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Posted (edited)

I keep saying this, and apparently no one here's getting it, so I'm going to repeat it:

I haven't once, in this thread, told/advised/instructed anyone to buy anything.

Simply said that if "future proofing" can be invoked to rationalize buying any amount of other expensive hardware, and/or buying a Gen4 drive for a Gen3 board as I believe was actually suggested...

...then the same exact argument applies to buying Gen5 drives.

Like it or not, it's that simple.

Edited by kksnowbear

Free professional advice: Do not rely upon any advice concerning computers from anyone who uses the terms "beast" or "rocking" to refer to computer hardware.  Just...don't.  You've been warned.

While we're at it, people should stop using the term "uplift" to convey "increase".  This is a technical endeavor, we're not in church or at the movies - and it's science, not drama.

Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

And once again: What is "worth it" is absolutely and entirely a matter of opinion.  Period.

It's not, it's a matter of economics. "I paid X dollars for an Y FPS/loading time boost" is not a matter of opinion. Particularly when discussing advice, it's important to let the other person form an informed opinion. This means that a more detailed analysis is called for than "sure, it'll be worth it eventually, believe me". I'm not in business of throwing away money, I buy hardware to get a tangible result, not get into performance measuring contests. With the current trends in hardware prices, I wouldn't recommend a Gen5 SSD, because you won't actually see gains, and when we come to the point that you would, it'll be a lot cheaper.

4 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

and/or buying a Gen4 drive for a Gen3 board as I believe was actually suggested...

This is a different matter, actually. If you already have a Gen3 board, like I do, you can buy a Gen4 SSD, hoping that you'll eventually upgrade that board (because a Gen3 board these days is going to have to be upgraded eventually), then you'll already have an SSD that can fully utilize the new board's capabilities. Since Gen4 isn't going to get any cheaper, and inflation will eventually have the opposite effect, you might as well get it now.

Edited by Dragon1-1
Posted (edited)
5 часов назад, kksnowbear сказал:

In any event, your earlier post is still misguided, because your 990 Pro is - as I said - still factually slower, even at 4k reads.

Excuse me, but it's not true according to your and my results. I even did a retest

image.png

Edited by CMDR Shepard

ASRock X670E Steel Legend / AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D / 64 Gb DDR5@6000 MHz / ROG Astral GeForce RTX 5090 OC / SSD: XPG GAMMIX S11 480 GB (OS),  XPG GAMMIX S11 Pro 2TB, Viper VP4100 2TB, Samsung 990 Pro 2TB (DCS) / PSU: DeepCool PQ1000M / UPS:  CyberPower CP1500EPFCLCD / Win11x64 / Samsung Odyssey G7 32" / Pimax 8KX and Quest 3

VPC: T-50CM3 + Constellation ALPHA Prime (200mm extension), Rotor Plus TCS Base + SharKa-50 / Apache-64 Collective, ACE-Torq Rudder Pedals; Thrustmaster Warthog Throttle; SimShaker Pad

Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It's not, it's a matter of economics. "I paid X dollars for an Y FPS/loading time boost" is not a matter of opinion. Particularly when discussing advice, it's important to let the other person form an informed opinion. This means that a more detailed analysis is called for than "sure, it'll be worth it eventually, believe me". I'm not in business of throwing away money, I buy hardware to get a tangible result, not get into performance measuring contests. With the current trends in hardware prices, I wouldn't recommend a Gen5 SSD, because you won't actually see gains, and when we come to the point that you would, it'll be a lot cheaper.

 

No, I'm afraid not.  What it worth to someone - anyone, under any circumstances, is absolutely and entirely a matter of that person's opinion and perspective.  Period.

And, as I keep saying: Pretty sure I haven't told/advised or instructed anyone to buy anything in this thread, at all.  So there's no advice at issue.

What you recommend is your business.  I'm already seeing faster performance, right now, with the T700.  And that's absolutely a matter of empirical fact.

3 minutes ago, CMDR Shepard said:

Excuse me, but it's not true according to your and my results. I even did a retest null

image.png

You're doing what's called 'cherry picking' data, the one Q1T1 random read in that specific benchmark.

In fact, the 4k read at a queue depth of 32 just above that is factually better in my post of the T700 score.  And depending on the circumstances, a higher queue depth is more likely than "1".

Edited by kksnowbear

Free professional advice: Do not rely upon any advice concerning computers from anyone who uses the terms "beast" or "rocking" to refer to computer hardware.  Just...don't.  You've been warned.

While we're at it, people should stop using the term "uplift" to convey "increase".  This is a technical endeavor, we're not in church or at the movies - and it's science, not drama.

Posted
Just now, kksnowbear said:

No, I'm afraid not.  What it worth to someone - anyone, under any circumstances, is absolutely and entirely a matter of that person's opinion and perspective.  Period.

