cannot repoduce and missing track file Yet another carrier landing thread. Sorry. Onspeed. AP disconnect.

[AngleOff66]

I've crashed into the fantail so often that there wouldn't be a carrier in the fleet.

I've watched a number of videos, and read threads here and other places.

I look at the info bar at the bottom of the screen to try to get the 8(ish) pitch that I have read about.  Either on the PTH or AOA.  Is that wrong?

I can mostly stay onspeed with a clean bird/level. Mostly.  A poor carpenter blames their tools, but I think my throttle needs a bit more grease.

It's when the gear and flaps  come down that the "fun" starts.  I drop the gear under 250, and the full flaps around 180.

I read about disconnecting the AP from Bankler.  Thanks!  I have a keybinding for it.

Question is how do I know the AP is disconnected?  Is there an indicator on one of the MFD?  Is there more than one AP mode that could be fighting me?

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks for reading.

Edited January 24 by AngleOff66

[razo+r]

6 minutes ago, AngleOff66 said:

I've crashed into the fantail so often that there wouldn't be a carrier in the fleet.

I've watched a number of videos, and read threads here and other places.

I look at the info bar at the bottom of the screen to try to get the 8(ish) pitch that I have read about.  Either on the PTH or AOA.  Is that wrong?

Yes. 

1) It's AoA, not pitch. Maintaining a pitch of 8 degrees, be it up or down, is just nonesense when you want to land.

2) You have a AoA indicator in the HUD and next to the HUD. Use those.

6 minutes ago, AngleOff66 said:

Question is how do I know the AP is disconnected?  Is there an indicator on one of the MFD?  Is there more than one AP mode that could be fighting me?

You'll see there is no more A/P notification on the left DDI and if you enter the AP menu on the UFCP, no mode is highlighted. Additionally, if you move the aircraft into a certain position, the aircraft should not move itself. 

As for modes, yes there are multiple that could interfere with you.

[Muchocracker]

you'll know the jet isnt in A/P when nothing is colonized on the UFC page. CSS you'll only know if it's engaged when the jet "feels" sluggish in the controls, CSS dampens the inputs in both pitch and roll. Hitting the paddle switch exits both. 

Edited January 24 by Muchocracker

[Hulkbust44]

you'll know the jet isnt in A/P when nothing is colonized on the UFC page. CSS you'll only know if it's engaged when the jet "feels" sluggish in the controls, CSS dampens the inputs in both pitch and roll. Hitting the paddle switch exits both. 

CSS will leave an A/P ADV btw

Sent from my moto g stylus 5G (2022) using Tapatalk

[rob10]

35 minutes ago, Muchocracker said:

you'll know the jet isnt in A/P when nothing is colonized on the UFC page. CSS you'll only know if it's engaged when the jet "feels" sluggish in the controls, CSS dampens the inputs in both pitch and roll. Hitting the paddle switch exits both.

That's not completely true.  If you're in CSS there will be an "A/P" advisory on the left DDI while it's active.  The other modes will also have advisory in the left DDI indicating they're active (i..e "BALT" for barometric altitude hold).

And trim pitch to centre the VV in the middle of the AOA staple that will come up on the HUD when gear is down to get correct AOA for landing.  And after that use THROTTLE to control your pitch (rather than stick) for your landing.  Seems counterintuitive when you 1st try to do that, but it is the proper way to do it.

[AngleOff66]

Thank you everyone.

I will keep trying.  While frustrating, I am ever so slowly learning from this.

 

[Joch1955]

To answer your AP question, pressing the AP disconnect switch will turn it off. Problem with AP is that it can sometimes be on with no indication and it will screw things up.

On Case 1 recovery. It is hard in the F/A-18 since everything has to be done correctly and parameters are tight.

To do it correctly, you have to learn the basics and practice them repeatedly until it becomes second nature.

1. Learn the correct procedure in the manuals and watch videos of how it works.

 

2. Learn how trim works correctly with the F/A-18 and the concept of reversed commands:

3. Practice airfield landings, both straight in approaches and the overhead break, until you can do them correctly consistently;

4. Only then should you try carrier landings;

5. One last tip, turn on the ILS. It will show you a cross which allows you to line up correctly on the Carrier.

Good Luck! Nothing more satisfying than catching the 3 wire.

Edited January 26 by Joch1955

[rob10]

32 minutes ago, Joch1955 said:

... Problem with AP is that it can sometimes be on with no indication ...

That is not true.  You will always have an advisory in the left DDI of either the A/P mode (i.e. BALT) OR if you're in CSS mode it will have an A/P advisory.  There is no way to have any part of the A/P on without an indication.

[Fresh]

I suspect CSS is another one of those lesser understood features of the Hornet..

Try this:

1. Fly straight and level, press the A/P button and then press and hold the ON/OFF button. (Make sure you have not selected any modes, you are now is "control stick steering" mode (CSS)).

