cannot repoduce and missing track file Yet another carrier landing thread. Sorry. Onspeed. AP disconnect.

[BuzzU]

4 hours ago, EmJay22 said:

While watching this video linked above 

 

I noticed the Red Controls Indicator in the lower left showing the amount of pitch trim that is being applied.

I also noticed that if your speed increases very much over 250 with gear down, that tic mark goes away and the pitch trim seems to reset.  And then it becomes necessary to reset pitch Trim to get to On Speed AOA.  Of course landing gear are not supposed to be lowered above 250 so this makes sense.

Or is this not correct?

 

Thanks

 

 

 

That's correct, but you should never need to go over 250 mph after being onspeed. Not even close to it.

Edited February 18 by BuzzU

[Joch1955]

Yes, as I recall because of the FBW system, the AC will try to auto trim to 1G when you are at around 250k?

On final, gear/flaps down, you should be around 135k. Personally, I do not look at the speed, just the AOA indexer and that the FPM is the the middle of the E bracket. If those two are within the limits, you should be fine.

The trickiest part IMHO is properly trimming the AC which can take a lot of practice and get right since it is more art than science. When the AC is properly trimmed, it will more or less land itself since the FPM will stay in the middle of the E bracket and you just need to concentrate on your throttle inputs.

This is another very good video to understand the trim concept:

 

Edited February 19 by Joch1955

[fagulha]

On 1/26/2024 at 2:13 PM, Joch1955 said:

To answer your AP question, pressing the AP disconnect switch will turn it off. Problem with AP is that it can sometimes be on with no indication and it will screw things up.

On Case 1 recovery. It is hard in the F/A-18 since everything has to be done correctly and parameters are tight.

To do it correctly, you have to learn the basics and practice them repeatedly until it becomes second nature.

1. Learn the correct procedure in the manuals and watch videos of how it works.

 

2. Learn how trim works correctly with the F/A-18 and the concept of reversed commands:

3. Practice airfield landings, both straight in approaches and the overhead break, until you can do them correctly consistently;

4. Only then should you try carrier landings;

5. One last tip, turn on the ILS. It will show you a cross which allows you to line up correctly on the Carrier.

Good Luck! Nothing more satisfying than catching the 3 wire.

 

Missing an important point, don´t follow the needles (ICLS) in close or else you´ll hit the deck or overpower when you notice that you´re low at the ramp and then get a bolter in the best scenario. The scan should be Meatball, glidescope, AoA, until touchdown.

[Muchocracker]

On 2/19/2024 at 7:15 AM, Joch1955 said:

Yes, as I recall because of the FBW system, the AC will try to auto trim to 1G when you are at around 250k?

On final, gear/flaps down, you should be around 135k. Personally, I do not look at the speed, just the AOA indexer and that the FPM is the the middle of the E bracket. If those two are within the limits, you should be fine.

Aircraft only auto trims to 1G when the flap switch is set to auto. With Gear and Flaps down it's more trying to nullify pitch rate instead of targetting a specific G load. 

And you are correct. Airspeed should be the last thing you look at when getting the jet on speed. The VV and the E-Bracket are the most important, while airspeed is almost entirely dependent on your gross weight. 

[CBStu]

At my beginning 5 yrs ago I saw very little point in landing on land beyond getting practice getting to on speed/on aoa. On land the runway is stationary and it is not at an 8-9deg angle to the wind. I did see a LOT of advantage to doing a straight in approach to the carrier from 10 miles out at about 3000ft. I always use ICLS and the E-bracket. I ignore the aoa light completely, as for me anyway, the E-bracket is much easier to use and to fine tune.  I try to be fully flaps and gear down and on aoa at 10 miles or 8 at worst. BTW, I dislike the term 'on-speed' as to me it has nothing to do w/ landing the plane.  From the time I am on aoa I aim the VV (another term I don't like- I prefer 'Flight Path Indicator' = FPI or 'Fight Path Marker'  = FPM) at the base of the tall island on the boat. This keeps me going to the right so I am following the boat as it is moving to my right. As I get down under 1 mile out I start moving the FPI slightly to the left to now line it up w/ the notch. If you move the FPI to the center of the landing area before about .3 mile out you will end up left of center line and have to be crossing the centerline left to right to touchdown on the center. Some of this diagonal seems to be OK but much of it gets the plane flopping left to right on the landing gear. BTW, I never look at any controls indicator or aoa number. As long as I am centered in the E which is right in the hud, I don't care about either of those. BTW2 in that 'real pilot' video he was high and way left and managed to do a huge correction to hit a wire. Notice his FPI was dropping like a rock through the E in the last 3-4 seconds  before he hit the deck.