Yes, you're one of those who pay money just to feel better about benchmark numbers, we already know that. Excluding those edge cases, most people build their computers to run games, not benchmarks. We can quibble about what dollar amount for how many FPS qualifies as "worth it", but ultimately, the measure of X dollars for Y FPS is completely objective. In particular, you'll find that for Y=0, people who are still going to say "worth it" are going to be hard to find.

Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Yes, you're one of those who pay money just to feel better about benchmark numbers, we already know that. 

Nope.  That has nothing to do with it.

BTW let's leave the personal insults out of it.  Debate the point, instead of ad hominem attacks.

It's not an edge case.  In 100% of the cases, what is "worth it" is a matter of opinion.  It's really just that simple.  (For the record, I distinguish what is 'worth it' from 'value-for-cost' which is what you're talking about).

And I have no trouble finding and working with people who actually pay for and trust my advice and work, thanks.  Just a matter of actually understanding what's being discussed - and I *never* (ever) force anything on any client.  I might strongly advise, or even ask them to reconsider, but at the end of the day, the decision is always theirs.

Edited by kksnowbear

Free professional advice: Do not rely upon any advice concerning computers from anyone who uses the terms "beast" or "rocking" to refer to computer hardware.  Just...don't.  You've been warned.

While we're at it, people should stop using the term "uplift" to convey "increase".  This is a technical endeavor, we're not in church or at the movies - and it's science, not drama.

Posted
6 минут назад, kksnowbear сказал:

You're doing what's called 'cherry picking' data, the one Q1T1 random read in that specific benchmark.

In fact, the 4k read at a queue depth of 32 just above that is factually better in my post of the T700 score.  And depending on the circumstances, a higher queue depth is more likely than "1".

 

Most IRL application use 1-4 queue depth for reading. Not 16-32 etc

Спойлер

For staring apps:
 6d317f71e2724113b80efe8198f08462.jpg
For using:
1fdb10657f27459fabe0d2709a780f10.jpg

Distribution of queue depths for different user loads:
image

 

 

 

ASRock X670E Steel Legend / AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D / 64 Gb DDR5@6000 MHz / ROG Astral GeForce RTX 5090 OC / SSD: XPG GAMMIX S11 480 GB (OS),  XPG GAMMIX S11 Pro 2TB, Viper VP4100 2TB, Samsung 990 Pro 2TB (DCS) / PSU: DeepCool PQ1000M / UPS:  CyberPower CP1500EPFCLCD / Win11x64 / Samsung Odyssey G7 32" / Pimax 8KX and Quest 3

VPC: T-50CM3 + Constellation ALPHA Prime (200mm extension), Rotor Plus TCS Base + SharKa-50 / Apache-64 Collective, ACE-Torq Rudder Pedals; Thrustmaster Warthog Throttle; SimShaker Pad

Posted (edited)
On 3/10/2024 at 5:53 PM, CMDR Shepard said:

Most IRL application use 1-4 queue depth for reading. Not 16-32 etc

  Reveal hidden contents

For staring apps:
 6d317f71e2724113b80efe8198f08462.jpg
For using:
1fdb10657f27459fabe0d2709a780f10.jpg

Distribution of queue depths for different user loads:
image

 

Depends on the circumstances, how many drives, what's actually running, etc.  Also, "1" is not "4" - big difference there as well.  32 might not be as common (again, depends) but 4 is certainly much more common, especially in certain circumstances.  But the benchmark you posted originally is strictly Q1, not 1-4.

And let's not forget: The T700 cost me less than a 990 Pro at the time I bought it.  No brainer.  Can't help other countries' economic situation; not a factor I have to be concerned with, nor my clients.  (And I'm pretty sure the OP is in the States too...checking...yup, Kansas USA)

Also, I'm pretty sure that with a DirectStorage implementation, the small data size concerns will be much less an issue.  One of the biggest advantages of the newer technology is that data can be moved in *much* bigger sizes - which will (again) strongly favor Gen5 drives like the T700

Edited by kksnowbear

Free professional advice: Do not rely upon any advice concerning computers from anyone who uses the terms "beast" or "rocking" to refer to computer hardware.  Just...don't.  You've been warned.

While we're at it, people should stop using the term "uplift" to convey "increase".  This is a technical endeavor, we're not in church or at the movies - and it's science, not drama.

Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

This is a different matter, actually. If you already have a Gen3 board, like I do, you can buy a Gen4 SSD, hoping that you'll eventually upgrade that board (because a Gen3 board these days is going to have to be upgraded eventually), then you'll already have an SSD that can fully utilize the new board's capabilities. Since Gen4 isn't going to get any cheaper, and inflation will eventually have the opposite effect, you might as well get it now.

Right, but my point was that the exact same argument applies to Gen5 drives - given that what's "worth it" is strictly subjective, as opposed to value-for-cost, which is objective.  If I find a Gen5 drive the same size that's as cheap or cheaper as a comparable Gen4 (as I actually did) then your argument is making my point, even for someone with a Gen4 board.  The Gen5 drive, in that case, is essentially a no brainer, 100% of the time (with a few specific caveats like quality, warranty etc; these were both excellent, high-end drives [Crucial T700 and Samsung 990 Pro], both 2TB.)

