correct as-is CAT I/III Question

[Gregkar]

I noticed that when i am selecting just 2 drop tanks and nothing else, or 2 a/a missiles + 2 drop tanks, or 4 a/a missiles + 2 drop tanks or even 2 amraams+ 4 sidewinders + 2 drop tanks the jet requires CAT I stores config otherwise if CAT 3 is selected i get a stores config error.
The only Α/Α loadout that allows CAT3 is 4x amraams plus 2 heaters plus 2 drop tanks or 6x amraams plus 2 drop tanks

Now correct me if i am wrong (obviously i am) but according to what i know plus various sources online plus DCS F-16C manual, even a clean F-16 with just 2x 370gal. tanks should require CAT 3

STORES CONFIG Switch. Sets the FLCS mode of operation based on external wing stores. When set to CAT III the FLCS limits the angle of attack and onset rates in order to increase departure resistance. This switch has no effect when the FLCS gains are set to takeoff/landing configuration (landing gear deployed or air refueling door open).

• CAT I. Used for air-to-air loadouts without external wing tanks.

• CAT III. Used for air-to-ground loadouts or when equipped with external wing tanks.

Edited January 5, 2024 by Gregkar

[silverdevil]

On 1/3/2024 at 12:07 PM, Gregkar said:

I noticed that when i am selecting just 2 drop tanks and nothing else, or 2 a/a missiles + 2 drop tanks, or 4 a/a missiles + 2 drop tanks or even 2 amraams+ 4 sidewinders + 2 drop tanks the jet requires CAT I stores config otherwise if CAT 3 is selected i get a stores config error.
The only Α/Α loadout that allows CAT3 is 4x amraams plus 2 heaters plus 2 drop tanks or 6x amraams plus 2 drop tanks

Now correct me if i am wrong (obviously i am) but according to what i know plus various sources online plus DCS F-16C manual, even a clean F-16 with just 2x 370gal. tanks should require CAT 3

STORES CONFIG Switch. Sets the FLCS mode of operation based on external wing stores. When set to CAT III the FLCS limits the angle of attack and onset rates in order to increase departure resistance. This switch has no effect when the FLCS gains are set to takeoff/landing configuration (landing gear deployed or air refueling door open).

• CAT I. Used for air-to-air loadouts without external wing tanks.

• CAT III. Used for air-to-ground loadouts or when equipped with external wing tanks.

 

i am guessing, and never noticed myself, its the fuel tanks. they are over 2000 lbs full. it could also be a bug. CAT 1 and 3 limit AOA and roll and G i believe. its not exactly about weight. it prevents from over stressing the AC.

Edited January 6, 2024 by silverdevil

[Aquorys]

Any external tanks on the plane and you're a CAT III, unless it's only the centerline fuel tank and it's empty.

Mavericks, HARMs, bombs, etc. -> CAT III

ECM pod, TGP, etc. -> CAT III

Long story short, anything else than AMRAAMs and Sidewinders on the aircraft, and it's going to be a CAT III, and will also require G to be kept within somewhere in the range of 4.5 to 7.5, depending on what exactly the loadout is.

[SickSidewinder9]

Wait, where are you getting that a centerline tank is cat 3?  G restriction maybe, but does it shift the CG forward?  As I understand it, the switch is there due to shift in CG cause by certain heavy stores on the wings.  Especially the inner wing pylons.  Especially full tanks on the inner wing pylons.

Are you sure you're not confusing flight envelope restrictions with cat 1/3?

 

And where is 2?  Did someone murder 2?! 

[SickSidewinder9]

Well, now I'm even more confused.
Also, it wanted me to be in cat3 with rocket pods (the single ones with 19 in them) on the inner wing pylons.  IDK, I just ignored that one, lol.

[SpecterDC13]

So far it is correct behaviour.  And as far as pods go they are not CAT I they are CAT III.  It is on the pilot to ensure he is in the correct CAT regardless of the caution light coming on.  If you have two tanks only and nothing else that is still CAT III and you should ignore the caution light. 

If you have any asymetric load even if such condition develops later in flight (to include any A2A loadout) it is a CAT III condition and you should again ignore the caution.

