini wheel") and the actual force sensing sensor (there really is just a very small gap) you can eliminate the deadzone for the transition between the displacement and the force sensing part. Perfectly sine waves are possible. I use two blade springs on pitch, on roll one is enough.

(Will post pictures asap)

I played around with different blade spring combinations and it is a bit of a chore because you have to dial in the axis i.e. calibrate back to the center afterwards using the two screws at the side. 

I also played around with custom axis curves in DCS, most notably the very first slider which helps to minimize the deadzone.

Still not completed happy with it but it is promising and the cardboard mod seems to have helped a lot.

I also have to get used to the forces needed here, currently I use values of about 20 on pitch and roll. If I turn it up my arm fatigues quickly (and I would consider myself quite fit I have to say). Coming from a full deflection stick with soft springs this is lot to handle.

 

Edited January 10, 2024 by Papamiraculi

[Papamiraculi]

Pictures of the curve without any deadzone in transition and the cardboard piece installed.

I tried to pull as steady as possible (still getting used to the MFSSB).

I also managed to dial center deadzone down to 3%. Amazing feel now.

It is a lot of fiddling and at these low center deadzone settings, even the tightness of the screws of the base has an impact. This is quite weird...

 

Edited January 11, 2024 by Papamiraculi

[tribundf]

This cardboard trick is quite interesting. I wish winwing could fix it within the app, as this is something that obviously cant be intended. Or maybe even give us the option to buy a different cam

[Beezer]

Papamiraculi: you, Sir, are a genius.

I started using force sensing sticks way back when with the Saitek X65F. Must've been about 20 years ago. Received it as a gift, and hated it. However, as time went on I practiced with it a lot, got used to it, and grew to love it. Fast forward to a few months back I upgraded to the winwing MFSSB, and have been trying to dial it in for a while now. I too found the stepping to be a problem, and the force only mode was like trying to use a stick with a massive center deadzone. I purchased the extension for the stick, and have been using the fully realistic mode with some good results. Though I find delicate work (like aerial refueling) to still be too fidly within the small confines of the movement of the stick.

When I saw your post I was intrigued. Owning a 3D printer, I engineered a little scoop that does just what your cardboard does, and voila... so far, so good. I too now have the smooth linear movement I'm after.

I posted my settings below, which may need to be tweaked. I am using the force only mode now at 30% strength (with the extension, and the same reed setup as you have), and a 2% deadzone. To me, this is what the stick should feel like. It has a little movement, but is completely force sensing otherwise. Winwing should supply little things like this with the stick.

My only other wish for this stick would be quick settings to change the force on the fly. I had that option on my old X65f, and I miss it. Was great for keeping a heavier hand for hard manoeuvring, and then quickly switching to a lighter force for refueling. 

I threw in the STL file if anyone else here has a 3d printer and wants to punch a couple out for their rigs, or make it better.

One small advantage of this little gizmo is that it makes re-centering the stick real easy after you change out the reeds. If it isn't centered, it doesn't fit in!

Thanks again.

MFSSB Insert.stl

[Papamiraculi]

Am 29.1.2024 um 22:58 schrieb Beezer:

I threw in the STL file if anyone else here has a 3d printer and wants to punch a couple out for their rigs, or make it better.

One small advantage of this little gizmo is that it makes re-centering the stick real easy after you change out the reeds. If it isn't centered, it doesn't fit in!

Thanks again.

Don't mention it. Glad I could help.

Wow, I like your 3D-printed piece. I need to check out 3d-printing services to get my own.

In the meantime I just sqeezed in so many slips of cardboard and paper until the force mode became usable. 

 

[TripRodriguez]

@Beezer This looks great, but how the heck did you print that shape and so thin!?  I know it will vary for different machines, but could you maybe share settings (especially wall thickness) to help me try to make it work? 

Or did you resin/SLA print it?  I have a resin printer as well, that seems likely to work but since you didn't specify I assume you did it on an FDM machine.

Hell you might want to start selling these, as difficult as they will be for people to print LOL. 

Edited February 15, 2024 by TripRodriguez

[Beezer]

@TripRodriguez I have a Elegoo neptune max fdm printer. It's been good, but definitely need to dial in settings. I'm not sure what settings will work for anyone else on their units, as I'm certainly no 3d printer wiz. I used regular PLA with a 0.4 nozzle, 0.2 layer height with 0.4 line width. Wall thickness doesn't matter here because it's only one pass.