To be clear, I don't personally subscribe to the 'future proof' idea, and I'm very careful to explain this to my clients.  However, I am compelled to respect their preferences, and it happens I know what they actually mean by 'future proofing'.  So I'm happy to accommodate.  My point was/is with all the mention of 'future proofing' on this site, that if the argument applies one way, then the argument could be made in other instances as well.

If someone has a Gen5 board - or even remotely plans on it - and (like me) finds one for as cheap or cheaper than a Gen4 drive, why would anyone say "Just get Gen4 always and regardless"?

Edited by kksnowbear

Free professional advice: Do not rely upon any advice concerning computers from anyone who uses the terms "beast" or "rocking" to refer to computer hardware.  Just...don't.  You've been warned.

While we're at it, people should stop using the term "uplift" to convey "increase".  This is a technical endeavor, we're not in church or at the movies - and it's science, not drama.

Posted (edited)

 

2 hours ago, kksnowbear said:

And - again, to get back to the topic of this thread, I never once gave any specific advice to "Do this".  That was you:

Quote

  On 1/12/2024 at 10:19 AM, LucShep said:

Resuming -  get a Gen4 NVME, always and regardless.

Talk about "incredibly poor judgment".  I guess you'd advise those with Gen5 boards to use Gen4 drives always and regardless (your words, not mine).

My point throughout has simply been that if 'future proofing' is a valid argument, then buying a Gen5 drive isn't bad advice at all.  Pretty sure that's what I said.

 


What, this again? 🤦‍♂️

Yep, I did say that, and would say it again, and again. A million times.

And I also posted the following image, showcasing the huge prices differences, for the blatant reality of "law of diminishing returns" across one continent (Europe), if not the majority of the world (but not the US where you live, it seems).
Which (of course) you won't put into context or even consider, because it doesn't fit your narrative.

image.png


Again, quoting myself - and yes this also goes regardless of having a Gen5 compatible motherboard:

On 1/14/2024 at 10:42 PM, LucShep said:

When the time comes that Gen5 drives make any real sense for intensive game titles (it doesn't currently), they'll be already so much cheaper and then worth getting.
That's just not today.
As good as they are, it just makes no sense to get one right now at these outrageous prices. (...unless you're in the US and the very rare/odd local promotion comes up, that is!)

IMHO, advising people to get a 2TB Gen5 drive which won't make any difference for any intensive game title anytime soon, when right now people could instead get a very good 4TB Gen4 drive (double the storage capacity!) for less money than it, or the same very good 2TB Gen4 for less than half(!) of its price, just shows incredibly poor judgment.


I'll put the "Gen 5 NVMe purchase for a gaming system" as an analogy, and a pretty basic one.....

....would you recommend a Threadripper 7995WX for gaming (sims, shooters, esports, or otherwise), even if it worked on an AM5 X670 or B650 motherboard?
You wouldn't, right?   (huh 😦 ...right??)
Just like anyone in his right mind won't recommend 128GB RAM for gaming right now.
And why not?  Because it's silly, plain and simple. It's overkill spec'ed and considerable higher cost, for a purpose that (gaming) won't see any benefits, not anytime soon.

 

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:
 
Quote

  1 hour ago, kksnowbear said:

and/or buying a Gen4 drive for a Gen3 board as I believe was actually suggested...


This is a different matter, actually. If you already have a Gen3 board, like I do, you can buy a Gen4 SSD, hoping that you'll eventually upgrade that board (because a Gen3 board these days is going to have to be upgraded eventually), then you'll already have an SSD that can fully utilize the new board's capabilities. Since Gen4 isn't going to get any cheaper, and inflation will eventually have the opposite effect, you might as well get it now.

Finally!!
I thought I was going crazy thinking noone was seeing the obvious! 

Have a good one, gents. I'm done with this silly "Gen5" and "Direct Storage" ping-pong discussion.
Picking parts of someone's post without placing the context, to spin a narrative and string us along for nonsensical arguments, gets to a point I'm not sure anymore if it's trolling.

Edited by LucShep

CGTC - Caucasus retexture  |  A-10A cockpit retexture  |  Shadows Reduced Impact  |  DCS 2.5.6 - a lighter alternative 

DCS terrain modules_July23_27pc_ns.pngDCS aircraft modules_July23_27pc_ns.png 

Spoiler

Win10 Pro x64  |  Intel i7 12700K (OC@ 5.1/5.0p + 4.0e)  |  64GB DDR4 (OC@ 3700 CL17 Crucial Ballistix)  |  RTX 3090 24GB EVGA FTW3 Ultra  |  2TB NVMe (MP600 Pro XT) + 500GB SSD (WD Blue) + 3TB HDD (Toshiba P300) + 1TB HDD (WD Blue)  |  Corsair RMX 850W  |  Asus Z690 TUF+ D4  |  TR FN 240  |  Fractal Meshify-C  |  UAD Volt1 + Sennheiser HD-599SE  |  7x USB 3.0 Hub |  50'' 4K Philips PUS7608 UHD TV + Head Tracking  |  HP Reverb G1 Pro (VR)  |  TM Warthog + Logitech X56 

 

Posted (edited)

Well, all that laid aside, the "Gen4 always, regardless" is very bad advice in the right circumstances.  Among other reasons, always is a long time.  Always and never should be used very carefully.  But those were your words.

