Hellfires against air targets

[Donglr]

Hi gents,

 

playing a bit of Blue Flag PVP I always feel at the short end of the stick when it comes to fighting other helicopters. The Mi24 has R60s, the Ka50 has Iglas and ED does not want to give the Apache Stingers. 

So I wonder how well the Hellfires fare against slow air targets. Is it actually a realistic scenario to kill a flying helo with a Hellfire? Can this be done with the RF or the SAL version? I tried this with the SAL recently and George didn't even shoot. How do you engage enemy helicopters in the Apache?

[NeedzWD40]

There has been at least 2 real world air-to-air shootdowns with the AGM-114, one against a Cessna 152 and one against a UAV, so it's possible. The AGM-114L has also been modified into a surface to air variation, but I suspect this has warhead/fuzing changes to work properly. Within DCS, neither work very well outside of narrow parameters, though the AGM-114L can cause a lot of fright due to the radar. Within 3km the 114K can do fairly well, but chances of a hit lower dramatically with range, target aspect, speed, and maneuvering. George cannot be relied upon for accurate targeting of aerial threats as he doesn't aim right for SAL missiles.

Ideally, we would have access to the M255 rockets for this purpose, but there's no ETA on any new rocket types or improvements at this time.

[Vital061270]

You can work on airborne, low-speed targets if you have "Attack Airborne Targets" in the Apache editor.

[Raptor9]

4 hours ago, Donglr said:

ED does not want to give the Apache Stingers. 

It is not a matter of want. The AH-64D in US Army has never been capable of employing Stingers or any air-to-air missiles. Such a feature would be as unrealistic as giving the AH-64 AGM-65 missiles.

Further, there are no public references for how these weapons function in any of the foreign variants of the AH-64 that have been modified to do so.

[hotrod525]

5 hours ago, NeedzWD40 said:

There has been at least 2 real world air-to-air shootdowns with the AGM-114, one against a Cessna 152 and one against a UAV, so it's possible. The AGM-114L has also been modified into a surface to air variation, but I suspect this has warhead/fuzing changes to work properly. Within DCS, neither work very well outside of narrow parameters, though the AGM-114L can cause a lot of fright due to the radar. Within 3km the 114K can do fairly well, but chances of a hit lower dramatically with range, target aspect, speed, and maneuvering. George cannot be relied upon for accurate targeting of aerial threats as he doesn't aim right for SAL missiles.

Ideally, we would have access to the M255 rockets for this purpose, but there's no ETA on any new rocket types or improvements at this time.

So Flechette is realy the best we can hope for Air - Air  ? I've read on a site that apparently you can set the fuze time on these, probably trought LRF ?

[TheGhostOfDefi]

I personally hope that the hellfires get a bit of love to get a bit better against air targets. I don’t expect AIM-9X! Slight tracking improvements would be nice..

[Raptor9]

6 minutes ago, TheGhostOfDefi said:

I personally hope that the hellfires get a bit of love to get a bit better against air targets.

Not sure what possible improvements you think should be necessary. AGM-114's are anti-tank missiles, they are not designed to engage aircraft. They can certainly be used against aircraft like other similar missiles, since the missile does not know or care whether the target is touching the ground or not; but intercepting aircraft that are maneuvering around the sky are not what they are designed to destroy.

[TheGhostOfDefi]

38 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

Not sure what possible improvements you think should be necessary. AGM-114's are anti-tank missiles, they are not designed to engage aircraft. They can certainly be used against aircraft like other similar missiles, since the missile does not know or care whether the target is touching the ground or not; but intercepting aircraft that are maneuvering around the sky are not what they are designed to destroy.

I had some close calls with Hellfires where they missed by cm´s. No i dont expect a Proximity fuze but it was like a last second loss of track. I dont have evidence of this in any way right now and i dont see this as substantial enough as to direct any work to this. 

Other than that i agree with you that those arent A-A Missiles. Altough i would like to know what they changed for the L to use it as S-A Missile. Had to have some reason why to not use the Stinger.

I was just was throwing in my 5 cent. (Or how this saying was)

[Goose489]

5 minutes ago, TheGhostOfDefi said:

I had some close calls with Hellfires where they missed by cm´s. No i dont expect a Proximity fuze but it was like a last second loss of track. I dont have evidence of this in any way right now and i dont see this as substantial enough as to direct any work to this. 

Other than that i agree with you that those arent A-A Missiles. Altough i would like to know what they changed for the L to use it as S-A Missile. Had to have some reason why to not use the Stinger.

I was just was throwing in my 5 cent. (Or how this saying was)

The last-second loss of track could have been due to the aircraft possibly climbing or descending because the missile is not designed to hit a climbing target.

[Goose489]

56 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

Not sure what possible improvements you think should be necessary. AGM-114's are anti-tank missiles, they are not designed to engage aircraft. They can certainly be used against aircraft like other similar missiles, since the missile does not know or care whether the target is touching the ground or not; but intercepting aircraft that are maneuvering around the sky are not what they are designed to destroy.

Can you at least give us the stinger?

[TheGhostOfDefi]

13 minutes ago, Goose489 said:

The last-second loss of track could have been due to the aircraft possibly climbing or descending because the missile is not designed to hit a climbing target.

IDK maybe.

11 minutes ago, Goose489 said:

Can you at least give us the stinger?

1. Even if they want they seem to have no Documentation needed for implementing those.

2. ED has a straight course with their fidelity and the as far as i know only Taiwan & Japan implemented those. (We have a US Apache despite many liveries)

[Goose489]

The American Apache has sidewinders which would also be a nice addition.

11 minutes ago, TheGhostOfDefi said:

IDK maybe.