 

Keep in mind the SMS does not register the TGP or HTS as an external store so if you are carrying one it isn't going to throw a caution at you, but it is on you to ensure you are in the correct CAT for it.  

 

Remember the CAT switch just limits AOA and roll/rudder limits and is NOT a G limiter. You can still pull 9G in CAT III if the right conditions are met, but again it is on the pilot to know what the actual G limit is on for the current configuration and is his responsibility to not exceed that G limit.  So if you have an A2G loadout your max G is probably gonna be around 5.5G to 7.3G depending on your loadout as a whole. That limit can increase as you drop muns but again it is on you to know how much it increases.

[Gregkar]

16 hours ago, SpecterDC13 said:

So far it is correct behaviour.  And as far as pods go they are not CAT I they are CAT III.  It is on the pilot to ensure he is in the correct CAT regardless of the caution light coming on.  If you have two tanks only and nothing else that is still CAT III and you should ignore the caution light. 

If you have any asymetric load even if such condition develops later in flight (to include any A2A loadout) it is a CAT III condition and you should again ignore the caution.

 

Keep in mind the SMS does not register the TGP or HTS as an external store so if you are carrying one it isn't going to throw a caution at you, but it is on you to ensure you are in the correct CAT for it.  

 

Remember the CAT switch just limits AOA and roll/rudder limits and is NOT a G limiter. You can still pull 9G in CAT III if the right conditions are met, but again it is on the pilot to know what the actual G limit is on for the current configuration and is his responsibility to not exceed that G limit.  So if you have an A2G loadout your max G is probably gonna be around 5.5G to 7.3G depending on your loadout as a whole. That limit can increase as you drop muns but again it is on you to know how much it increases.

so even a clean F-16 with no tanks whatsoever, but with ANY of these: TGP, HTS, ECM pods is CAT 3?

[Wizard_03]

Hard to believe the ECM pod is CAT III on the centerline station. Centerline external tank is not according to the manual, and it's both bigger and heavier then the short pods. 

 

The TGP and HTS are CAT III certainly. 

Edited January 8, 2024 by Wizard_03

[Falconeer]

21 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

He's wrong! 5, 5L and 5R stations are CAT I.

And what @SpecterDC13 forgot so say as well, is that CAT III is mainly limited to AOA, which is between 16 and 18 deg (depends on the gross weight). DCS currently has that implemented, but is always to 18deg (it does not vary between 16 and 18).

Don't know who answered that as Solution, go figure.

 

It's not the station which is the issue, it's what you mount to that station.

 

You can hang sta. 1 2 3 7 8 9 with A-A missiles and its still Cat 1. Replace 3 and 7 with a Mk 82 and it becomes Cat 3, same station, different load

1 hour ago, Wizard_03 said:

Hard to believe the ECM pod is CAT III on the centerline station. Centerline external tank is not according to the manual, and it's both bigger and heavier then the short pods. 

 

The TGP and HTS are CAT III certainly. 

 

Centerline tank is 100% Cat 1. We use that config for all our BFM training (in RL)

Edited January 8, 2024 by Falconeer

[Falconeer]

1 minute ago, skywalker22 said:

I know. But all whats in stations 5, 5L and 5R is CAT 1.

At least on Block 50.

Not true, the Sniper pod for example is Cat 3. During BFM training we remove the pods to prevent damage due to high G forces during training

[Wizard_03]

5 hours ago, Falconeer said:

Centerline tank is 100% Cat 1. We use that config for all our BFM training (in RL)

 

But the ECM pod on centerline station is CAT III? 

 

So I'm getting a stores config caution, with 4 AAMs two wing tanks and ECM pod on centerline, with the switch set to CAT III. Is that correct behavior? Because that is a CAT III load. 

Edited January 8, 2024 by Wizard_03

[Gregkar]

8 hours ago, Wizard_03 said:

But the ECM pod on centerline station is CAT III? 

 

So I'm getting a stores config caution, with 4 AAMs two wing tanks and ECM pod on centerline, with the switch set to CAT III. Is that correct behavior? Because that is a CAT III load. 

 

yeah, strange isn't it? can't someone from ED answer this? what was their source for the stores config?

