Is the Phantom a dogfighter?

[Schmidtfire]

I read somewhere that the key to win a fight in the F-4 is to fight in the vertical with hard turns at both ends.

It will be fun, but Im expecting it to be kind of a dog. Maybe close to the Mirage F1? Not great, not terrible. But avoid slow fights at all costs.

[Dragon1-1]

The slatted variant should be better than F1, I think. It should be a competent dogfighter, not quite on the level of 4th gen fighters, but good enough to be dangerous, including to the likes of Mirage 2000, if the pilot underestimates it. Hard wing will be less capable in turns, but less draggy, so better in BVR and in some vertical maneuvers.

[bfr]

6 hours ago, Gunfreak said:

In air to air, it holds it own up to around 1980, when the MiG29 shows up on redfoce, and later in the 80s when the Su27 shows up. 
On blue side the F14 is better at everything I would assume except maybe SEAD/DEAD, and once the 15, 16 and 28 shows up it's toast in air to air, but still probably the best bombtruck until the A6 and A7 shows up in DCS

Strike Eagle might carry a slightly smaller load of Mk82s (15 v 18 on the Phantom?) but would probably place them slightly more accurately (and definitely so once 500lb JDAMs are available to it).  As you say though, A6 & A7 will be a significant quantity bump on both if you want to fully load them.

[Stackup]

51 minutes ago, bfr said:

18 on the Phantom?

You missed a MER rack, F-4 should be able to carry 24 Mk-82s in total.  Can't aim as well as newer stuff sure, but you'll easily be able to obliterate the target's general area.

[throAU]

21 hours ago, CybrSlydr said:

 

How is this plane as a dogfighter? I know it's a massive, heavy plane with massive, powerful engines - but can it fight in a turn a bit or is the Rhino a pig?

 

Sent from my SM-S918U using Tapatalk

 

 

 

you also described an f15 or su27

 

the f4 is basically the 1960s tech f15

[throAU]

5 hours ago, CrazyGman said:

I still strongly feel The F-4E will still struggle vs the Bis at low altitude espessially, below 4000m or 13000 feet. The Bis has an emergancy after burner that once you flip the switch in front of the throttle will activate at altitudes below 13000 feet giving it a 7100kgf instead of 6800kgf which increases the lower you go and the closer to mach 1 you get. which I have tested in game and can confirm. It maxes out to 9900kgf when your on the deck and near mach 1.0. In a dogfight in game your probably looking at about a 7500-8000kgf in most dogfight situations with it active. This gives it a significant power to weight boost over the F-4E. As well if you deploy takeoff flaps combined with the emergancy burner the MiG-21Bis at decent weight can easily win a slow fight vs a F-86sabre as the Bis can pretty much cut throttle to avoid an overshot and still float, and then put on the power when it needs to. So as the F-4 I would keep speed and try to keep the fight higher up to make the eburner lose effectiveness or not even engage, and avoid getting the fight slow down low unless you are already glued on the 6 ready to gun them

 

sounds like a sensible load out to me.  the radar won’t be great, by the time you’ve spent 2 aim7 you’re likely merged anyway. 

 

err looks like i quoted the wrong post. was referring to the 2x aim7 and 4 aim9 load out…

Edited October 31, 2023 by throAU

[CybrSlydr]

Appreciate your input folks.  I don't know a whole lot about the Phantom, so hearing what you say does well to fill in the obvious blanks.  

[bfr]

1 hour ago, Stackup said:

You missed a MER rack, F-4 should be able to carry 24 Mk-82s in total.  Can't aim as well as newer stuff sure, but you'll easily be able to obliterate the target's general area.

Ah yes, I forgot you could slap another 6 on the centreline if you ditch the centre tank. And yes, it would indeed manage to make a particularly spectacular hole.

44 minutes ago, throAU said:

sounds like a sensible load out to me.  the radar won’t be great, by the time you’ve spent 2 aim7 you’re likely merged anyway. 

With AIM-7s I suspect BVR is often going to be little more than foreplay.