1. Even if they want they seem to have no Documentation needed for implementing those.

2. ED has a straight course with their fidelity and the as far as i know only Taiwan & Japan implemented those. (We have a US Apache despite many liveries)

 

[BIGNEWY]

5 minutes ago, Goose489 said:

The American Apache has sidewinders which would also be a nice addition.

 

Hi, as already mentioned by Raptor it is not correct for the US Army AH-64D

4 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

It is not a matter of want. The AH-64D in US Army has never been capable of employing Stingers or any air-to-air missiles. Such a feature would be as unrealistic as giving the AH-64 AGM-65 missiles.

Further, there are no public references for how these weapons function in any of the foreign variants of the AH-64 that have been modified to do so.

 

 

[Dragon1-1]

9 minutes ago, Goose489 said:

The American Apache has sidewinders which would also be a nice addition.

Only the AH-64A was ever equipped with them. It would be nice to have, but it'd be a whole other helo.

[Goose489]

2 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hi, as already mentioned by Raptor it is not correct for the US Army AH-64D

 

I apologize it is the AH-64A/D variant that employs the sidewinder and stinger.

[Dr_Pavelheer]

In my experience Limas track slow flying targets like helicopters better than Kilos. Of course kinematic performance is limited and missile lacks proximity fuse, but if you catch enemy with their pants down and don't try to shoot helicopters beaming you at 250 kph you have a decent chance of hitting the target

[Goose489]

2 minutes ago, Dr_Pavelheer said:

In my experience Limas track slow flying targets like helicopters better than Kilos. Of course kinematic performance is limited and missile lacks proximity fuse, but if you catch enemy with their pants down and don't try to shoot helicopters beaming you at 250 kph you have a decent chance of hitting the target

I agree.

[Raptor9]

24 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Only the AH-64A was ever equipped with them.

23 minutes ago, Goose489 said:

I apologize it is the AH-64A/D variant that employs the sidewinder and stinger.

No AH-64A or AH-64D's have ever fielded any air-to-air missile in the US Army, whether that be the Sidewinder, Stinger, or otherwise. This is all internet folklore, and does not reflect reality.

There were plans to field Stinger to the US Army AH-64A's and D's, going back to the 1980's, and there were even limited test firings of Sidewinder from the A-model as well. However, these plans never actually materialized outside of a few limited test firings, and the weapons were never fielded or operationally employed. The aircraft do not even have the hardware to do it, aside from the structural mounting lugs on the wingtips and the buttons in the cockpit.

There is an entire thread in the wishlist section that debates this endlessly, but again, it doesn't reflect reality and there are no plans to implement air-to-air missiles in DCS AH-64D.

[Goose489]

6 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

No AH-64A or AH-64D's have ever fielded any air-to-air missile in the US Army, whether that be the Sidewinder, Stinger, or otherwise. This is all internet folklore, and does not reflect reality.

There were plans to field Stinger to the US Army AH-64A's and D's, going back to the 1980's, and there were even limited test firings of Sidewinder from the A-model as well. However, these plans never actually materialized outside of a few limited test firings, and the weapons were never fielded or operationally employed. The aircraft do not even have the hardware to do it, aside from the structural mounting lugs on the wingtips and the buttons in the cockpit.

There is an entire thread in the wishlist section that debates this endlessly, but again, it doesn't reflect reality and there are no plans to implement air-to-air missiles in DCS AH-64D.

The Apache has never used the missiles but is capable of carrying up to four rail-launched sidewinder missiles

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Hiob]

2 minutes ago, Goose489 said:

The Apache has never used the missiles but is capable of carrying up to four rail-launched sidewinder missiles

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Afaik that was only tested but never deployed in the field.

[Goose489]

But it is still capable correct?

2 minutes ago, Hiob said:

Afaik that was only tested but never deployed in the field.

 

I understand this would never be used in-game and there is nothing the ED team needs to do about this topic.

[Hiob]

No, I think that some of the Apache-Guys ( @Raptor9?) ruled that out. But, please, I'm not 100% sure.

Maybe somebody can jump in and confirm.

[Goose489]

Just now, Hiob said:

No, I think that some of the Apache-Guys ( @Raptor9?) ruled that out. But, please, I'm not 100% sure.

Maybe somebody can jump in and confirm.

I'm not 100% sure either.

[Raptor9]

26 minutes ago, Goose489 said:

The Apache has never used the missiles but is capable of carrying up to four rail-launched sidewinder missiles

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

No, never. It is not simply a "not used" scenario. They are physically incapable of it. No software or hardware to facilitate such munitions. As I stated in the post you quoted:

34 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

No AH-64A or AH-64D's have ever fielded any air-to-air missile in the US Army, whether that be the Sidewinder, Stinger, or otherwise. This is all internet folklore, and does not reflect reality.

There were plans to field Stinger to the US Army AH-64A's and D's, going back to the 1980's, and there were even limited test firings of Sidewinder from the A-model as well. However, these plans never actually materialized outside of a few limited test firings, and the weapons were never fielded or operationally employed. The aircraft do not even have the hardware to do it, aside from the structural mounting lugs on the wingtips and the buttons in the cockpit.

[Goose489]

5 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

No, never. It is not simply a "not used" scenario. They are physically incapable of it. No software or hardware to facilitate such munitions. As I stated in the post you quoted:

 

This is an excerpt from Army Technology's Apache page.

The Apache attack helicopter can be equipped with air-to-air missiles (Stinger, AIM-9 Sidewinder, Mistral and Sidearm) and the advanced precision kill weapon system (APKWS), formerly known as Hydra, family of guided and unguided 70mm rockets.