user error INS Navigation bug

[BaronVonVaderham]

The INS in the F-16 is buggy. When I play on Multiplayer Servers, with the Nevada map, my INS does not treat waypoints correctly, either because of some misalignment of the map grid, or because it doesn't record well.

Basically, when I set a waypoint using the F10 coordinates of an object, the custom steerpoint does not take me there. Nor do the other steerpoints on the map already in place take me in the right direction.

I do go through the entire INS startup procedure (selecting NORM on startup). I always have to enter new coordinates, which always triggers a new INS startup. I let it run until it states /10 and blinks RDY, and then I set it to NAV.

Previous cross checks of the bullseye with wingmen confirms the correct bullseye numbers. Attached are the logs.

 

dcs.log

Edited December 28, 2023 by BaronVonVaderham

[BIGNEWY]

35 minutes ago, BaronVonVaderham said:

The INS in the F-16 is buggy. When I play on Multiplayer Servers, with the Nevada map, my INS does not treat waypoints correctly, either because of some misalignment of the map grid, or because it doesn't record well.

Basically, when I set a waypoint using the F10 coordinates of an object, the custom steerpoint does not take me there. Nor do the other steerpoints on the map already in place take me in the right direction.

I do go through the entire INS startup procedure (selecting NORM on startup). I always have to enter new coordinates, which always triggers a new INS startup. I let it run until it states /10 and blinks RDY, and then I set it to NAV.

Previous cross checks of the bullseye with wingmen confirms the correct bullseye numbers. Attached are the logs.

 

dcs.log 160.2 kB · 1 download

 

please remove all custom mods and run a repair or verify if steam 

Custom Mods
Hercules ver 6.8.2,DCS-SRS,Extra330SR,a-29b-community-main,RedK0d-Clickable-v1.1.5,SU-57 Felon Public Build,VSN_F104G,ECHO19_F16,VNAO_T45,main,BRONCO_V1.24,DCS-SK60-Mod,ECHO19_CORE_ULTIMATE,Edge 540,A-4E-C

Some errors in your log, maybe unrelated

Error
unexpected symbol near '7'
Line
6
Script
/sounds/57/sdef/aircrafts/engines/rollsroycemerlin/exb2.sdef
Error
unfinished string near '"Effects/Aircrafts/Engines/Su25InEngineR'''
Line
1
Script
/sounds/57/sdef/aircrafts/engines/su25inenginer.sdef
Error
unexpected symbol near '10'
Line
3
Script
/sounds/57/sdef/aircrafts/engines/rollsroycemerlin/exf2.sdef

 If possible please use a vanilla dcs instal and attach a track replay example showing the issue you are seeing. 

thank you 

[BaronVonVaderham]

I was informed by others that if you did anything, whatsoever, during alignment, even accidental stick input (eg because you have a zero deadzone with a sensitive stick, where breathing gives a 1% deflection), can cause alignment to fail.

the software should only consider actions that move the airplane (rearm, throttle input) as ins alignment failures, but anything that doesn’t move the plane, like stick input, bit tests, other startup activities, should not cause ins alignment issues. 
 

the errors in the log are vanilla installations of official modules that do not include dcs, the f-16, or the Nevada map (or any of the custom mods). Therefore they should be unrelated, but as developer of those official mods, ED knows this better than me.

Removing dcs and all mods entirely, and reinstalling everything again from scratch is not a reasonable solution, as this takes weeks. So let’s assume this was done after a fresh install, and start lookingat the code, thank you.

[itn]

6 hours ago, BaronVonVaderham said:

I do go through the entire INS startup procedure (selecting NORM on startup). I always have to enter new coordinates, which always triggers a new INS startup. I let it run until it states /10 and blinks RDY, and then I set it to NAV.

Can you clarify this? It should start with current coordinates and normally you would only have to verify them with ENTR. 

Are you using the correct coordinate system? And how big is the error when navigating? Is there GPS available and enabled on the mission? A track file would be helpful. 

Quote

5 hours ago, BaronVonVaderham said:

the software should only consider actions that move the airplane (rearm, throttle input) as ins alignment failures, but anything that doesn’t move the plane, like stick input, bit tests, other startup activities, should not cause ins alignment issues. 

