Flying the Tomcat on speed round the boat

[markturner1960]

I have been putting a lot of time in trying to git gud at this. Some context, I have hundreds of carrier landings in the hornet so know the theory and can fly it very well on speed and land and get good grades consistently. I know the F14 is more difficult, much more but after many many hours and maybe at leats a couple of hundred attempts, I am still struggling. I can do it, but its much messier and many more bolters ( Before you all say "Practice!!!" )I have various issues / queries I would appreciate some input on. In no particular order:

1) How different are the F14A & B models to fly on speed around the boat and what tips for each

2) Auto throttle - is this recommended to use or not? I have tried with and without and still struggle, mainly due to the very slow spool up times. It can be literally several seconds before an increase in throttle results in a significant change in height and then, its nearly always too much height and the same issue with reducing throttle. I timed a fairly small increase in throttle from around 74% to mid 80's and it was 6 or 7 seconds before the nose lifted to where I wanted it. In the Hornet, this happens in maybe 1 or 2 seconds.....Often I find with AT engaged, speed is much too high in the groove....Second point with AT is that the throttle is supposed to control the height, so when using the AT, you only have DLC to control the height. 

3) When on speed, should you use the stick at all for additional inputs? Because I always seem to be playing catch up, I find I often have to assist by using the stick to pitch up or down as the pure throttle input is simply not making it happen quick enough, ( Especially bearing in mind in the groove you have maybe 18 seconds total......) I find accurately controlling the jet using only the throttle is almost impossible. If you can correct the height, then that almost certainly means coming out of being on speed.........In the same area , next point:

4) DLC - I have tried, when using auto throttle to just use this to control the jet. ( By this I mean keeping the bracket where it should be and the FPM where it needs to be ) Its not easy, but it is doable.  How much do you guys use the DLC and how? I find I need almost continual inputs to keep the jet on speed. And still have to be using the stick a bit. 

5) Speed brakes....do you recommend keeping them out all the way to landing? 

6) Finally, why does the F14 pitch up and down so much when in this area of the flight envelope, and why is it so behind the pilots inputs? 

Edited November 22, 2023 by markturner1960

[Nealius]

1) I find the only major differences to be the throttle range you're working with. In the B the throttle range feels much higher near the MIL stop whereas in the A the throttle range feels much lower near the IDLE stop, or perhaps in the middle. There is also a good amount of delay between your throttle input and engine reponse in the A.

2) Never tried autothrottles to be honest

3) When trimmed on-speed I do play with stick pitch a lot as opposed to the Hornet. Not major movements, but little nudges to maintain on-speed during power changes. I believe this is normal considering it's not a FBW jet, and it's not a whole lot different than the A-4E, though I feel the Skyhawk is a lot more squirrelly in this regime.

4) I engage DLC on every trap/landing, but usage is very case-by-case. If I need to dump some altitude I tap the DLC out. If I need to gain some altitude I tap the DLC in. I always tap, never hold it in/out. When the planets align I will occasionally have a pass where I don't need to tap it at all.

5) Speed brakes out every time.

6) I think it's just because it's an old-school jet. To maintain the same AoA when you add power, you have to nudge the stick forward. When you take off power, nudge the stick back. I might have that backwards--it's automatic to me at this point so I'm having trouble putting it in words. Other non-FBW jets like the F-5E, AV-8B, F-15E, etc. are like this as well, each to varying degrees. 

[Lt_Jaeger]

1)  I usually only fly the B, but from what I remember I need more FF for the same result and in general the TF 30 react slower than the B engines.

 

2) Leave it off, at least in case I. If you engage it, AT ONLY gets you on speed. So, in order to raise or lower your rate of decent, you need to raise or lower your nose via stick input. Leave the DLC alone in this phase of the flight (it's easier said than done, I know, I use it sometimes to rectify fu..ups in my throttle setup as well and feel bad about it)

 

3) in the downwind leg you should all be trimmed out and should actually be able to fly the thing hands off. For sure you need some lateral input as soon as you turn for the 90 / groove.

 

4) On a good day, I only user 2 short bangs only to make sure kitty doesn't float over the wires. If I start early to use DLC, I know I did screwed it already and just mopping up behind the Jet.