I did print the scoop upside down, and with standard support underneath for the overhang. Printed great first round for me... though I also printed a couple others at varying wall thickness until this one fit in the stick.

[TripRodriguez]

@Beezer thank you for answering!  I have a Bambu P1P so I should definitely be able to get it to work, but when I put  your design in the slicer it just straight up deleted the main functional part of the scoop (the thin wall) because it was thinner than a single line using default settings LOL.  Line width may be the main thing, I've never played with these kind of settings really.  This week I'll sit down with the settings you shared and see if I can figure it out.  

On a different topic I actually have the RealSimulator FSSB R3 Lighting and I actually like the WinWing better so far.  Though on paper the specs for max force on these two FSSB bases are nearly the same, it seemsto me like the WinWing at max settings takes a lot more force to reach the limit in reality.  Also I have only the RS base, using a thrustmaster grip so the only warning that you are exceeding limits and risking damage to the force sensor array is the flashing lights in the base which will not be visible in VR.  To get a vibration warning I'd have to spend another huge chunk of money on the RS grip.  Theoretically I only need that kind of warning until I build the muscle memory but RS strongly warned of damaging the stick base by pushing too hard and to me it seemed REALLY easy to push it into the red when you get excited.  So far this is not at all the case with the WW using the beep warning.  There is a good possibility I'll be selling the RealSimulator FSSB R3 Lighting after I have a couple months to repeatedly test and verify so I avoid seller's remorse later.  I'd prefer to keep it just in case, but my credit cards are just about maxed out again.  My collection of sim gear is a bit absurd considering I'm working on a technically poverty level income LMAO.   I need to sell some of the things I don't really think I'll use to pay for more sim gear I think I will really use but I sure wish I could just have ALL THE THINGS!

 

So ultimately, if I'm going to use the WW for the F-16 I want this mod just so you don't feel the bump when you transition from movement to force and I think with that it will be better IMO than the more expensive RealSimulator FSSB.  In addition, I bought it hoping to use it for my Star Citizen Livestream and got to use it for that purpose for the first time this weekend without any mod and man it worked fantastically.  I was doing as well as, if not better, at PvP after just a couple hours with this stick as I was with my Virpil T-50CM2 and the warthog grip that I had literally a couple thousand hours experience with.  I had reason to think this hybrid stick would be exceptional for SC, and would be happy to explain but this is already a wall of text LOL.  If anyone is curious just ask.   The only gripe I have aside from not being able to adjust the stick so it's 100% force sensing right from the center (fixed by this printed part) is that without adding some dead zone it drifts when released and I hate having deadzone be anything but zero. 

Edited February 18, 2024 by TripRodriguez

[twopac187]

On 2/17/2024 at 8:02 PM, TripRodriguez said:

There is a good possibility I'll be selling the RealSimulator FSSB R3 Lighting after I have a couple months to repeatedly test and verify so I avoid seller's remorse later.  I'd prefer to keep it just in case, but my credit cards are just about maxed out again.  My collection of sim gear is a bit absurd considering I'm working on a technically poverty level income LMAO.   I need to sell some of the things I don't really think I'll use to pay for more sim gear I think I will really use but I sure wish I could just have ALL THE THINGS!

 

If you end up looking to sell the R3, let me know. I have been considering picking one up.

[TripRodriguez]

@Beezer Thanks again for sharing your file, I found I was able to print them fine with the printer profile I made for Authentikit prints.  

 

I can't find any documentation on the WinWing MFSSB to explain the blades and mechanical travel adjustment mentioned in the description on WinWing's site.  Did you guys find documentation or just uhh.. wing it? 

 

[manashttu]

31 minutes ago, TripRodriguez said:

@Beezer Thanks again for sharing your file, I found I was able to print them fine with the printer profile I made for Authentikit prints.  

 

I can't find any documentation on the WinWing MFSSB to explain the blades and mechanical travel adjustment mentioned in the description on WinWing's site.  Did you guys find documentation or just uhh.. wing it? 

 

On Winwing's downloads page, they have pdf manuals available.  Look for this one for the MFSSB kit:

EX2_J2_2-User Manual EN V1.1

[TripRodriguez]

Thank you @manashttu perfect!  Man that's not exactly the most obvious filename for retail customers LOL.  I guess that EX2_J2_2 must be the model number I could have gotten from the packaging or something.