check procedures TWS with datalink ON - TMS RIGHT does not work

[Nedum]

On 12/26/2023 at 1:32 PM, AndrewDCS2005 said:

@Keith Briscoe @Nedum @Tenkom please see this thread - i just accidentally found that with DL ON you need to use TMS RIGHT short 2 times.

 

Nope, doesn't work for me. I can bug the target with a single TMS right, but the bugged targets staying fulfilled.

 

On 11/2/2023 at 11:31 PM, Nedum said:

Here is a track.Datalink-issue.trk 

The difference: hollowed squares versus none hollowed squares after bugging the tracks in TWS

Datalink off: 1. TMS right long = RWS to TWS 2. TMS right short = white hollowed squares

Datalink on: 1. TMS right long = RWS to TWS 2. TMS right short = still fulfilled yellow squares

With Datalink on, you can't see anymore which tracks you have bugged because the yellow squares stay fulfilled, no hollowed squares anymore.

Edit: I don't know if this is right or wrong, but I am interested in the answer too, so I thought I might could help out.

 

To bug a track isn't the problem. It's the symbolic that stays the same as an unbugged target, so you don't know anymore, which target is bugged as long you try to switch the target with another short TMS right.

 

BTW: why is the thread still marked with missing a trk. file?

Did I miss something?

Edited January 1, 2024 by Nedum

[Sideburns]

This still appears to be an issue, any official comment from ED if TMS right short twice is the correct invocation rather than TMS right?

[Nedum]

To test it, one can pick the F16 Free Flight Quick Action Mission on the Caucasus Map and test it. In 9 of 10 times you'll pick only one target if you are in TWS mode, even so 4 targets are in between the TWS scan bar. Only one target will be bugged. That behavior will stay until the targets are in a 25 Miles range. Could it be that there is something bound to IFF scan mode and the bugged Data Link and the wrong symbolic?

As soon one is using the Data Link there is no way anymore to see what Tracks are System Tracks (no hollowed out yellow squares will ever been shown with the Data Link on).

I have the feeling, the F16 is completely broken. Nothing works anymore in a way that was marked for years as "correct as is". And the F16 is the only AC in DCS that has a different weapon behavior, even so she is using the same hardware as other AC.

All documents for the F16 can't explain that different behavior. The worst part of that is, they explain mostly a different, the old working behavior and steps to let the hardware do their work. That alone makes it's nearly impossible to know it's working like it should and how to use the Hardware, the now "correct as is" way.

Mostly all the F16 documents are broken and misleading to a wrong explanation.

Is there any ETA we will get working systems with the right, not misleading documents?

Right now I have the feeling not even ED is knowing what is "correct as is" and some schoolers have some "fun" with the F16 module as a programmer test bed.

[Eggcake]

Is there any update on this from ED ?? This is still completely bugged as far as I know.

[Raptor9]

A lot to unpack in this thread, but I'll do my best to explain it in the clearest but briefest of terms. First, when using TWS it takes several moments to build a radar track (large, solid square) from a raw radar return, or "search target" (small solid square). The longer the scan time, the longer it takes to build a radar track. For example, if using a 1-bar scan with a narrow azimuth, the radar track can be built faster since the target aircraft is scanned multiple times in a smaller time frame, allowing the radar to establish the track. This is especially important when building a track against maneuvering targets. In the first image below, several radar tracks have been established.

In the second image below, other aircraft have been detected by the radar enough times to build additional radar tracks, which is an automatic process.

Once a radar track is established, it can then be upgraded to a system track within the system track file. Once a system track is established, it will appear as a large, hollow square if not correlated with any offboard datalink information. If no system tracks have been established from radar tracks, TMS Right will command up to 10 radar tracks to be upgraded to system tracks within the system track file, since a maximum of 10 tracks within the system track file can be derived from radar tracks, and will bug the closest as the highest priority target, or Target Of Interest (TOI) with a circle. (The remaining solid white square on the FCR MFD below was established as a radar track after already upgrading the other 9 to system tracks.)

Once any system track is bugged as TOI, this will also command the radar to a +/-25 degree azimuth scan centered on the TOI, which may cause some existing tracks to be dropped if they remain outside the FCR scan volume for several moments. In the image below, TMS Right was used to step the TOI through several tracks. Several moments of the state shown in the image below will cause the three tracks on the left to be dropped.

When TNDL is incorporated, datalink tracks are contributed from offboard sources and are contained within the F-16's system track file like the radar tracks that have been upgraded to system tracks. However, if a target aircraft is being tracked by the F-16's FCR and is also present within the system track file from an offboard datalink track, the two tracks will be correlated and the track information from the offboard datalink source will be added to the system track sourced from the onboard FCR. Under these conditions, the radar track is essentially upgraded to a system track automatically by the fact it is being correlated with information from an existing system track.