2. Note the "ADV-A/P" advisory on the left DDI. Feel how the airplane responds. Note how much stick displacement you can make before the AP fails, also experiment with pitch and bank limits (gently)..  Master caution light comes on and "AUTO PILOT" displayed when the A/P fails.

3. Use the paddle switch to exit all AP modes. (Default "A" keyboard button).

4. Fly straight and level again, without any stick input/pressure. Press A/P and then press BALT mode. You will see the mode displayed in the left DDI "ADV-BALT". If you now use your stick gently in pitch the BALT mode will fail, but because it was gentle, the A/P reverts to CSS mode. If you had been rough CSS would also have failed, and you would be without A/P. Monitor your A/P mode with your DDI advisory.

Vertical modes (BALT/RALT) will let you change bank, lateral modes (CPL/HSEL) will let you change pitch.

5. Do 4. again, when you are in BALT mode, just press BALT button again.. note you have defaulted to CSS mode with "A/P" as well.

Certain failures will give you such mode reversion, e.g. switching off your radar altimeter when in RALT mode, or switching TACAN frequency when CPLD. Note: if you have a lateral AND a vertical mode active, and one of those modes fail, you will get the "AUTO PILOT" master caution, but you will still be in the unfailed mode. eg. you are in BALT/HSEL mode and change pitch, then you will be in HSEL mode laterally, and free vertically.

Have fun experimenting!

Fresh

Edited January 27 by Fresh

[average_pilot]

On 1/26/2024 at 3:13 PM, Joch1955 said:

and the concept of reversed commands

No command or control is reversed. That's just wrong nomenclature that refers to a different phenomenon.

What really happens is the Hornet stops doing the piloting part for you when the aircraft is configured to land. That surprises many people that still have to learn that airplanes are piloted by means of pitch trim and power and not by 'nose pointing where I want to go'.

Granted that FCS's obfuscate that in modern airplanes since they are designed deliberately to do that 'nose pointing' thing and relieve the workload of the human at the controls, plus the performance of jet engines makes things more complicated.

Edited January 31 by average_pilot
Extra bits

[Joch1955]

49 minutes ago, average_pilot said:

No command or control is reversed. That's just wrong nomenclature that refers to a different phenomenon.

 

‘Reversed commands” is what it is called.

The concept itself is easy enough to understand.

[MTrenda]

Hey angel, 

 

Can I ask you where the E bracket is compared to your velocity vector.  If you look at the post from joch1955 the bottom video has a picture at the bottom left.  these are the two indicator that you are "On Speed".  the orange donut means the nose and tail of the aircraft are pitched correctly creating an 8 degree angle along a horizontal plain going the "Center" quoted because there are many factors to the center.  Once you get to 150 knots throttle is used to keep the altitude of the aircraft not pitch (joystick). More throttle raises aircraft, less throttle aircraft descends this is hard to understand since most regular aviation does not use this method, it is stick control.  ok now that you 150, full flaps, gear, the E bracket will be high on the HUD compared to the Velocity vector.  use trim to move the velocity vector to the center of the E bracket. As you do this you need to add some throttle since you are now pitching the nose and lower the tail.  remember at this point it is throttle to keep the aircraft flying level, not the stick, if move the stick it will change the E bracket. At this point the donut should be orange and the velocity vector should be in the middle of the e bracket.

to practice I fly at 3000 feet and reduce speed to "on speed" this means gear out, full flaps, orange donut, and velocity vector in the middle of the e bracket.  practice using the throttle to increase altitude and decrease altitude within a +- 7 degree.  3 degree is the target glide scope, 5 degree is a major correction, 7 is an aggressive correction, anything greater is out of parameters and needs to be corrected.  you are looking for small corrections not massive ones and anticipate throttle. It takes time for the engines to respond, so throttle before your 25 degree bank, not a lot just enough to bump the VV (velocity vector).  Any turn more then 25 degree you will start to lose lift and too much throttle will be required to keep the aircraft level so when level the wings to go straight the aircraft will climbing and then you be behind the curve trying to adjust. Do this practice until you feel you can go from full flight to "On speed" fluidly.