And I didn't give anyone advice, only you did.  You said advising someone to buy Gen5 was poor judgement - but ya see, I never actually did what you're claiming.

In fact, if I can be honest, it shows very poor judgment to accuse me of doing something that (I'm pretty sure) I didn't actually do.

42 minutes ago, LucShep said:

Finally!!
I thought I was going crazy thinking noone was seeing the obvious! 

Nope.  I addressed that later/below.  It actually makes the point that I did actually state.  I get that you don't want to acknowledge it, but again: I didn't give advice.  What I actually said was if the 'future proof' argument could be applied to a Gen3 board owner, then it also can be made (not *must* be made, I said "can be") for a Gen4 board and Gen5 drive.  As I've stated over and over, this applies particularly if the Gen5 drive is cheaper than the Gen4 - which is what I found.  In the States.  Where I live and work, and build gaming machines for others.

You can cite European examples, but I can't cite American cases?  I am sorry you can't find a similar deal, but I'm not going to miss out on it just because you can't find as good a deal.  That would be stupid, and it would be stupid to tell my clients, "Hey they can't get this deal in Europe, so I'm not going to offer it to you".

42 minutes ago, LucShep said:

Picking parts of someone's post without placing the context, to spin a narrative and string us along for nonsensical discussions, gets to a point I'm not sure anymore if we're being trolled.

No one's trolling anything...now you're going to claim that just because I don't agree with your opinions, I'm trolling?

PS, although I'm sure it's a lost point on you, I just recently fitted a client's machine with 128G RAM - but here's the thing:  I didn't advise them at all.  They approached me, asked me to do it, so I did.  Simple.  TBH I don't know why they felt it 'worth it' but as I've said over and over here...what's worth it is entirely up to the guy writing the check.  Sometimes I ask or advise clients, sometimes I just do what they ask me to do.  That's (also) a business decision, not a technical factor.

Edited by kksnowbear

Free professional advice: Do not rely upon any advice concerning computers from anyone who uses the terms "beast" or "rocking" to refer to computer hardware.  Just...don't.  You've been warned.

While we're at it, people should stop using the term "uplift" to convey "increase".  This is a technical endeavor, we're not in church or at the movies - and it's science, not drama.

Posted
11 hours ago, kksnowbear said:

That would be stupid, and it would be stupid to tell my clients, "Hey they can't get this deal in Europe, so I'm not going to offer it to you".

That's a different matter, and you should be clear that it's a deal. As in, this isn't normal. If you can get it at such a low price that a Gen4 won't save you a lot of money, sure, go for it. For most people that won't be the case, and you shouldn't be taking your luck for granted, either. This is not something that applies anywhere outside the US, or even inside the US where the deal ("offer void in Alaska and Hawaii", anyone?). 

Also, I suspect that the Gen4 drive you're comparing against isn't the cheapest you can find in the US. It's not that hard to find a Gen4 drive in Europe that would cost as much as a low to mid end Gen5 drive. Doesn't make either an effective investment.

Mind, there's one important difference between the two cases of futureproofing: Gen4 board bought today will not be up for replacement for a while. In particular, something like Ryzen 7800X3D will last you a long time, and even now, my "interim" PC with a Gen3 board and a 5800X3D can run DCS smoothly in 4K VR, particularly after I threw a 3090 in it. A mobo upgrade typically comes with a CPU upgrade, so you have to consider the expected lifetime of a particular configuration. Basically, futureproofing only makes sense up to a point.

Posted (edited)

It doesn't matter that it was a deal - as I've said, anyone at the same time and in the same circumstances, could've gotten the exact same deal (in the States).  This wasn't a wholesale arrangement, it was brand new hardware prices at retail (websites).  Granted, it didn't last long (a matter of a few hours IIRC) but it was available to anyone (in the States, I presume).

Sorry but I'm a little too busy to keep up with other countries' economics, and since I'm not advising or building for anyone in another country, most people could understand there's no reason I should need to.

It's also not really a measure of my luck as it is a certain 'skill' in being patient and diligent.  You can argue that point, but the fact is it paid off.  I didn't pull any miracle out of my behind, I was just a good shopper, that's it, period.  And, FWIW, this is another thing I do with clients: Advise them on how to buy, not just what to buy.  And it works.  I generally encourage competition and will often provide comparison costs when I quote work.  If I can't offer a better value, I tell them so, plain and simple.