Pressing TMS Right will immediately bug the closest target as the TOI since the radar tracks are already upgraded to system tracks, and since they have inherited the datalink information from the contributing offboard source within the system track file, the target symbol reflects this added information. In the image below, since a target has been bugged, the FCR scan volume is reduced to a +/-25 degree azimuth scan as before, dropping one of the radar tracks, which reverts to a surveillance air track being received from a nearby E-3 AWACS aircraft.

If the pilot wished to bug the far right target for an engagement, it must be one of the 10 system tracks that have been established from a radar track.

Once the cursor is slewed to that datalink track to steer the FCR scan volume to re-detect the target, it will still take a few moments before the target can be bugged as TOI, so that the FCR can establish that track as one of the 10 system tracks based on reliable radar track information. However, as can be seen, other tracks will be dropped to only offboard tracks as they lose their radar track information.

__________________________________________________

Now, having said all of that, before the posts start appearing regarding radar tracks that have been correlated with offboard surveillance tracks and leading to differences between the colors and shapes when they become correlated/uncorrelated, it is a known issue that will hopefully be resolved in the near future.

[AndrewDCS2005]

@Raptor9 thank you for your elaborate explanation! All clear and all makes sense.

Just a small step back to reestablish the context of this thread and discussion, which is pretty simple - use TWS to shoot at multiple targets simultaneously, where targets first came from TNDL donor, before being detected by FCR as radar tracks. This maps to some real-world CAP scenario where AWACS detects hostile targets at greater distance than F-16 APG-68 FCR.

Let's look at a repro reduced down to very simple case - two targets, 12h, hot, picked up by E-2D as donor, then FCR. Targets stay within 30-degree FCR scan bars and volume while in TWS, no maneuvering.

You've mentioned the following:

Quote

Under these conditions, the radar track is essentially upgraded to a system track automatically by the fact it is being correlated with information from an existing system track.

Okay, let's say this was the case and for a moment put aside colors and shapes.

I waited a bit for the targets to stay in this state, then pressed TMS right once. Nothing happened. Waited a sec or two, pressed TMS right again. Nothing happened. Waited few more seconds, pressed TMS right again. Now the right target became bugged. Okay, lets say I need to shoot at the left one first. Pressed TMS right to switch the target - nothing happened. Pressed TMS right three more times - no result. Stopped and saved the track, attached below.

Now, there are two options here:

- TWS worked fine, and these two radar tracks were upgraded to system tracks automatically after TNDL correlation. But TMS right did nothing. So there is a bug in TMS.

- FCR/HSD showed the same visual shape/color indication for both targets as TWS system tracks, but this was incorrect due to known issue mentioned in shapes/colors. 

In either case, shooting at two targets in TWS is not happening and the pilot has no indication why.

 

F16-TWS-TNDL-broken.trk

Edited January 14 by AndrewDCS2005

[Raptor9]

@AndrewDCS2005, I took control of your track and indeed the targets cannot be bugged when they are initially illuminated by the ownship FCR. However, when I narrowed the scan volume in azimuth and bars, I was able to bug the targets sooner. Further, if I deliberately slewed the FCR scan volume away from the incoming aircraft until the radar tracks were dropped, and then slewed it back, as distance to the aircraft was reduced, I was able to bug the targets more rapidly after initial detection on each attempt. This corresponds with the implemented radar limitations of distance, target size, and number of actual detections against a given aircraft (probability of detection).

17 hours ago, AndrewDCS2005 said:

- TWS worked fine, and these two radar tracks were upgraded to system tracks automatically after TNDL correlation. But TMS right did nothing. So there is a bug in TMS.

Let me emphasize one of my final statements from my previous post:

"If the pilot wished to bug the far right target for an engagement, it must be one of the 10 system tracks that have been established from a radar track.

Once the cursor is slewed to that datalink track to steer the FCR scan volume to re-detect the target, it will still take a few moments before the target can be bugged as TOI, so that the FCR can establish that track as one of the 10 system tracks based on reliable radar track information."

The point being, is that the system track file may contain both radar tracks as well as offboard datalink tracks. However, only system tracks with sufficient radar track data can be bugged as a TOI for engagement. When an FCR detects an aircraft that is correlated with a datalink track within the system track file, it may not yet have sufficient radar track information for an engagement.