Ok let's talk groove time (time behind the boat trying to hold 3 degrees):

   When you get all the other items down you time behind the boat should be no longer then 18 seconds.  why is this important well i see a lot of pilots doing a straight in approach from miles out.  remember the approach is a line coming off the deck and going up 3 degrees so the farther back you are the higher you have to be to insect the line.  the further back I am the longer I have to hold the throttle and slope.  I can do it for a while but at some point I am going to fall off the line and then I am chasing the glide slope.  If I choose not to go higher when farther out then I have to make and aggressive cut on the throttle to go from level flight to 3 degree descent and even the lucky pilot are going to miss this most of the time.   

ok when to turn in then?  make sure you are 1.1 to 1.5 NM from the mid part of the boat, be on speed and when you are parallel with the tail of the boat, think throttle bump, turn 25 degree, and let the VV come down to 2-3 degree descent (using throttle to adjust not stick).  you feel like you not going to make the turn but you will.  when you pass the wake of the boat you nose should be coming around to point at the tower.  ok at this point the VV should not be on the wires it should be at the front of the boat and at a 3 degree descent.  remember the boat should be moving and if you point at the wires they will not be there when you get there.  Also the landing is angled so she will slip to the right, point your VV over to CAT 1,2 to keep from sliding left of the landing.

the suggestion to have the ILS on is a good one it really helps to visualize where you're at but make sure you can land just as good without it, in case it is not available.  Don't get frustrated, take your time, break the case 1 up into parts and practice just those parts.  The break from over the carrier @ 350 knts, 800 feet to parallel the carrier, flying the reciprocal at "On speed" at 1.1-1.5 nm at 600 feet. then add the base turn.  2-3 degree descend, 22 - 27 degree turn, ending up past the wake on lineup with the landing at 450 -495 based on distance. then practice the landing and position of the VV on the bow of the boat and maintaining the 3 degree descent to the carrier deck.  Remember this, you are supposed to drag the hook across the  wires, not slam the Jet into the deck.

Hope this helps 

 

Falcon (JTF-191)

[Chaffee]

@AngleOff66 Here's what works for me: Keeping it simple. Don't overthink it.

1) Don't "chase" the throttle
2) Put the Velocity Vector symbol in the E-Bracket
3) Put the Velocity Vector on the wires

It's steeper than you think. "Plant it" on the deck. The gear can take it.

Start by avoiding the fantail  Seriously, though. Aim long. The boat is moving. And don't be afraid to bolter. It's a lot better than a ramp strike. 

[Nealius]

8 minutes ago, Chaffee said:

3) Put the Velocity Vector on the wires

Only one correction, velocity vector on the crotch (or thereabouts), as the carrier is moving away and slightly to the right to make wind over deck. Precisely where you put the velocity vector will vary depending on how fast or slow the carrier is moving, but it will always be right of the wires unless the carrier is dead in the water. 

Edited February 1 by Nealius

[Chaffee]

1 minute ago, Nealius said:

Only one correction, velocity vector on the crotch (or thereabouts), as the carrier is moving away and slightly to the right to make wind over deck. Precisely where you put the velocity vector will vary depending on how fast or slow the carrier is moving, but it will always be right of the wires unless the carrier is dead in the water. 

 

That's probably true. It always feels like it's "on the wires" to me, but that's just my perception filling in some gaps. If I aim for no. 4, I catch no. 2. 

Honestly, this video of Rear Admiral Mike Manazir landing the DCS F-14 really helped me. He seems high to me, but then just nails it, so I just started copying that: (this should be timestamped, but if not, check it at 17:11)

 

[BuzzU]

Keep in mind the real pilots practiced on airfields until they do perfect landings 100% of the time. You should do the same thing. Any little mistake on an airfield might kill you landing on the boat. When you can repeat perfect landings on an airfield 100% of the time. You'll be ready to move to the boat.

[Nealius]

FCLP can't hurt, but I don't feel it's neccessary for a variety of reasons. One being this is a game and it doesn't matter if you smack into the back of the boat. Second, FLCP has no ship movement and no angled deck, making the groove very different than at the boat. I think the more practical way for us simmers to go about it is to practice getting on-speed, and flying the carrier pattern on-speed at 1,000ft plus the pattern altitudes. E.g.: Break at 1,800, downwind 1,600, end your pass at 1,000. That way you get used to the aircraft's handling. Then you take her to the boat. That way we don't have to unlearn the pattern differences between FCLP and an actual moving ship with an angled deck.

[AngleOff66]

On 1/31/2024 at 8:06 PM, MTrenda said:

Hey angel, 

 

Ok let's talk groove time (time behind the boat trying to hold 3 degrees):

   When you get all the other items down you time behind the boat should be no longer then 18 seconds.  why is this important well i see a lot of pilots doing a straight in approach from miles out.  remember the approach is a line coming off the deck and going up 3 degrees so the farther back you are the higher you have to be to insect the line.  the further back I am the longer I have to hold the throttle and slope.  I can do it for a while but at some point I am going to fall off the line and then I am chasing the glide slope.  If I choose not to go higher when farther out then I have to make and aggressive cut on the throttle to go from level flight to 3 degree descent and even the lucky pilot are going to miss this most of the time.   