Stick input and FLCS BIT might shake the plane enough to cause INS alignment to fail. However, when it fails it simply stops and will never get to /10 and flashing RDY. You said you checked it so that shouldn’t be an issue here. 
 

With all that being said, you should follow the recommendation and try without mods. It seems some mods cause issues in current versions. 

Edited December 29, 2023 by itn
Add text about mods

[rob10]

5 hours ago, BaronVonVaderham said:

Removing dcs and all mods entirely, and reinstalling everything again from scratch is not a reasonable solution, as this takes weeks. So let’s assume this was done after a fresh install, and start lookingat the code, thank you.

No one is asking you to remove and reinstall everything from scratch.  Move the mods out of DCS and/or saved game folder and run a repair on DCS and you're done.  If that doesn't work, rename your saved games folder in case something got left behind in there.  Then you can start moving mods back and see what's causing an issue.

There have been enough confirmed issues with mods and the latest patch (including people who swore they had none or that mods couldn't be the problem that came back and admitted it was the fault of mods) that it's not at all unreasonable for ED to expect you to at least remove them before they spend more time looking into your issue.

[BaronVonVaderham]

7 hours ago, itn said:

Can you clarify this? It should start with current coordinates and normally you would only have to verify them with ENTR. 

Are you using the correct coordinate system? And how big is the error when navigating? Is there GPS available and enabled on the mission? A track file would be helpful. 

Stick input and FLCS BIT might shake the plane enough to cause INS alignment to fail. However, when it fails it simply stops and will never get to /10 and flashing RDY. You said you checked it so that shouldn’t be an issue here. 
 

With all that being said, you should follow the recommendation and try without mods. It seems some mods cause issues in current versions. 

 

The coordinates identified at the start of alignment are slightly off, but close enough to be acceptable. The symptoms occur regardless of I use the “current” coordinates, or replace them with more accurate coordinates. 
 

I’m not sure how it’s possible to use an incorrect coordinate system. If you refer to N/S/E/W, then yes, I’m sure I use correct lat/long direction, I.e. N and W. 

the deviation, I’m not sure, but we’re talking miles. I was about to spot the target area and the steerpoint together and the steerpoint that had the target coordinates was  aprox 3  miles south East from the target. 
GPS was on. 
however, since you mentioned gps, I did find that there’s a datalink bug confirmed by others, where there is no datalink from startup onwards, unless you go into the DED and cycle the GPS off and on. It is possible that there is a relationship between the datalink bug and the behaviour in experiencing. 
As for track file, the log is in the first post above (I’m assuming that is the track file? Not aware of another file. I got this from the logs folder in saved games).

I can move the mods out of the saved games folder like suggested by @rob10 (good suggestion, didn’t realise it could be as easy as that).

I’ll keep in mind about bit and FLCS test. I also need to do something about my joystick as it’s easy to deflect. 

 

7 hours ago, rob10 said:

No one is asking you to remove and reinstall everything from scratch.  Move the mods out of DCS and/or saved game folder and run a repair on DCS and you're done.  If that doesn't work, rename your saved games folder in case something got left behind in there.  Then you can start moving mods back and see what's causing an issue.

There have been enough confirmed issues with mods and the latest patch (including people who swore they had none or that mods couldn't be the problem that came back and admitted it was the fault of mods) that it's not at all unreasonable for ED to expect you to at least remove them before they spend more time looking into your issue.

Appreciate the suggestion, didn’t realise it was that easy. Mind you, ED actually did state in their response doing a fresh (vanilla) install, which means uninstalling/registration everything. 
I’ll check the mods thing as I’ve had failures to join multiplayer games caused by mods in one of the latest patched

[BaronVonVaderham]

 

I can't post track files as they are bigger than 50MB

[BaronVonVaderham]

did another flight, this time very careful not to touch any controls, and although not perfect on target, it looks like my joystick is the culprit and causes misalignment through slight movement. INS was about 100-200 meters off target, which may be due to default coordinates not being accurate enough. The Winwing stick I use has quite a wobbly center, and I probably did not set enough deadzone to cancel out input just by  touching my chair it is bolted on. So, I am ordering the damper/spring kit from Winwing, and will try to get my hands on some nyogel 767a to grease the dampers with, and hopefully that will make the center tight yet smooth, and kill wobbling around on a breath. 