Edited March 13 by CBStu
additional thought

[oldcrusty]

2 hours ago, CBStu said:

At my beginning 5 yrs ago I saw very little point in landing on land beyond getting practice getting to on speed/on aoa. On land the runway is stationary and it is not at an 8-9deg angle to the wind. I did see a LOT of advantage to doing a straight in approach to the carrier from 10 miles out at about 3000ft. I always use ICLS and the E-bracket. I ignore the aoa light completely, as for me anyway, the E-bracket is much easier to use and to fine tune.  I try to be fully flaps and gear down and on aoa at 10 miles or 8 at worst. BTW, I dislike the term 'on-speed' as to me it has nothing to do w/ landing the plane.  From the time I am on aoa I aim the VV (another term I don't like- I prefer 'Flight Path Indicator' = FPI or 'Fight Path Marker'  = FPM) at the base of the tall island on the boat. This keeps me going to the right so I am following the boat as it is moving to my right. As I get down under 1 mile out I start moving the FPI slightly to the left to now line it up w/ the notch. If you move the FPI to the center of the landing area before about .3 mile out you will end up left of center line and have to be crossing the centerline left to right to touchdown on the center. Some of this diagonal seems to be OK but much of it gets the plane flopping left to right on the landing gear. BTW, I never look at any controls indicator or aoa number. As long as I am centered in the E which is right in the hud, I don't care about either of those. BTW2 in that 'real pilot' video he was high and way left and managed to do a huge correction to hit a wire. Notice his FPI was dropping like a rock through the E in the last 3-4 seconds  before he hit the deck.

 

Let's run it down top to bottom:  The severe crosswind on runways was a rule in our online bunch back in the day.  On the boat, the mission makers should follow a formula to point the angled deck very closely aligned with natural headwind corrected for carrier made wind.  AOA scan... as long as you pay attention to it in some way.  Terminology - feel free to call things whatever you like. VV or FPM,  how about this one... the ACLS bullseye is called needles and ICLS needles (that look like needles) are called bullseye. Cool.

Also, operating Hornets from land bases could be exciting as well

Edited March 13 by oldcrusty

[EmJay22]

On 3/13/2024 at 11:22 AM, CBStu said:

At my beginning 5 yrs ago I saw very little point in landing on land beyond getting practice getting to on speed/on aoa. On land the runway is stationary and it is not at an 8-9deg angle to the wind. I did see a LOT of advantage to doing a straight in approach to the carrier from 10 miles out at about 3000ft. I always use ICLS and the E-bracket. I ignore the aoa light completely, as for me anyway, the E-bracket is much easier to use and to fine tune.  I try to be fully flaps and gear down and on aoa at 10 miles or 8 at worst. BTW, I dislike the term 'on-speed' as to me it has nothing to do w/ landing the plane.  From the time I am on aoa I aim the VV (another term I don't like- I prefer 'Flight Path Indicator' = FPI or 'Fight Path Marker'  = FPM) at the base of the tall island on the boat. This keeps me going to the right so I am following the boat as it is moving to my right. As I get down under 1 mile out I start moving the FPI slightly to the left to now line it up w/ the notch. If you move the FPI to the center of the landing area before about .3 mile out you will end up left of center line and have to be crossing the centerline left to right to touchdown on the center. Some of this diagonal seems to be OK but much of it gets the plane flopping left to right on the landing gear. BTW, I never look at any controls indicator or aoa number. As long as I am centered in the E which is right in the hud, I don't care about either of those. BTW2 in that 'real pilot' video he was high and way left and managed to do a huge correction to hit a wire. Notice his FPI was dropping like a rock through the E in the last 3-4 seconds  before he hit the deck.

 

Thank you so much for posting this detailed procedure. I really appreciate it.

When I first started over a year ago I kept focusing on that 8.1% value for AOA in the "instructions" and NOT the "donut" and certainly not the E bracket. Just before they released the "new" FM 18 I was trying to just use the donut instead and was having better luck, though still can't land on the ship using a pattern landing.

Then the new FM arrived, along wtih the "eggshell" landing gear. Prior to this, I had gotten relatively proficient at an airfield and as long as I didn't hit the nose gear so hard that the NWS was broken, I considered it a victory as I taxied to the "O club". I was even getting good enough to land on the carrier and taxi over for a relaunch. 

But with the "eggshell" gear I had to re-evaluate landing technique and was focusing solely on the donut and discovered the beautiful E bracket after viewing some helpful YouTube videos. 

Prior to the new FM, I was also studying the ILS system but never got a chance to try it.  I did try it a few days ago before your post and managed to bend both rear gear. 

So after reading you post I tried again, setting the TACAN crs to the BRC minus 9.  First try, LSO demanded I wave off and of course I again bend the gear as I refused to listen to his order. Second try I was getting better on the slope.. got a bit high before realizing that's what the low line meant.. managed to correct and was again waved off. I again ignored him but did managed to catch a wire and this time didn't break the landing gear. 

Thanks. 