[SgtPappy]

11 hours ago, CrazyGman said:

I still strongly feel The F-4E will still struggle vs the Bis at low altitude espessially, below 4000m or 13000 feet. The Bis has an emergancy after burner that once you flip the switch in front of the throttle will activate at altitudes below 13000 feet giving it a 7100kgf instead of 6800kgf which increases the lower you go and the closer to mach 1 you get. which I have tested in game and can confirm. It maxes out to 9900kgf when your on the deck and near mach 1.0. In a dogfight in game your probably looking at about a 7500-8000kgf in most dogfight situations with it active. This gives it a significant power to weight boost over the F-4E. As well if you deploy takeoff flaps combined with the emergancy burner the MiG-21Bis at decent weight can easily win a slow fight vs a F-86sabre as the Bis can pretty much cut throttle to avoid an overshot and still float, and then put on the power when it needs to. So as the F-4 I would keep speed and try to keep the fight higher up to make the eburner lose effectiveness or not even engage, and avoid getting the fight slow down low unless you are already glued on the 6 ready to gun them

 

You could be right when it comes to DCS. I haven't tested the MiG-21bis turn rate in game.

But if the F-4 and MiG are accurate to the plethora of real life turn rate, climb and acceleration data, the F-4E has the edge in general. The MiG will always have the acceleration and slight climb advantage but not by enough to be a game-changer IMO. It's barely enough to keep up with the F-5 as it is currently. That epic T/W ratio isn't quite enough to overcome the induced drag of the MiG's wings in a turn, per the aforementioned data.

Edited November 1, 2023 by SgtPappy

[mkellytx]

On 10/31/2023 at 10:20 AM, WinterH said:

AIM-7E2 was called the "dogfight sparrow" wasn't it? Sparrow has pretty good acceleration, and with those huge control surfaces, I think it was supposed to be a slightly more agile missile than later AMRAAMs. But then both of these are just anectodal stuff from here and there, and not from anything we can consider a primary source.

In the end, even if Sparrow is good as a dogfight weapon, the requirement of holding a lock for 4 seconds before firing one would probably make them very dogfight-unfriendly, and that 4 seconds stuff is indeed from a primary source: F-4E manuals.

@Gunfreak as well.  Correct the E2 was able to handle some closer in stuff with mods to the radar (flood mode). for close in work.  It was most effective for tail chase outside of the AIM-9E/J range which were pretty short legged compared to the later L/M's.  One of the famous Mig-17 shoot down gunsight film from Vietnam is from a dogfight Sparrow tail shot.

On 10/31/2023 at 10:20 AM, WinterH said:

AIM-7E2 was called the "dogfight sparrow" wasn't it? Sparrow has pretty good acceleration, and with those huge control surfaces, I think it was supposed to be a slightly more agile missile than later AMRAAMs. But then both of these are just anectodal stuff from here and there, and not from anything we can consider a primary source.

In the end, even if Sparrow is good as a dogfight weapon, the requirement of holding a lock for 4 seconds before firing one would probably make them very dogfight-unfriendly, and that 4 seconds stuff is indeed from a primary source: F-4E manuals.

@Gunfreak as well.  Correct the E2 was able to handle some closer in stuff with mods to the radar (flood mode). for close in work.  It was most effective for tail chase outside of the AIM-9E/J range which were pretty short legged compared to the later L/M's.  One of the famous Mig-17 shoot down gunsight film from Vietnam is from a dogfight Sparrow tail shot.

On 10/31/2023 at 10:20 AM, WinterH said:

AIM-7E2 was called the "dogfight sparrow" wasn't it? Sparrow has pretty good acceleration, and with those huge control surfaces, I think it was supposed to be a slightly more agile missile than later AMRAAMs. But then both of these are just anectodal stuff from here and there, and not from anything we can consider a primary source.

In the end, even if Sparrow is good as a dogfight weapon, the requirement of holding a lock for 4 seconds before firing one would probably make them very dogfight-unfriendly, and that 4 seconds stuff is indeed from a primary source: F-4E manuals.

@Gunfreak as well.  Correct the E2 was able to handle some closer in stuff with mods to the radar (flood mode). for close in work.  It was most effective for tail chase outside of the AIM-9E/J range which were pretty short legged compared to the later L/M's.  One of the famous Mig-17 shoot down gunsight film from Vietnam is from a dogfight Sparrow tail shot.

[=475FG= Dawger]

I know the tendency is to focus on what is perceived to be realistic performance and I think that is a worthy goal.

However, we all have to admit that lofty ideal is hard (and maybe undesirable in certain ways) to achieve.

I am very excited, given the "generous" flight characteristics of the Kitty, that the Phantom may be generously endowed in a similar fashion and be an outstanding performer against its contemporaries in DCS and hold its own against its successors.