However, the algorithms used on the F-16 in DCS are way too sensitive if a wobbly stick causes a misalignment. A few millimeter deflection of control surfaces does not move the aircraft sufficiently to affect INS alignment. So this is an improvement to be made (Since we're talking about a game, and it cannot be expected for everyone to have an actual F-16 fssb stick, I think this is where some consideration is due in the software, to prevent unnecessary troubleshooting).

Conclusion is: My specific setup revealed an over sensitive INS alignment algorithm

 

[Yurgon]

8 hours ago, BaronVonVaderham said:

As for track file, the log is in the first post above (I’m assuming that is the track file? Not aware of another file. I got this from the logs folder in saved games).

A track is a recording of all player inputs that can be replayed in real time within DCS. At the end of each mission, you get the debriefing dialog that allows you to "Save Track".

The log files aren't tracks.

Please keep such a track as short as possible, and don't use time acceleration during the mission that you use for the track.

8 hours ago, BaronVonVaderham said:

Mind you, ED actually did state in their response doing a fresh (vanilla) install, which means uninstalling/registration everything. 

I thought it was very obvious what Bignewy meant by "please remove all custom mods and run a repair or verify if steam".

"Vanilla", as far as I understand it, means something along the lines of "original and unmodified base game", and "Vanilla install" was referring to an installation that's clean and unmodified; it did not refer to the process of uninstalling and reinstalling all of DCS.

In order to ensure you have a vanilla install, please remove all custom mods and run a repair or verify if steam.

8 hours ago, BaronVonVaderham said:

I can't post track files as they are bigger than 50MB

Can you use Google Drive or some other free service to upload the track and post the link here? Be sure to allow anyone with the link access.

1 hour ago, BaronVonVaderham said:

A few millimeter deflection of control surfaces does not move the aircraft sufficiently to affect INS alignment.

I'm about as far from an expert on the F-16 as it gets and don't know how sensitive the INS alignment is to control surface deflection.

However, with the force sensing sidestick of the real aircraft, it would probably be rather rare for pilots to enter any accidental control surface inputs before the alignment is finished. So if this kind of input screws up the alignment, then don't input anything.

[itn]

50 minutes ago, BaronVonVaderham said:

did another flight, this time very careful not to touch any controls, and although not perfect on target, it looks like my joystick is the culprit and causes misalignment through slight movement. INS was about 100-200 meters off target, which may be due to default coordinates not being accurate enough. The Winwing stick I use has quite a wobbly center, and I probably did not set enough deadzone to cancel out input just by  touching my chair it is bolted on. So, I am ordering the damper/spring kit from Winwing, and will try to get my hands on some nyogel 767a to grease the dampers with, and hopefully that will make the center tight yet smooth, and kill wobbling around on a breath. 

However, the algorithms used on the F-16 in DCS are way too sensitive if a wobbly stick causes a misalignment. A few millimeter deflection of control surfaces does not move the aircraft sufficiently to affect INS alignment. So this is an improvement to be made (Since we're talking about a game, and it cannot be expected for everyone to have an actual F-16 fssb stick, I think this is where some consideration is due in the software, to prevent unnecessary troubleshooting).

Conclusion is: My specific setup revealed an over sensitive INS alignment algorithm

 

That's unlikely to be the reason. I did mention earlier the thing about shaking the plane with stick, but I also mentioned you don't get to /10 and flashing ALIGN/RDY if the alignment fails because of movement. I find it quite unlikely that your stick jitter is the reason. In practice, on a level ground etc., you can throw the stick around quite mightily and run the FLCS BIT without affecting the INS alignment.

There's absolutely nothing to work with here (no tracks, no video, you didn't even mention if you removed the mods already or not), so I'll just say great if it works for you now well enough.

[BaronVonVaderham]

I’ll see if I can get those logs available through some online storage means. 