This isn't related to TWS mechanization in itself but rather how the changes in the DCS F-16's radar physics have altered how the radar detects and processes targets under various conditions. There have been changes this past year in the DCS F-16 and DCS F/A-18 radar simulations to improve their functionality with regards to radar aspect, probability of detection, false target rate, etc. You were using MiG-27's in this example. If using a larger target, such as an Il-76, the radar tracks in my tests were achieved faster, even at a greater range, allowing a relatively rapid TOI designation following initial detection.

[AndrewDCS2005]

@Raptor9 thank you for looking into this and keeping the discussion going - really appreciate it, and I'd like to get to the root of it.

However, your response is a bit puzzling. There are no questions or concerns on the time and range to have radar tracks. Of course, reducing scan volume and bars speeds it up, of course higher RCS leads to higher detection range, etc. This is all good and no issues here. The discussion is only about what happens after that, in TWS mode where radar tracks correlate with TNDL-provided tracks.

In the repro track above, I waited for FCR to build solid track targets (using official F-16 doc terminology), and then I waited a bit more (ignore the time, will wait as long as needed). You've mentioned these tracks due to TNDL correlation automatically upgrade to system targets, fine. FCR and HSD pages both show me as the pilot the tracks and targets are already there. Targets stayed within scan volume, and didn't go outside of it at all.

At this point, with FCR in TWS submode, cycling through these targets via TMS right and shooting simultaneously must work. There are only 2 targets, with radar tracks established - meets the criteria in your bolded quote above. And yet it doesn't work as shown in track above. This is a bug in the baseline scenario.

And what makes it weird is exactly the same setup and conditions and TWS works well without TNDL donors. Donor tracks do not alter physical ownship FCR capabilities and does not suddenly prevent FCR from detecting and building target tracks.

Edited January 15 by AndrewDCS2005

[Raptor9]

@AndrewDCS2005, if you go into your track replay that you provided above and turn the MIDS LVT knob to OFF before performing the same steps, you will see that it takes several moments after initial detection of the aircraft for the FCR to establish radar tracks, which can then be upgraded to radar-derived system tracks using TMS Right, or individually using TMS Forward. The exact same time to bug a TOI in TWS happens regardless of whether TNDL is enabled or not. The only difference is the symbology shown on the MFD.

As I stated above, when an aircraft detected by an FCR is correlated with an existing TNDL track, it inherits the datalink information from the offboard datalink track within the system track file to change the symbology, but the datalink information does not make it capable of being engaged if it has not established sufficient radar track information. As I described in my first post yesterday, the symbol characteristics of when this TNDL correlation occurs does not indicate that the track has sufficient radar track data to bug the aircraft as the target of interest for engagement. If the F-16 could utilize offboard datalink information to engage a target, the FCR would not be needed in the first place.

So again, there is no demonstrated difference in how long it takes the FCR to establish a radar track in TWS with or without TNDL datalink correlation, the only difference is how the symbology is presented.

[Delta134]

If you want to check whether targets have been upgraded to systems track correctly, you can press IFF OUT to get rid of any TNDL symbology. That will solve a lot of the confusion regarding if TMS Right should cycle or not. 

[AndrewDCS2005]

@Raptor9 sure, no need to explain there's no MSI in F-16 and FCR tracks are needed to bug the targets. Now with the word symbology being stressed, we're getting closer to the issue

 

Please let me ask a simple question: how does FCR (while in TWS and with presence of TNDL donored tracks) show track targets which have sufficient radar data? 

ED's own F-16 guide, TWS section, pages 344-345 says it is larger solid square for track targets, and larger empty square for system targets.

In the track (no pun intended) attached above, in the state where there's no sufficient radar data to build the tracks (and hence bugging and shooting is N/A), it shows first image below - with larger solid squares.

In the track (attached), in the state where there IS sufficient radar data and tracks are there, with subsequent bugging and shooting available, it shows second image below - with larger solid squares. 

How is the pilot supposed to know in the first case there's no track yet while FCR page says the opposite, with larger solid squares?

 

F16-TWS-TNDL-OK.trk

Edited January 16 by AndrewDCS2005

[Tblue282]

Thank you for that explanation!!   For the last few months learning the Viper I have struggled with this also, but have survived using RWS Dual Target Track since I was rarely engaging more than two anyway, but recently started to revisit this.   Good info !!

[AndrewDCS2005]

Still this is a bug with F-16 FCR implementation (when TNDL donors provide tracks and these get correlated).

FCR and HSD have wrong symbology - displaying search targets (not enough radar data, properly shown as small solid squares) as track targets (with enough radar data for bugging and subsequent shooting, properly shown as larger solid squares).

Hope this gets fixed in some upcoming patch.