[SpecterDC13]

I will verify the ECM pods and centerline, but I am 99% sure that ECM pods are CAT III.  But I'm pretty sure the ECM pods are CAT III due to the design of them.  They may be lighter, than a centerline, but the components inside can be more sensitive to higher G limits.  Which again, the CAT switch limits AOA it does NOT limit the amount of G you can pull.  Under the right conditions you can still hit 9Gs.  The switch just essentially makes it harder to do by limiting how much AOA you can pull at once. A centerline can have a higher G limit because well it is just a tank with fuel and no special components inside of it.

It doesn't matter block of the airframe on whether or not something is considered CAT I or III.  Any TGP (lightning or sniper) and HTS pod is CAT III.  Again the SMS memory does not account for anything loaded onto 5L or 5R.  Anything loaded there essentially throws a 1 letting the SMS know something is there but it does not say what it is and therefore does not tell the SMS "hey i need to be CAT III".  It is on the pilot to make sure he stays in the correct CAT regardless of the caution light.

If it was just the TGP pylon loaded to the jet (so without the actual TGP) then the pilot would be cleared for 9Gs as the pylon itself is rated for 12Gs.  But for obvious reasons the G limit is 7.5G with the TGP due to the strength of the bolts that hold the TGP to the pylon.

Most units (if not all) will limit their pilots to say 7.3G during training exercises in order to make the aircraft last longer. Combat situations are a totally different story of course. 

Needless to say there are so many factors that play into what makes a certain loadout a CAT III vs CAT I. And that can be either the -2 or even unit enforced. 

8 hours ago, Wizard_03 said:

So I'm getting a stores config caution, with 4 AAMs two wing tanks and ECM pod on centerline, with the switch set to CAT III. Is that correct behavior? Because that is a CAT III load. 

 

Yes, that is correct behaviour. 

[SpecterDC13]

34 minutes ago, Gregkar said:

can't someone from ED answer this? what was their source for the stores config?

Pretty sure they have access to a -2 TO along with access to manuals you will not find so easily online.  There is a reason they don't post the manuals/TOs they are getting their information from. 

[Gregkar]

I will stick to what i know which is basically what @SpecterDC13 describes and will just ignore the stores config warning light.

[SpecterDC13]

 

3 minutes ago, Gregkar said:

I will stick to what i know which is basically what @SpecterDC13 describes and will just ignore the stores config warning light.

Yes, if you know it is a CAT III condition then ignore it.  

Think of it like this, if you go into a contested AO and have to drop tanks but still have your bombs on you are still in CAT III because of those bombs still on your jet and you will not get the light.  Once you drop those bombs that light coming on will or should remind you to jet you to check your loadout and if you dont have pods then you are good for CAT I then.

[Gregkar]

@SpecterDC13 do you know an F-16 with only CFT's and an F-16 with CFT's plus centerline what CAT is it?

[SpecterDC13]

@Gregkar I do not as I do not work on those specific 16s. USAF does not use CFTs.

[Falconeer]

13 hours ago, Wizard_03 said:

But the ECM pod on centerline station is CAT III? 

 

So I'm getting a stores config caution, with 4 AAMs two wing tanks and ECM pod on centerline, with the switch set to CAT III. Is that correct behavior? Because that is a CAT III load. 

 

Not sure about the ECM, ill have to look that up, but that config is 100% Cat 3

Edited January 9, 2024 by Falconeer

[Wizard_03]

8 hours ago, SpecterDC13 said:

I will verify the ECM pods and centerline, but I am 99% sure that ECM pods are CAT III.  But I'm pretty sure the ECM pods are CAT III due to the design of them.  They may be lighter, than a centerline, but the components inside can be more sensitive to higher G limits.  Which again, the CAT switch limits AOA it does NOT limit the amount of G you can pull.  Under the right conditions you can still hit 9Gs.  The switch just essentially makes it harder to do by limiting how much AOA you can pull at once. A centerline can have a higher G limit because well it is just a tank with fuel and no special components inside of it.

It doesn't matter block of the airframe on whether or not something is considered CAT I or III.  Any TGP (lightning or sniper) and HTS pod is CAT III.  Again the SMS memory does not account for anything loaded onto 5L or 5R.  Anything loaded there essentially throws a 1 letting the SMS know something is there but it does not say what it is and therefore does not tell the SMS "hey i need to be CAT III".  It is on the pilot to make sure he stays in the correct CAT regardless of the caution light.