Sorry, but from my perspective, all the grousing here is just jealous "haters".  There is a reason people pay for my work and trust my advice.  Several have allowed me to do multiple builds over the years.

You are correct.  I was not comparing the cheapest Gen4 drive, and there's nothing to suspect: I stated as much.  It starts to become apparent that you're arguing here without actually reading (which doesn't do much for understanding, I might add):

On 1/12/2024 at 11:36 AM, kksnowbear said:

If you can make the argument today that buying into PCIe 4.0 makes sense in terms of future proofing, when you only have a PCIe 3.0 board...then...

(To which I suppose the obvious reply is that a PCIe 5.0 drive costs more than a PCIe 4.0 drive...

...but I got the T700 for less than what a 2TB 990 Pro would cost, so...)

You might wanna go back and read those earlier posts (although you were actually participating).

What's happened is fairly simple; I wasn't the one who started about "future proofing", and I was saying that, way back in the beginning of the thread.  What I actually said is quoted above, and I'm still pretty sure that at no point have I advised anyone to do anything in this thread.  (Still waiting for someone to post a quote where I actually did that, BTW).

Also, I have discussed getting a deal, as well as my good fortune, just seems like you don't read:

On 1/12/2024 at 11:07 AM, kksnowbear said:

Well, I am blessed to have a wife who loves me and has the funds for really nice Christmas presents (though believe me, she got some pretty nice stuff too lol)

And here's the exact, initial comment that I made about future proofing (after someone else brought it up, not me):

On 1/12/2024 at 10:35 AM, kksnowbear said:

I personally consider the notion of "future proofing" as a fool's errand, TBH.  But, if we're going down *that* road...well, then, it justifies the PCIe 5.0 drive I just bought 😄 (though to be accurate I am using it in a PCIe 5.0 slot).

Basically, I'm responding to what others say.  And it's absolutely true: What someone feels is "worth it" in terms of 'future proofing' is always up to them.  People have posted in this forum about spending thousands on GPUs that go way beyond what DCS requires to run even at 4k (and we're not talking VR users either)...faster CPUs, more memory, and so on...more costly all the while, all in the name of 'future proofing'.  There is frequent mention of 'future proofing' when people post about new builds...

...all this is OK, but I decide it's "worth it" to me to spend less than a top end Samsung 990Pro would've cost, to get the same size Gen5 T700 that's actually faster...because I already have a Gen5 board, having just started my own AM5 build...

...and I'm the bad guy?  Now that's absurd.

This 'always' and 'never' attitude is what started the argument.  Those two words seldom apply to what 'makes sense' when it comes to building PCs - and I do custom builds all the time, some of them for DCS users.  Sometimes it makes sense to wait for a better deal; sometimes it makes sense to buy now.  Sometimes Gen4 might makes sense; sometimes Gen5 might.

To me, it makes zero sense to be in the process of a Gen5 capable AM5 build (including the added cost of the Gen5 board), then pay as much or more than a top end Gen4 drive, when you can get a Gen5 drive at a comparable cost.

It so happens I'm doing yet another AM5 build for a DCS user right now, and guess what we just discussed?  He wants a Gen5 drive ('worth it' to him, obviously, and it was entirely his choice), but on my advice, we agreed it's not the best time to buy right now.  Amazing...when I am actually advising someone to do something, it makes sense and they understand that.  Wow.

I've also done Gen4 (non "E" model) AM5 builds.  Not my recommendation, but the point is I wouldn't advise a Gen5 drive in that case (obviously).

Or, put another way, if your goal is to save money by using cheaper Gen4 storage (even though you're doing a brand new AM5 build) then save yourself a chunk of money and don't buy a Gen5 "E" board.  Again, not my advice - but as I keep on saying, what's 'worth it' is strictly and entirely a matter of opinion.

Edited by kksnowbear

Free professional advice: Do not rely upon any advice concerning computers from anyone who uses the terms "beast" or "rocking" to refer to computer hardware.  Just...don't.  You've been warned.

While we're at it, people should stop using the term "uplift" to convey "increase".  This is a technical endeavor, we're not in church or at the movies - and it's science, not drama.

Posted (edited)

@kksnowbear 
What we (especially me, for several posts) have been talking about - and you misinterpret it - is that Gen 3 drives have been at similar price as Gen 4 drives. 
It makes no sense to buy the slower drive if you can get the faster one for same price, right?
Which will also work better once you upgrade the motherboard (if it's a Gen 3 one), hence the "future proofing" I mentioned.
The difference here to your Gen 5 rebuttal to it, is that this is a daily ocurrence. Not a "for a few hours" promotion, like it it was for that "one in a million" scenario on that (much, much more expensive) Gen 5 drive you luckily found at such low prices.
I'm not sure what is so hard to understand here that takes 3+ pages of back and forth silly arguments.