[CBStu]

EmJat22, admittedly I am not doing my traps correctly re; communications but, as far as I experience him, the LSO is mostly wrong. I pay him zero attention. Also I have no idea how guys trap w/o the ICLS cross. Neither the on ship 'meatball' lights nor the cartoon addon meatball give any left/right lineup info. In a pattern trap  one comes out of the final 180 turn close enough to see the wake and the deck but in a straight in approach I am supposed to just eyeball it?? I fly a lot of SP user file download missions and campaigns. What I see is some variance in .2 to .3 mile out sinking. I feel like I have this one nailed and suddenly need a ton of throttle or I slam the fantail. Maybe these old missions use the old carrier, maybe there is something else I am not aware of computer programming wise that causes this variation. IDK. I have slowed throttle response in the middle 2/3 of travel which was recommended as help for AA refueling. I think I am going to take half of that slowing out so when I sink behind the carrier, I can get back on the gas more quickly. I will ad that this stuff takes a lot of practice. Have you downloaded Banklers carrier landing mission? He starts you out 10 miles back at about 1500ft and 350. You can do either a straight-in from there or a standard pattern trap. The pattern trap gives you grades along the way and after landing. Nice thing is once on the deck or wherever, just hit Shift R to start over again. I notice that if I don't fly Bankler's for a while my first 2 traps are terrible because my memory needs a reboot. 

[Jackjack171]

17 hours ago, CBStu said:

EmJat22, admittedly I am not doing my traps correctly re; communications but, as far as I experience him, the LSO is mostly wrong. I pay him zero attention. Also I have no idea how guys trap w/o the ICLS cross. Neither the on ship 'meatball' lights nor the cartoon addon meatball give any left/right lineup info. In a pattern trap  one comes out of the final 180 turn close enough to see the wake and the deck but in a straight in approach I am supposed to just eyeball it?? I fly a lot of SP user file download missions and campaigns. What I see is some variance in .2 to .3 mile out sinking. I feel like I have this one nailed and suddenly need a ton of throttle or I slam the fantail. Maybe these old missions use the old carrier, maybe there is something else I am not aware of computer programming wise that causes this variation. IDK. I have slowed throttle response in the middle 2/3 of travel which was recommended as help for AA refueling. I think I am going to take half of that slowing out so when I sink behind the carrier, I can get back on the gas more quickly. I will ad that this stuff takes a lot of practice. Have you downloaded Banklers carrier landing mission? He starts you out 10 miles back at about 1500ft and 350. You can do either a straight-in from there or a standard pattern trap. The pattern trap gives you grades along the way and after landing. Nice thing is once on the deck or wherever, just hit Shift R to start over again. I notice that if I don't fly Bankler's for a while my first 2 traps are terrible because my memory needs a reboot. 

The Lens or "meatball" is not meant to give the Pilot lineup information, only glideslope. The ICLS needles are nice to have as a reference but really not needed except for CASE II and III. Personally, I use the needles all the time because, why not?! Everything is a checkpoint. ABEAM the LSO platform 1.5 nm, start your turn. As you cross the wake, your RADALT goes off around 490ft, this an indicator of where you are. On a straight-in approach, since that would put you into the CASE II or III block, then of course use the needles until ball acquisition.
Just curious though, how do you admit that you are doing your traps wrong but claim that you do not listen to the LSO in the first place? Seems you have to bridge that gap somehow. The LSO is mostly right, (except for the Tomcat) mostly! I find that if the approach is good, he won't say anything! I've never used Banklers as it seemed like a crutch to me. 

[CBStu]

On 3/23/2024 at 12:02 PM, Jackjack171 said:

Just curious though, how do you admit that you are doing your traps wrong but claim that you do not listen to the LSO in the first place? Seems you have to bridge that gap somehow. The LSO is mostly right, (except for the Tomcat) mostly! I find that if the approach is good, he won't say anything! I've never used Banklers as it seemed like a crutch to me. 

I typed, "admittedly I am not doing my traps correctly re; communications"

I was trying to say that I have not yet figured out all the correct communication procedure. I usually get the popup after touchdown 'No proper communication'. For me Banklers is a learning tool. It is nice to get the comments during the standard double 180deg turns trap procedure and the score after touchdown. It is also nice to be able to hit 'L Shift R' and keep flying traps for practice. 

[EmJay22]

When at least 10 miles from carrier, activate the menu and select F5 for ATC.  Then the F# for the carrier and select Inbound. 

this is helpful (to me_) because they will give you the ship's course (BRC) which you can dial into to your TACAN to help you if you are not close  to the ship. With Bankler's you are at 10 miles and have to do all this quickly.

[Jackjack171]

10 hours ago, CBStu said:

I typed, "admittedly I am not doing my traps correctly re; communications"

I was trying to say that I have not yet figured out all the correct communication procedure. I usually get the popup after touchdown 'No proper communication'. For me Banklers is a learning tool. It is nice to get the comments during the standard double 180deg turns trap procedure and the score after touchdown. It is also nice to be able to hit 'L Shift R' and keep flying traps for practice. 

Yeah, that pesky "no proper communication" call usually comes from not following proper procedure. I'm not familiar with Banklers but I'm pretty sure if you do not follow procedure from start to finish (proper comms and actually following the LSO) the same results will keep presenting themselves. All the little parts matter, even the AOA indexer lights! Upon ball acquisition, you should be focused on meatball, lineup, AOA! Touch and go's instead of LShift R would be more instrumental in getting you what you want, that's if you are trying to fly the correct pattern and approach.