ok when to turn in then?  make sure you are 1.1 to 1.5 NM from the mid part of the boat, be on speed and when you are parallel with the tail of the boat, think throttle bump, turn 25 degree, and let the VV come down to 2-3 degree descent (using throttle to adjust not stick).  you feel like you not going to make the turn but you will.  when you pass the wake of the boat you nose should be coming around to point at the tower.  ok at this point the VV should not be on the wires it should be at the front of the boat and at a 3 degree descent.  remember the boat should be moving and if you point at the wires they will not be there when you get there.  Also the landing is angled so she will slip to the right, point your VV over to CAT 1,2 to keep from sliding left of the landing.

the suggestion to have the ILS on is a good one it really helps to visualize where you're at but make sure you can land just as good without it, in case it is not available.  Don't get frustrated, take your time, break the case 1 up into parts and practice just those parts.  The break from over the carrier @ 350 knts, 800 feet to parallel the carrier, flying the reciprocal at "On speed" at 1.1-1.5 nm at 600 feet. then add the base turn.  2-3 degree descend, 22 - 27 degree turn, ending up past the wake on lineup with the landing at 450 -495 based on distance. then practice the landing and position of the VV on the bow of the boat and maintaining the 3 degree descent to the carrier deck.  Remember this, you are supposed to drag the hook across the  wires, not slam the Jet into the deck.

Hope this helps 

 

Falcon (JTF-191)

Thanks everyone. 

I've very slowly been making some headway.  So all your advice is helping.

In the F-18 training missions, I can land on the runway at around 130ish. NP.  I can maintain the doughnut at 8.1 now, but carrier still giving me a migraine.

A few things:

I am coming in too flat.  Tying to break that habit.

I made a mission with the carrier straight ahead(though I have to adjust for the angle deck.)  Yes one of those miles away approaches.

I may have set the fuel too low as when I get around 150 she starts to climb? Approx weight is 30000lbs. Clean bird.

Wind is set at Zero for this but I've noticed that she slowly keeps moving to the right or left even with wings level. I've neutralized the bank I think when I adjust.

I should check my joystick settings. Or see if I need a new joystick.  VKB/Virpil here I come! j/k 

I've experienced the Burble coming in at around 130 pushing me to the left.

Thanks everyone for the advice.

I will keep trying. 

[Akula]

Best advice I would give is to fly the jet. As long as you're on the ball-stable, your hook is down and you are aiming for the crotch of the ship at 3/4 mile you should be able to fly it in without too many adjustments. Try straight in landings first and get used to them. Once you are comfortable with that do case 1. Let your head and muscle memory absorb the visual cues on final until you can do it with your eyes closed. Case 1 is tough to get right as per the text book but it's not impossible and takes time to perfect. 

Lastly, fly the jet.  

[SteelPig]

If you have such a bad time flying on speed, don't start with landing on the carrier. Start with setting and maintaining on speed in a straight flight or if you want in overhead pattern. When you are good in that,then come back to the carrier.

 

[Stearmandriver]

On 2/10/2024 at 7:48 PM, AngleOff66 said:

I've experienced the Burble coming in at around 130 pushing me to the left.

The burble won't push you left, it'll just give you updrafts or downdrafts.  I haven't tried it in a while, but unless it's been improved since it was originally introduced, it's a ridiculous effect.  Worth turning off wake turbulence in your missions to disable it (considering wake turbulence was always modeled unrealistically in DCS anyway, there's no real reason to have it on.)

Note that you will appear to be continuously moving to the left on final though, because the landing area is actually moving to the right due to the ship's forward motion.  So you'll be either crabbing, or continuously correcting, to the right for lineup.

[EmJay22]

While watching this video linked above 

 

I noticed the Red Controls Indicator in the lower left showing the amount of pitch trim that is being applied.

I also noticed that if your speed increases very much over 250 with gear down, that tic mark goes away and the pitch trim seems to reset.  And then it becomes necessary to reset pitch Trim to get to On Speed AOA.  Of course landing gear are not supposed to be lowered above 250 so this makes sense.

Or is this not correct?

 

Thanks

 

 

 

[rob10]

When you get much over 250 kts your FLAPS will automatically retract (go into AUTO mode) and since in AUTO it will automatically trim to 1G, that's why the indicator would disappear in that scenario.

[EmJay22]

28 minutes ago, rob10 said:

When you get much over 250 kts your FLAPS will automatically retract (go into AUTO mode) and since in AUTO it will automatically trim to 1G, that's why the indicator would disappear in that scenario.

Well, that 'splains it!! LOL

I guess I forgot to mail in that postcard when I bought this module over a year ago so they would send me my copy of the F/A-18C NATOPS manual.

Edited February 18 by EmJay22
add dumb comment

[rob10]

16 minutes ago, EmJay22 said:

I guess I forgot to mail in that postcard when I bought this module over a year ago so they would send me my copy of the F/A-18C NATOPS manual.

I've been flying the F-18 since it came out and I'm still learning new things (and rediscovering things that I'm sure I knew at one point and forgot).