That will be fun, at least for a while, after long suffering.  

Edited November 2, 2023 by =475FG= Dawger

[SgtPappy]

2 hours ago, =475FG= Dawger said:

I know the tendency is to focus on what is perceived to be realistic performance and I think that is a worthy goal.

However, we all have to admit that lofty ideal is hard (and maybe undesirable in certain ways) to achieve.

I am very excited, given the "generous" flight characteristics of the Kitty, that the Phantom may be generously endowed in a similar fashion and be an outstanding performer against its contemporaries in DCS and hold its own against its successors.

That will be fun, at least for a while, after long suffering.  

 

The best anyone can do is make the jet match dynamic characteristics, stability derivatives and the published data - turn rates, accelerations, top speeds, climb rates etc. 

Agreed that not everything can be perfectly simulated but what is generous about the F-14 FM?

[Snappy]

Yea I’d also be interested to hear what Dawger thinks is „generous“ about the F-14 fm

It may have been upon release, but by now it seems quite refined and on data.

Edited November 2, 2023 by Snappy

[MysteriousHonza]

On 10/31/2023 at 6:39 PM, Dragon1-1 said:

It was only "dogfight" in that it wouldn't be completely useless in a fighter engagement, unlike the preceding versions. You basically have to line up behind the target, keep it locked, and IIRC that version still had a G limit, so flying reasonably straight. The Phantom is still of the heaters and guns generation, and the heaters aren't that amazing, either.

Aim-7E had 25G limit, same as any other sparrow after. It had gradual increase in pulled Gs after launch, hence why it was bad at close range. E2 solved that issue and had full Gload available from launch. Thats 3Gs more than 9J/P and double of 9B/E.

Edited November 3, 2023 by MysteriousHonza

[Dragon1-1]

2 hours ago, MysteriousHonza said:

Aim-7E had 25G limit, same as any other sparrow after.

Just to clarify, I wasn't talking about the Gs the missile can pull. I was talking about the G you can be pulling when you pickle it off. Early missiles wouldn't release properly if you're turning too hard, making them hard to use in a high G dogfight. Not sure how bad it is on E model Sparrows, though.

[MysteriousHonza]

23 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Just to clarify, I wasn't talking about the Gs the missile can pull. I was talking about the G you can be pulling when you pickle it off. Early missiles wouldn't release properly if you're turning too hard, making them hard to use in a high G dogfight. Not sure how bad it is on E model Sparrows, though.

There is no limitation for aim7s in manuals, neither for later varians of sidewinders that can uncage unless you push your turn beyond seeker tracking capabilities. 2G rule for 9B is recommendation only, not rule where it wont hit, it might not track if you pull more though, but it can also hit, its roll the dice scenario basically. And not even uncaging is requirement, 9D gets no launch limit aswell, mid-late 60s missile mind you.

Edited November 3, 2023 by MysteriousHonza

[WinterH]

2 hours ago, MysteriousHonza said:

It had gradual increase in pulled Gs after launch

Sadly this seems to be one of the things DCS can't do as of yet, also plagueging Mirage F1's R530s, making them A LOT better missiles than they should be. AFAIK, right now it's either full authority, or none. Well but that's besides the topic I guess.

[Stuntie]

The Dogfights DVD sets have some good F-4 action over Vietnam.
F-4 was built more as an interceptor for Soviet bombers than a true dogfighter.
But could take on MiGs in the right hands in a knife fight.

Sadly the F-4 was frequently hobbled by the Rules of Engagement in Vietnam, such as needing to visually identify the obvious MiG rather than just splashing it BVR where the Phantom ruled the roost.
And forced many fights into the close in dogfights that better suited the MiG's

[SgtPappy]

4 hours ago, MysteriousHonza said:

There is no limitation for aim7s in manuals, neither for later varians of sidewinders that can uncage unless you push your turn beyond seeker tracking capabilities. 2G rule for 9B is recommendation only, not rule where it wont hit, it might not track if you pull more though, but it can also hit, its roll the dice scenario basically. And not even uncaging is requirement, 9D gets no launch limit aswell, mid-late 60s missile mind you.