[BaronVonVaderham]

Here’s a track file of today that shows my problem. 
And yes today it went wrong again

CvLSK_RED_FLAG_22-1_2.8.5.2NoscriptsVisibleTGT-20231230-151040.trk

Edited December 30, 2023 by BaronVonVaderham

[-=Shin=-]

I have exactly the same problems...sigh..i hope this will be fixed soon

[itn]

On 12/30/2023 at 5:39 PM, BaronVonVaderham said:

Here’s a track file of today that shows my problem. 
And yes today it went wrong again

CvLSK_RED_FLAG_22-1_2.8.5.2NoscriptsVisibleTGT-20231230-151040.trk 30.34 MB · 4 downloads

 

That's a big track. It's always better to do as short as possible a track where you can reproduce the issue. Nevertheless, I watched the start and unless you fixed it later in the track by doing a new INS alignment, I found an issue: You're using the wrong procedure for INS normal alignment.

When using the normal (NORM) alignment, you must enter or verify (with ENTR) the current position within 2 minutes of moving the INS knob to NORM. So the correct process is:

1. Switch INS knob to NORM.
2. Within 2 minutes: Enter correct LAT LNG and SALT. If they're already correct, as they usually are, just press ENTR on all those three lines, verifying the current values.
3. Wait for about 8 minutes for align to complete. Alignment is complete when status is /10 and RDY is flashing.
4. Switch INS knob to NAV.

What I saw in your track was as follows. This is as accurate as I remember as I only watched it once. In any case the problem was clear and you could briefly see the borked alignment status on DED:

1. Switched INS knob to NORM.
2. Waited for the alignment to go to /10.
3. Verified the coordinates with ENTR. Verifying the coordinates after 2 minutes into the alignment process resets the alignment and it starts from zero. You can see the time and status resetting on DED.
4. Switched INS knob to NAV.
5. Last INS status I saw on the DED was something like 0.1/96 so completely borked.

Hope this helps. See DCS F-16C Early Access Guide p. 172 for more information.

[BaronVonVaderham]

5 hours ago, itn said:

That's a big track. It's always better to do as short as possible a track where you can reproduce the issue. Nevertheless, I watched the start and unless you fixed it later in the track by doing a new INS alignment, I found an issue: You're using the wrong procedure for INS normal alignment.

When using the normal (NORM) alignment, you must enter or verify (with ENTR) the current position within 2 minutes of moving the INS knob to NORM. So the correct process is:

1. Switch INS knob to NORM.
2. Within 2 minutes: Enter correct LAT LNG and SALT. If they're already correct, as they usually are, just press ENTR on all those three lines, verifying the current values.
3. Wait for about 8 minutes for align to complete. Alignment is complete when status is /10 and RDY is flashing.
4. Switch INS knob to NAV.

What I saw in your track was as follows. This is as accurate as I remember as I only watched it once. In any case the problem was clear and you could briefly see the borked alignment status on DED:

1. Switched INS knob to NORM.
2. Waited for the alignment to go to /10.
3. Verified the coordinates with ENTR. Verifying the coordinates after 2 minutes into the alignment process resets the alignment and it starts from zero. You can see the time and status resetting on DED.
4. Switched INS knob to NAV.
5. Last INS status I saw on the DED was something like 0.1/96 so completely borked.

Hope this helps. See DCS F-16C Early Access Guide p. 172 for more information.

Looks like that might be my misunderstanding of the alignment process. I was under the impression it had to be verified within 2 minutes of completing the INS procedure. 
that probably explains why it always goes wrong. 
i actually also tried without pressing regret and just setting to nav after 8 minutes, without verifying. Which I guess is also wrong based on what you explained. 
 

can you confirm if stored alignment needs verifying too? I never do, but it seems to work well.

[itn]

2 hours ago, BaronVonVaderham said:

can you confirm if stored alignment needs verifying too? I never do, but it seems to work well.

With stored heading alignment it's the opposite: you must not enter coordinates (meaning you should not press ENTR at all on any of the three lines).

Nevertheless it's good practice to check that the coordinates match to the position on Ctrl-Y infobar / F10 map. Again, not pressing ENTR, just checking visually.

[Lord Vader]

After review and with @itnfine analysis, it seems there was an error while conducting the Normal alignment procedures. 

Great to see the community lending a hand.