Interactive manual - functionality to be available in other modules?

[Simo]

One of the QOL features shown in the F4 trailer that I'm most excited about is the interactive manual. IMO this will make the process of learning a module much easier and more enjoyable (especially for VR users).

 

I'm curious if this feature is an extension of the existing in-game kneeboard functionality, or has required some kind of "core engine" update? Will it be possible for modders to implement similar interactive manuals for other modules, or would SDK access be required?

 

I feel PDF is an outdated documentation format, except perhaps for the small minority that prefer to print physical copies. Props to HB for blazing a trail and finally implementing something more user friendly!

Edited January 2, 2024 by Simo

[Rudel_chw]

1 hour ago, Simo said:

I feel PDF is an outdated documentation format, except perhaps for the small minority that prefer to print physical copies.

I much prefer to store all the pdf manuals that I have collected over the years on a cloud drive and read them on my Tablet .. they are great when learning as I can write annotations on them, or highlight the main ideas, and then find those notes quickly … and I’ve never printed a manual, just thinking of the trees makes me ill 

 

[Simo]

1 hour ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

I much prefer to store all the pdf manuals that I have collected over the years on a cloud drive and read them on my Tablet .. they are great when learning as I can write annotations on them, or highlight the main ideas, and then find those notes quickly … and I’ve never printed a manual, just thinking of the trees makes me ill 

 

Looks like a good system, provided you have a large tablet and don't mind taking off your VR headset every time you need to reference it.

Personally I find the main limitation with PDF format manuals is the lack of responsive formatting. For study outside the game, the fixed format of PDFs means readability on anything smaller than an A4 size tablet is not great. I don't own a large tablet myself, and during most of the free time I have available to study a manual the only device available is a phone. Reading an A4 formatted PDF requires more zooming, horizontal scrolling and screen rotating than ideal. IMO, even reading a PDF on a desktop is clunkier than a well formatted, responsive web page.

Inability to easily access the manuals in-game is another current drawback. Granted, you can export the PDFs to images and drop them in the kneeboard folder (or use OpenKneeboard), but the process is somewhat clunky and the formatting and lack of interactivity are still suboptimal.

It looks like Heatblur's approach should remedy both these issues for the F-4, but I'd be keen to see a similar solution ported to other modules (happy to have a crack at it myself if the right tools are available!).

Edited January 2, 2024 by Simo
Grammar/coherence

[Rudel_chw]

41 minutes ago, Simo said:

Looks like a good system, provided you have a large tablet and don't mind taking off your VR headset every time you need to reference it.

 

I'm not using VR anymore, as my Oculus Rift is now obsolete and current VR sets available on my country are too costly for my budget. I purchased a 2nd hand 2015 iPad Pro of 12.9 inches ... in spite of its 9 years of use, it still works great both for web browsing and for reading. I agree that an A4 PDF on a phone is not practical, but so are most equivalent solutions, I use my phone for just communication.

[Zabuzard]

4 hours ago, Simo said:

I'm curious if this feature is an extension of the existing in-game kneeboard functionality, or has required some kind of "core engine" update? Will it be possible for modders to implement similar interactive manuals for other modules, or would SDK access be required?

The way we did it is quite custom and I doubt a lot of people would go the same technical route soon. I can not talk too much on the details before release, but it had an initial upfront cost of several months to add this "technology". We also use it for the Jester Wheel, Grease Pencil and more.

We will also add it for the Tomcat, but Viggen likely wont work.

Edited January 2, 2024 by Zabuzard

[LordOrion]

2 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

I much prefer to store all the pdf manuals that I have collected over the years on a cloud drive and read them on my Tablet .. they are great when learning as I can write annotations on them, or highlight the main ideas, and then find those notes quickly … and I’ve never printed a manual, just thinking of the trees makes me ill 

Me too.

However, having the possibility to access the manual contextually by just clicking on one cockpit item looks to be a really handy feature.

[Simo]

2 hours ago, Zabuzard said:

The way we did it is quite custom and I doubt a lot of people would go the same technical route soon. I can not talk too much on the details before release, but it had an initial upfront cost of several months to add this "technology". We also use it for the Jester Wheel, Grease Pencil and more.

We will also add it for the Tomcat, but Viggen likely wont work.

 

Thank you for the insight. It must be hard to justify this level of effort on ancillary QOL features as it's probably not a major selling point for a module. Another example of HB going the extra mile I guess!

But I reckon having an accessible in-game manual will make the process of learning the module in detail a lot more enjoyable and hopefully translate to users spending more time in it. Fingers crossed this sets the future standard, and other developers see the benefit and add similar functionality to their modules.

[Zabuzard]

But I reckon having an accessible in-game manual will make the process of learning the module in detail a lot more enjoyable and hopefully translate to users spending more time in it.

yeah exactly. pretty much what we were thinking as well. when u forgot what that one switch on the radar panel was doing again, or how that bit test worked again. or what that warning light was trying to tell u.
i also used it a lot just to have a look at the startup/shutdown or weapon procedures whenever touching a new topic. kinda like what many of us used the kneeboard for.

[joker62]

18 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

I much prefer to store all the pdf manuals that I have collected over the years on a cloud drive and read them on my Tablet .. they are great when learning as I can write annotations on them, or highlight the main ideas, and then find those notes quickly … and I’ve never printed a manual, just thinking of the trees makes me ill 

 

@Rudel_chw Please check your PM. Thanks

[Elf1606688794]

On 1/2/2024 at 10:48 AM, Simo said:

Personally I find the main limitation with PDF format manuals is the lack of responsive formatting.