 

Apologies if this has been answered but I remember there being a 6 G limit on the AIM-9D per the performance manual for the F-4B/J. Maybe that's just for that whole pylon? I think it's 6.5 G in the USAF F-4E manual for the AIM-9J/P. See below:

 

[MysteriousHonza]

1 hour ago, SgtPappy said:

Apologies if this has been answered but I remember there being a 6 G limit on the AIM-9D per the performance manual for the F-4B/J. Maybe that's just for that whole pylon? I think it's 6.5 G in the USAF F-4E manual for the AIM-9J/P. See below:

 

Thats phantom limits. Direct manual for aim-9D and C states no G limit and only short tone period for launch required. When i get home, i will find it and post it.

[Kalasnkova74]

4 hours ago, Stuntie said:

Sadly the F-4 was frequently hobbled by the Rules of Engagement in Vietnam, such as needing to visually identify the obvious MiG rather than just splashing it BVR where the Phantom ruled the roost.
And forced many fights into the close in dogfights that better suited the MiG's

It’s beneficial to note here that in many phases of Southeast Asia, encountering MiGs was a very uncommon circumstance. Many US pilots rotated in, flew their deployments and rotated home with 0 MiG encounters, much less dogfights. The Rules of Engagement to VID were 100% sound when multiple , uncoordinated branches were flying missions in the same airspace. The F-4 downed 150 out of 197 MiGs shot down in that war- lots of planes, but a pittance vs the over 5,000,000 sorties the USAF alone flew in Southeast Asia. 

The RoE wasn’t the ball and chain it’s often cited as. Bigger factors were the USAF using an obsolete finger four tactical formation , and overall lack of air to air training in the nuclear war focused US military of the late 50s and early 60s. The Navy would rectify this before Linebacker kicked off in 1972. 
 

 

[Dragon1-1]

19 hours ago, MysteriousHonza said:

Thats phantom limits. Direct manual for aim-9D and C states no G limit and only short tone period for launch required. When i get home, i will find it and post it.

Does it really matter? Proper ejection of the missile is basically determined by the pylon it's mounted on. If they are considered part of the aircraft, then it makes sense for the limits to be in the aircraft manual. Early Sidewinders were an exception since the 2G limitation was about seeker head movement, not release mechanics. 

In the end, the result is the same: missiles, particularly early ones (ejectors improved along with the missiles themselves), require the launch aircraft's G load to be below a certain value. Which manual this limitation is described in is of no consequence when you're turning with a MiG and trying to get a missile up its tailpipe.

Edited November 4, 2023 by Dragon1-1

[Temetre]

Am 3.11.2023 um 14:04 schrieb Stuntie:

And forced many fights into the close in dogfights that better suited the MiG's

Id imagine at most thats only true for Mig-17/19 tho? The 21 isnt a dogfighter either, emergency afterburner or not.

From what Ive read the F-4 has both a prett good wing-surface area for its weight (no surprise it inspired the F-15), and a higher thrust to weight ratio. And if the slatted wings allow you to keep higher AoAs, then Id assume itll be a capable dogfighter compared to other 3rd gen fighters. Probably better rather than worse compared to most.

[Dragon1-1]

7 hours ago, Temetre said:

Id imagine at most thats only true for Mig-17/19 tho? The 21 isnt a dogfighter either, emergency afterburner or not.

The MiG-21F-13 that the Phantom faced was a dogfighter (and had no emergency AB). We have a fat, bloated MiG-21bis which, while contemporary to the F-4E, was not its most famous opponent. The sleek, sexy early models were completely different animals, with a weaker engine, avionics closer to the MiG-19 and considerably lighter weight. 

[SgtPappy]

53 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

The MiG-21F-13 that the Phantom faced was a dogfighter (and had no emergency AB). We have a fat, bloated MiG-21bis which, while contemporary to the F-4E, was not its most famous opponent. The sleek, sexy early models were completely different animals, with a weaker engine, avionics closer to the MiG-19 and considerably lighter weight. 

The MiG-2MF fought the hard wing and slatted F-4E loads of times between 1970-1973 in the Middle East. It's basically a MiG-21bis with no emergency AB. I doubt anyone will purposely hamper their performance for historical accuracy though. As always with DCS, it will have to be close enough.

It would be nice to have data for the middle MiG models like the -21PFM, but the -21F-13 energy diagrams are out there. They have similar 2-circle performance to the -21bis but of course better 1-circle performance while being significantly more limited in level speed down low.

Edited November 4, 2023 by SgtPappy