You're argumentative for the sake of "frak knows why", really sounds like in bad faith. A discussion is made of concessions - I haven't seen a single time in recent times at these forums where you've done that.
I don't give a hoot about your "40 years in IT" and "my business" and "my customers". Next time you use that stupid argument to shut down people followed by "you're just haters", I'll report you for SPAM, for interacting in the forum merely to fish potential customers.

Edited by LucShep
spelling(?)

CGTC - Caucasus retexture  |  A-10A cockpit retexture  |  Shadows Reduced Impact  |  DCS 2.5.6 - a lighter alternative 

DCS terrain modules_July23_27pc_ns.pngDCS aircraft modules_July23_27pc_ns.png 

Spoiler

Win10 Pro x64  |  Intel i7 12700K (OC@ 5.1/5.0p + 4.0e)  |  64GB DDR4 (OC@ 3700 CL17 Crucial Ballistix)  |  RTX 3090 24GB EVGA FTW3 Ultra  |  2TB NVMe (MP600 Pro XT) + 500GB SSD (WD Blue) + 3TB HDD (Toshiba P300) + 1TB HDD (WD Blue)  |  Corsair RMX 850W  |  Asus Z690 TUF+ D4  |  TR FN 240  |  Fractal Meshify-C  |  UAD Volt1 + Sennheiser HD-599SE  |  7x USB 3.0 Hub |  50'' 4K Philips PUS7608 UHD TV + Head Tracking  |  HP Reverb G1 Pro (VR)  |  TM Warthog + Logitech X56 

 

Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, LucShep said:

I don't give a hoot about your "40 years in IT" and "my business" and "my customers". Next time you use that stupid argument to shut down people followed by "you're just haters", I'll report you for SPAM, for interacting in the forum merely to fish potential customers.

And who's not making concessions?  BTW, if you can't find mine, you're really not trying.  I'll be glad to find an example for you, but I can't afford to spend all day on it.  If you look, there's plenty out there.

On 1/12/2024 at 9:32 AM, kksnowbear said:

You know, it's rare when I find that I disagree with you 😉

Hmm.  Seems a perfectly friendly concession, which I made to you in this very thread (replete with smiley winking emoticon, nonetheless).  That's one; there are plenty of others.

Sorry, man, but I'm not the bad guy here just because I don't agree with you.  And, at the end of the day, it would certainly seem that's what you're pissed about.

Again, let's debate the point.  Forum discussions may well include concessions, but that's not at all the entirely of a discussion.  Dissenting perspectives are also part of the deal (and should be welcomed, not attacked TBH).  I'm not pissed at you because we disagree, so no reason you should be.  We have different perspectives; I've stated mine.  It happens I genuinely oppose "expertise" in forums that typically exists only because most users don't have the knowledge or experience to disagree.  I do.  And I debate where I see there is room for other perspectives.  I don't think that's against forum rules, as much as you might want it to be.

My IT experience and the fact that I do this work professionally is absolutely relevant.  Sorry if you don't agree.  You'd trust someone as a doctor or lawyer who didn't have experience?

By the way, you should consider that, right now, today, there are people I know from this forum (and other sim forums), who I have done work for, or am currently doing work for.  And you want me banned or something just because I don't agree with you?  I'm not a freaking "troll" (or whatever names you like calling people), just because I don't see things your way.

At least some people here understand and appreciate what I do.  Sorry that's not you.  You do whatever you want, but you shouldn't dismiss those other members of this forum simply because I've earned their trust and respect.  And again, I mention my work and experience because it's relevant.

(BTW the majority of my work comes from offline, so although you can report whatever you want, I'm not just here 'fishing for customers'.  When one wants to meet racing fans, one goes to the track - and I'm the bad guy? I also fly DCS and other sims and have been involved in that for over 40 years as well...this makes me a troll?)

My initial posts in this thread were directed at the OP, and intended as helpful advice - and apparently, recognized by the OP as just that:

On 1/10/2024 at 2:02 PM, CL30 said:

Thank you both for the education...learned some things!

TBH it was only once all the posts advising always and regardless buying Gen4 drives that things got muddied up, and I didn't start that.  I simply responded that if the future proofing argument can be applied to Gen 4 on a Gen3 board, then it can certainly be applied to Gen5 drives.  That's it.  Didn't advise anyone to buy Gen5 in this thread, as you claimed was "very poor judgement".

I believe all I said was the future proofing argument could be applied to Gen5...but by all means, I'm happy to admit I'm wrong, if you can show me where I advised or instructed anyone to buy Gen5 in this dialogue.

Regardless, as I've said, I've been approached by people who ask me to build Gen5 machines for them, without me advising anything.  But you want my professional experience banned from the discussion, because it doesn't suit your argument.

Incidentally, Amazon is well known for routinely changing prices by the hour.  Why is that my fault?  People shop holiday sales (when I got my T700) all the time - but I'm wrong for it?  I make a point of finding good deals, and I often pass it along to people I work with on systems.  I am blessed, I 'pay it forward'.  This is wrong?  Seriously, it just starts to seem you're just mad because of prices where you are - again, certainly not my fault.  Everyone in the States supposed to turn down decent opportunity because you don't get the opportunity?  You "specialize" in European stuff; I specialize in the market I have access to.  I don't think I've said or done anything to mislead anyone in that regard.