If it was just the TGP pylon loaded to the jet (so without the actual TGP) then the pilot would be cleared for 9Gs as the pylon itself is rated for 12Gs.  But for obvious reasons the G limit is 7.5G with the TGP due to the strength of the bolts that hold the TGP to the pylon.

Most units (if not all) will limit their pilots to say 7.3G during training exercises in order to make the aircraft last longer. Combat situations are a totally different story of course. 

Needless to say there are so many factors that play into what makes a certain loadout a CAT III vs CAT I. And that can be either the -2 or even unit enforced. 

Yes, that is correct behaviour. 

 

8 hours ago, Gregkar said:

I will stick to what i know which is basically what @SpecterDC13 describes and will just ignore the stores config warning light.

 

2 hours ago, Falconeer said:

Not sure about the ECM, ill have to look that up, but that config is 100% Cat 3

 

Thanks all! I will ignore the light, pretty interesting quark of the viper. Sounds like the SMS and FBW are still pretty old and don't just figure themselves out like you might expect from a more modern system. 

I do know that centerline stores can cause instability at high AOA in most jets so I guess it's not that surprising that ECM might be CAT III. Given the vipers dislike of high AOA in general.

Edited January 9, 2024 by Wizard_03

[Aquorys]

It's generally a good idea to fly in CAT III with any heavy loads, high drag loads or asymmetric loads. Any stores on 3/4/6/7 with gear down or trailing edge flaps deployed, and anything with an AoA of more than 15 degrees becomes a prohibited maneuver. Similarly, excessive pitch at low speed in a high-drag configuration in CAT I can make the aircraft depart, and can sometimes be unrecoverable. There are just so many limits and things you're not supposed to do in a multitude of configurations that you probably can't even find anyone who can tell you all of them off the top of their head.

Baseline being, don't do anything radical if there is any chance to avoid it. Don't pull the stick like an idiot (aka the guys in the Top Gun movie), don't roll at max rate, don't roll continuously, don't fly too slow, don't kick the rudder with asymmetric loads, don't fly inverted, don't fly at high AoA with stuff on your wings, don't pull Gs with tanks, etc.

And that is one reason why at least some modern aircraft come with so-called "carefree handling", where the flight control system knows what the limits are, and a maximum-deflection stick input will simply give you whatever performance doesn't break things or send you flying into the ground with the configuration that you are flying in (and by the way, that is also why you cannot randomly put new or different types of weapons on a fighter aircraft, as the flight control systems needs to be adjusted for the weight/balance and aerodynamic properties of anything that goes onto or into the aircraft). The F-16 doesn't have that, so someone needs to go through endless tables of classified information to figure out what exactly the limits are that apply, and hopefully tell the pilot the correct version of what he/she can or cannot do with whatever loadout the aircraft has.

[SickSidewinder9]

I think some of you are confusing G limits with performance limits.  TGP isn't automatically cat III, but it is G limited, if I'm reading correctly.

Also, Falconeer, sound like you're a real life pilot?  That's totally awesome and thanks for contributing.  Now don't go getting yourself in trouble.  That's what War Thunder forums are for!

[SpecterDC13]

ECM pods on the centerline is CAT I. They go CAT III when loaded onto the wing stations. 

Centerline tanks are also CAT I.  However, if you do 3x tanks that is a CAT III. So for instance if you do 2x or 6x 9s and three tanks that is a CATIII configuration. 

TGPs and HTS pods are instant CAT III no matter what. 

But you will or should get a stores config caution with certain A2A loadouts as it is a reminder that if you shoot one off the rail on either side you are now asymetric which is a CAT III condition.

Again, this goes with what I was saying about how it is the pilot's job to ensure he/she is in the correct CAT option as during flight your conditions can change. So know what is on your jet and you will be ok.

[Falconeer]

7 hours ago, SickSidewinder9 said:

Also, Falconeer, sound like you're a real life pilot?  

Im not a pilot, but i do work on F-16 s every day 

[SpecterDC13]

@Falconeerwhat do you do? I am weapons at Nellis on the 16.