 

5) Speed brakes come out full in the break and stay on full during the rest of the recovery.

 

6) every change in throttle is accompanied with change in pitch. Yes, the engines spool up slowly but that is to be anticipated. The whole trick is to know what will be happen and what to do next, even before it happens. Yeap, I know, easier said then... You want to learn the FF during different phases of the flight. Obviously depending on the weight, it will be 3000someething during on speed level flight, pushed up a little, to maybe 4000 entering the turn for the 90 to be deduced again immediately, reaching 500 on the 90 it needs to be reduced slightly again to get a little greater rate of decent, rolling out in the groove, you will lower the throttle to not climb. Next you know you will be pushed up by the burble, you want to lower the setting in advance again, just to raise it immediately for the second part, where the burble will suck you down, just to find the sweet spot again for a controlled flight into the wires --- here you just give it the two dashes of DLC.

 

The Tomcat wasn’t called the turkey for nothing. You will see flight controls moving every second of the flight which would make her look like a fat flopping bird…

 

So yes, in the end it is only training and training again to get in front of the jet and not only react. This is a highly perishable skill, and just jumping into the Hornet for one two traps totally screws up your skills. Oh, btw. you want to have your view glued to that pack of flight instruments on the left for most time until crossing the wake... another thing hard to learn.

 

Just my 2c and no, even after all these hours, I’m still not there yet to be on a constant level. Some days it is the OK 3-wire which impresses myself, other days its just a struggle to achieve the fair something wire. Don’t give up, that’s the charm of a non FBW plane, you have to work for good results.

[Tulkas]

Find out the engine base line, practice with some altitude in landing configuration to hold level flight on speed and a 700fpm descent. Airbrake out, higher rpm gives you better spooling time and safer go around.

For me in the B model the base line is FF between 3 and 4 downwind and between 2.5 and 3.5 on the glide, adjusting for weight. In my warthog throttle, that’s really very little range of movement. 
 

Setting on downwind pitch up the nose 10 degrees, adjust the throttle for level flight at 600ft, you will be on speed, then trim trim trim. The trim does not fly the plane for you, use your stick to keep those 10 degrees nailed, scan constantly and in a pattern the instruments ADI, ALT… correct any deviation.

You probably know the theory after abeam, when to turn, 25 degrees of bank (remember the rudder!), 500ft at 90, tuck the boat´s wake under the left armpit, etc etc…

Then you are on the groove, again, fly the thing, the trim is not going to do it for you.  I think the Tomcat has it all: adverse yaw, proverse yaw, on speed buffeting, adverse roll, dutch roll, pitch up when powering up… every time you touch something everything gets out of wack and you have to work it back,  keep the nose at 7.5 degrees up, and then you know the drill: ball, AoA, Line up, ball, AoA, line up, ball, ball, ball… you will have to earn the trap with all the controls at your disposal, EVERY SINGLE TIME.

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Tulkas

[Victory205]

^^^^This is the way. 
 

Find the attitude plus power for the landing configuration for level, the 180 to 90 turn, and final. Then it is a matter of constant adjustments around this values.

It’s supposed to be difficult. If I haven’t flown in awhile, it will take at least 5-10 passes to recalibrate the required inputs and corrections.
 

Before attempting a new carrier session, I always begin by practicing level turns, the break maneuver and extended pattern maneuvering until I can consistently make the aircraft do what it needs to do.

 

 

 

 

[markturner1960]

Thanks guys...as I thought, basically, it is very difficult and needs <profanity> loads of practice. But loads of useful stuff there, thank you.....just quickly...FF is mentioned several times......what is this? 

Edited November 23, 2023 by markturner1960

[Snappy]

19 minutes ago, markturner1960 said:

Thanks guys...as I thought, basically, it is very difficult and needs <profanity> loads of practice. But loads of useful stuff there, thank you.....just quickly...FF is mentioned several times......what is this? 

 

Fuel Flow, with the numbers being the values on your engine gauges in the different phases.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Snappy

[Rhrich]

11 hours ago, Victory205 said:

^^^^This is the way. 
 