What I don't like is the inability to edit them or make notes without paying for a PDF reader. I have two monitors for my PC so I can have a  PDF manual open while I'm flying if I so choose but I can't make notations in it without paying for a reader. I simply don't use PDFs enough to make paying for a reader worthwhile to me. 

Edited January 3, 2024 by Elf1606688794

[McVittees]

You need something accessible offline. I have limited PC flying time so a manual in the cockpit is useful, but secondary to one accessible outside it.

Edited January 3, 2024 by McVittees

[Zabuzard]

You need something accessible offline. I have limited PC flying time so a manual in the cockpit is useful, but secondary to one accessible outside it.

Our in-game manual works offline and is also accessible locally from within your file explorer.

That said, we will also host it online and additionally have a PDF version as well.

[Rudel_chw]

2 hours ago, Elf1606688794 said:

What I don't like is the inability to edit them or make notes without paying for a PDF reader. I have two monitors for my PC so I can have a  PDF manual open while I'm flying if I so choose but I can't make notations in it without paying for a reader. I simply don't use PDFs enough to make paying for a reader worthwhile to me. 

I don’t get it, you can spend hundreds on hardware to run dcs, plus more on the modules, the two monitors, etc … yet you can’t pay for a pdf utility?  
 

 I spent 7 euro on the pdf app for my iPad on 2010, it has served me fine for almost 14 years, moving from one ipad to the next easily (along with my pdf documents) … how can’t it be worthwhile?

[Elf1606688794]

17 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

I don’t get it, you can spend hundreds on hardware to run dcs, plus more on the modules, the two monitors, etc … yet you can’t pay for a pdf utility?  
 

 I spent 7 euro on the pdf app for my iPad on 2010, it has served me fine for almost 14 years, moving from one ipad to the next easily (along with my pdf documents) … how can’t it be worthwhile?

I don't use the PDF utility enough to make it worth spending the money.

I use the DCS modules, PC and flight gear enough to make it worth the money I've spent.

It's not that I can't pay for it, I won't pay for it because I don't use PDF's enough to need it.

*Edit* What PDF app did you buy that only cost 7 Euros? Adobe wants a monthly subscription and there is no way I'm doing that.

I have the second monitor so that I can open the appropriate template I made for whichever aircraft I'm flying at the time. (I used LibreOffice's spreadsheet to make a template that I fill out for my stick/throttle.) 

Edited January 4, 2024 by Elf1606688794

[Rudel_chw]

44 minutes ago, Elf1606688794 said:

What PDF app did you buy that only cost 7 Euros?

Goodreader, for use on my iPad:

 

https://goodreader.com

 

 

 

[Elf1606688794]

I don't have an iPad and it looks like that is only available on the App Store. I will never use something like that on my iPhone because with my old eyes there just isn't enough real estate available to use it to read documents. I'm glad it works for you though.

[Rudel_chw]

19 hours ago, Elf1606688794 said:

 I will never use something like that on my iPhone because with my old eyes there just isn't enough real estate available to use it to read documents. 

 

Fully agree ... on my case the larger iPad was very expensive if purchased new, but the price for a 2nd hand unit was much much lower, and its size is pretty comparable with a large book, like this:

 

 

I use it for a lot of uses, but mostly media consumption, music listening and DCS companion, for reading I employ these Apps, most free but of course the books and magazines have to be purchased for Kindle, Zinio and Pocketmags. For pdf books and magazines that I find on the Internet I employ Calibre, which is also free:

 

 

This is what Zinio looks like, I use it for magazine reading, but I agree that traditional magazines will probably extinguish soon:

 

 

For aviation magazines I prefer Pocketmags:

 

 

And this is Calibre, which is not actually a reader but more like a database, the reading is done on Goodreader:

 

 

So, for me PDF is far from a useless format 

Best regards,

 

 

Eduardo

 

 

[Elf1606688794]

You certainly get your money's worth from your PDF reader.

[freehand]

1 hour ago, Elf1606688794 said:

You certainly get your money's worth from your PDF reader.

Have tried libre office you can edit pdfs free program never tried it my self.

[Rudel_chw]

On 1/5/2024 at 11:03 PM, freehand said:

Have tried libre office you can edit pdfs free program never tried it my self.

 

I haven't tried it, as I don't actually want to edit the text, I only need to highlight text sections, and add sticky notes on the document border, and Goodreader does both.

[freehand]

11 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

I haven't tried it, as I don't actually want to edit the text, I only need to highlight text sections, and add sticky notes on the document border, and Goodreader does both.

I was responding to EIf1606688794

[Elf1606688794]

1 hour ago, freehand said:

I was responding to EIf1606688794

I have LibreOffice but I didn't know you can edit pdf's with it.

[Chaffee]

On 1/3/2024 at 1:52 PM, Elf1606688794 said:

What I don't like is the inability to edit them or make notes without paying for a PDF reader. I have two monitors for my PC so I can have a  PDF manual open while I'm flying if I so choose but I can't make notations in it without paying for a reader. I simply don't use PDFs enough to make paying for a reader worthwhile to me. 

 

If you want a free online option for pdf markup and editing, Kami is excellent.

[Elf1606688794]

On 1/31/2024 at 3:16 PM, Chaffee said:

If you want a free online option for pdf markup and editing, Kami is excellent.

Thanks, I'll check it out. LibreOffice is another option I was pointed towards and it's working for some worksheets that came with a YouTube course I subscribed to but it seems less than perfect so far but it might be the PDFs and not LibreOffice.