I simply related my own personal experience buying my own drive (which anyone in the right place and circumstances could benefit from).  As for my luck in finding that deal, again:  More skill than luck.  I find ways to make arrangements people are happy with.  If I can't offer someone an arrangement that's acceptable to them, then I advise them to buy elsewhere.

Seems like another concession and perfectly reasonable advice.  Certainly not forcing anyone to do anything 😄 😄

Oh, here's another example: I actually bought a BeQuiet 1200W PSU, based on your recommendation here in this forum.  And this was installed in a build that *I* am obligated to support.  That's not me "putting my money where my mouth is"...that's me putting my money where your mouth is.  But (and here's the key) I bought it only because I found a deal on it.  Your recommendation was enough that I considered it from a technical perspective...but getting the deal I got actually made the sale.  And I passed it along.  This is wrong, why?

Guess you wouldn't care that this more or less proves I'm not trolling anything, that my goal is simply and specifically helping people get into this hobby with the best arrangement I can possibly come up with (even at the risk of agreeing with you LOL).  Sometimes I agree with you.  Other times, I do not.  Simple as that.

I have factually lost money (at times) doing this, because I don't do it for the money.  It is not the 'money making' part of my operation.  I do it to help others, using the skill and talent the good Lord blessed me with, because I love the work.

And now you're pissed.  I would submit your own words are what you're angry about, and I'm sorry, but dude, seriously: I didn't make you say those things.

Sorry to get off the subject.  The subject here was M.2 drives.  I'm stating my perspectives on the subject of building and installing computers as it applies to M2 drives, per the topic.  I'll leave it at that.  I think it will become more apparent I'm not some troll (a personal attack I don't care for or deserve).

Edited by kksnowbear
  • Like 1

Free professional advice: Do not rely upon any advice concerning computers from anyone who uses the terms "beast" or "rocking" to refer to computer hardware.  Just...don't.  You've been warned.

While we're at it, people should stop using the term "uplift" to convey "increase".  This is a technical endeavor, we're not in church or at the movies - and it's science, not drama.

Posted (edited)
On 1/10/2024 at 12:45 PM, CL30 said:

I didn't realize it at the time, but I have DCS on a SATA m.2 drive from when I built my PC several years ago.  I only realized it now that it's full and I can't update DCS, and have been shopping for a new one.  I'm going to get a larger SSD for DCS, probably 2 TB, but I want an NVME. 

My question is, is it worth it to go with something like the WD Black SN850X/Samsung 990 Pro?  Or would a WD Black SN770/Samsung 980 Pro still do fine? Just don't know how much of a difference it'd make vs price.

I'm on a 9600k (4.9 OC), 32 GB RAM, and 2080Ti.  Planning a new build in a few months, but still want to play in the meantime.  Just need the room. Thanks!

 

I used to have DCS on a PCIe 3.0 NVMe drive, ran out of space, bought a new 2TB PCIe 4.0 drive (twice as fast.)

It doesn't really make any difference in loading times. The new drive benchmarks with WILD performance but it's no big deal in actual use so I wouldn't get worked up about it. Your motherboard only supports PCIe 3.0 anyway, but you can install a 4.0 drive if you wish and it will run at 3.0 speeds. It's no big deal, go ahead and get a new drive. It will not drastically improve loading times over your SATA SSD, but it should be a bit faster.

It's for video games. Just buy what's on sale.

That's the real answer.

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Edited by Aluminum Donkey

Kit:

B550 Aorus Elite AX V2, Ryzen 7 5800X w/ Thermalright Phantom Spirit 120 SE, 2 x 16GB Kingston Fury DDR4 @3600MHz C16, Asus ROG Strix RTX 4070 Ti Super 16GB, EVGA SuperNova 750 G2 PSU, HP Omen 32" 2560x1440, Thrustmaster Cougar HOTAS fitted with Leo Bodnar's BU0836A controller.

--Aviation is the art of throwing yourself at the ground, and having all the rules and regulations get in the way!

If man was meant to fly, he would have been born with a lot more money!

Posted (edited)

 

2 hours ago, Aluminum Donkey said:

It's for video games. Just buy what's on sale.

That's the real answer.

Sure is. For those who value cheap over performance, absolutely.

As with anything else, you get what you pay for 🙂

Edited by kksnowbear

Free professional advice: Do not rely upon any advice concerning computers from anyone who uses the terms "beast" or "rocking" to refer to computer hardware.  Just...don't.  You've been warned.

While we're at it, people should stop using the term "uplift" to convey "increase".  This is a technical endeavor, we're not in church or at the movies - and it's science, not drama.

Posted

Thanks again for the replies, guys, I appreciate it.