Find the attitude plus power for the landing configuration for level, the 180 to 90 turn, and final. Then it is a matter of constant adjustments around this values.

It’s supposed to be difficult. If I haven’t flown in awhile, it will take at least 5-10 passes to recalibrate the required inputs and corrections.
 

Before attempting a new carrier session, I always begin by practicing level turns, the break maneuver and extended pattern maneuvering until I can consistently make the aircraft do what it needs to do.

 

 

 

 

This is the way. 
 

curious if auto throttle was used in case 1. Never tried in DCS but experience suggest 60s technology auto throttle it’s not capable of sudden control inputs. 

[BMO]

got this tip from somewhere around here:

* during the initial break, after dirtying up ur airplane (airbrake, wing sweep, gear, full flaps, dlc) you hold your trim nose up for roughly 4 seconds. this will give you already a good estimate for on-speed-trim. doing this massively improved my ability to get a stable on speed in the downwind.

1) A and B are different, engines on the A are slow in response and not as strong in mil. Would start learning with the B since it´s easier imo. I crashed the A against the boat quite some times.

2) i never use auto throttle in case 1. makes it harder for me

3) I do use all inputs, but after getting on-speed I try to avoid big pitch movements. especially when entering the groove, when bank angle decreases and lift increases.

4) I activate it into middle position during the break and usually dont touch it afterwards. I dont have it bound to an axis, so i cant really control it. Only use is when I sometimes need to kill lift right before the touchdown (ugly landings when I hammer it on the deck instead of waving off, plz dont judge). Using it on an axis and getting good with it definitely is a good and useful skill.

5) speedbrakes are out from entering the break until touchdown

6) I dont really have that feeling. Do you fly with curvature on the axis? Remove it. I read from several people that the F-14 flies strangely with curvature applied to the pitch axis

[markturner1960]

OK, so I noticed a funny thing this morning while practicing the above advice.....hoping someone can explain. I had landed on the boat and for expediency, just went full AB off the end of the deck rather than waste time hooking up to the cat. So I was in the same trim etc config as having just landed. I pulled the throttles back as I reached 150 kts , the nose climbed really steeply, so I started to push down on the stick to correct, and I notice dthat despite my having pulled the throttles right back, at the attitude I was in, nose high and low speed, as I pushed down on the stick, and wrestled with the aircraft, the fuel flow and RPM were both going up and down, WITHOUT me moving the throttle! I opened the controls indicator to double check and sure enough, throttle was not moving according to that, but the engines were spooling up and down. This was obviously causing the nose to pitch up and down. It was fairly happily flying along at approx 120 - 150 kts with about 18 AoA . How does that happen? Also checked auto throttle, was not engaged. What is going there? And why? 

Thanks! 

[Bealdor]

Did you fly the A or B model?

If you flew the A it could've been the mid compession bypass system, trying to avoid engine stall at high AOA.

[markturner1960]

Yes, it was in the A, and subsequent to my post, I had it happen again, while wrestling the jet into the downwind on speed configuration. Interesting, so in certain flight regimes, the engine will spool it self up? 

[Victory205]

This occurs due to “Mach Lever Shift” of the Mach Lever System.

Mach lever shift increases engine idle speed in the subsonic and high AOA regime to provide increased stall margins. Below 0.9 IMN, if AOA is increased to 18 units or more, the CADC input to the Mach lever trim system is replaced by a fixed value equivalent to 1.3 IMN, which spools up the engine automatically, regardless of throttle lever position.

It’s modeled correctly.

[markturner1960]

Wow, interesting! Thanks! I have owned the F14 for a couple of years and when the A model came out did not really use it, as I assumed the B model was "better" ! Now I am starting to appreciate teh greater demmands that flying the A makes of you, having started DCS with the more modern modules such as the Hornet, I now realise I prefer the older jets and especially enjoy the F14 ( as well as the Mirage F1) as it really makes you feel you have to fly it, rather than it fly you. Only started flying the A model a couple of months ago, and did not realise this important feature! Thanks again!

[markturner1960]

So putting some of the advice into practice yesterday, I managed a good run of passes, no bolters and much improved. Still much practice needed, but its coming together slowly......

 

Thanks all for the input