I can't remember if I ever updated the thread (haven't read back, only saw the recent notifications).  I went ahead and bought a 2TB WD Black 850 for all my DCS stuff.  Figured whenever I build a new PC I'll just drop that drive in it. 

I also replaced my 9600k with a 9900k, and replaced my 2080Ti with a 3090 my buddy sold me.  It has been great so far!  Really loving the setup.  Haven't played much VR lately since the change, but I've been playing a lot of flat panel w/TrackIR on maxed out settings and, wow, DCS is just beautiful!  Really getting back into the Editor.  Working on a little mini-campaign at the moment.  Glad to be enjoying DCS again.  

 

  • Like 2

i5-9900K @ 5.0 GHz| Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Master | 64 GB Trident G.Skill RAM @ 3200 MHz | Thermaltake Floe Riing 360 AIO | Samsung EVO 860 500 GB SSD | Crucial MX500 500 GB M.2 | SanDisk 1TB SSD | RTX 3090 | EVGA G3 850W Gold PSU | Thermaltake View 71 TG Snow Edition | Thrustmaster Warthog HOTAS | MFC Crosswind pedals | Oculus Rift-S

 

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Posted
18 hours ago, kksnowbear said:

Sure is. For those who value cheap over performance, absolutely.

As with anything else, you get what you pay for 🙂

When it comes to computer components, you don't always. Also, as I said before, performance that doesn't translate to the game isn't, as a rule, worth the money. Most of us aren't buying that kit to run benchmarks, they're buying it to run games. Games typically have their bottlenecks elsewhere.

You can get near-top level performance by being smart about how much you pay for what. Brand name components are especially suspect (although I must admit to getting convinced to pay a little extra for pretty lights). Optimizing the cost of a given rig is a form of art, too.

19 hours ago, Aluminum Donkey said:

It's for video games. Just buy what's on sale.

This is actually good advice, with a caveat that you should look out for worn out components (particularly when buying used) and known lemons. With a good eye for a deal you can make a PC that will run as well as one that would, if you bought as a unit, cost more than a small car.

Posted (edited)
49 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

When it comes to computer components, you don't always.

When it comes to everything, you do always.

I'm not going to argue with you.  Anyone can buy whatever they want.  But it's long since established that "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten."  It's as true now as it was nearly 250 years ago when good old Ben Franklin said it (and he was a fairly smart fellow, Ben was)

Edited by kksnowbear

Free professional advice: Do not rely upon any advice concerning computers from anyone who uses the terms "beast" or "rocking" to refer to computer hardware.  Just...don't.  You've been warned.

While we're at it, people should stop using the term "uplift" to convey "increase".  This is a technical endeavor, we're not in church or at the movies - and it's science, not drama.

Posted
6 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

When it comes to everything, you do always.

...do you realize how hopelessly naïve it is? Do you really think it's not possible to get bilked on a Chinese-made piece of crap sold as a premium product? No, you do not "get what you pay for" if you're not very, very careful. Because that expensive, "premium" piece of crap works just enough to make sure you can't return it as defective. Even more often, premium price simply gets you a badge and some blinkenlights. If you think those things are worth $1000 or more, be my guest, but I'd rather have the same guts for a lower price, thank you.

7 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

But it's long since established that "The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten."  It's as true now as it was nearly 250 years ago when good old Ben Franklin said it (and he was a fairly smart fellow, Ben was)

Except that's not what I'm talking about. Did you ever happen to buy poor quality for a high price? If you don't know what I'm talking about, you certainly did. Then, you get the bitterness of poor quality alongside the realization that you paid top dollar for it. The only consolation in that case is a fancy badge, and perhaps another quote from before most manufacturing got offshored to China and Taiwan. Like "a fool and his money are soon parted". I tend to do a lot of research before buying every component to avoid being played for a fool.

Particularly in computer components, if you educate yourself about memory, for example, you will find that under the fancy trims, RGB and brand logos, there is a small selection of chips made by a tiny handful of companies. The chips are the same no matter which brand you buy, despite the price range being vast. More expensive=/=better quality. Buying high performance memory chips in an unassuming box is generally cheaper than low performance ones from a "gaming" brand. Same applies more or less to everything else, from kitchen appliances to power tools (and don't even get me started on the racket that are luxury cars).

  • Like 1
Posted (edited)

What I know is people can buy whatever they want.  I'm never going to advise anyone to just buy what's cheap.  Not the way I operate (especially when I can typically do better on a trusted, quality component).

What I also know is the forum moderator asked if we could please ensure this thread stays on topic.  Stop taking shots at me just to try and show off.

Edited by kksnowbear

Free professional advice: Do not rely upon any advice concerning computers from anyone who uses the terms "beast" or "rocking" to refer to computer hardware.  Just...don't.  You've been warned.

While we're at it, people should stop using the term "uplift" to convey "increase".  This is a technical endeavor, we're not in church or at the movies - and it's science, not drama.

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