F4 Phantom Vs. Mig 21

[kennyuk77]

Anyone else looking forward to this contest? Hoping for some solid SP content using this matchup. Come on ED! Vietnam map now!!!!

[Gunfreak]

MiG21 AI flight behaviour is boorked. So might be very frustrating (like F86 vs MiG15 AI)

[TOViper]

Try a human opponent, and it may become (more or less) equally balanced ...

[Doc3908]

1 hour ago, Gunfreak said:

MiG21 AI flight behaviour is boorked. So might be very frustrating (like F86 vs MiG15 AI)

Every AI airplane's behavior is messed up right now - they all fly like UFOs. But, like TOViper said, I do look forward to trying the Mig-21 vs. F-4 contest (from both sides) against human opponents. 

[Gunfreak]

1 hour ago, Doc3908 said:

Every AI airplane's behavior is messed up right now - they all fly like UFOs. But, like TOViper said, I do look forward to trying the Mig-21 vs. F-4 contest (from both sides) against human opponents. 

Nah, most jets fly okish(exception being the MiG15 and 21. It doesn't matter much if you fly an F18 or 16.

But when flying aircraft closer in age and performance. It gets very tiresome.

Like F86 vs MiG15 or F5 vs MiG21(It's actually easier to win a fight against a MiG29 than a MiG21 in the F5)

[Kalasnkova74]

3 hours ago, kennyuk77 said:

Anyone else looking forward to this contest? Hoping for some solid SP content using this matchup. Come on ED! Vietnam map now!!!!

Not to spoil your enthusiasm, but “MiG-21 vs F-4E” won’t be as exciting as you may think. 

IRL, 60% of the kills on both sides in SEA were unobserved ambushes . No turns or aircraft maneuvering kung fu, just a supersonic GCI/ Red Crown managed pass and a burning victim. Lacking those resources , in DCS it’s going to come down to pilot familiarity with their aircraft. 

IMO, the “airplane kung fu” match I’m curious to see is the MiG-19PF vs F-4E. The Farmer has much better subsonic acceleration, canopy visibility, and comparable low speed turn performance vs the F-4E. 

[addman]

6 hours ago, Kalasnkova74 said:

Not to spoil your enthusiasm, but “MiG-21 vs F-4E” won’t be as exciting as you may think. 

IRL, 60% of the kills on both sides in SEA were unobserved ambushes . No turns or aircraft maneuvering kung fu, just a supersonic GCI/ Red Crown managed pass and a burning victim. Lacking those resources , in DCS it’s going to come down to pilot familiarity with their aircraft. 

IMO, the “airplane kung fu” match I’m curious to see is the MiG-19PF vs F-4E. The Farmer has much better subsonic acceleration, canopy visibility, and comparable low speed turn performance vs the F-4E. 

+1 It get's more and more obvious the more you listen to interviews with veteran Vietnam war pilots. Either the US pilots got ambushed or they accidentally spotted som MiGs down below which they in turn jumped, often the MiGs weren't even aware they were jumped until a missile hit them or nearly missed. Other times they tangled up and after a few turns and yo-yos they completely lost sight of eachother and just turned home to respective home airfields.

The "growling sidewinder" dogfights were probably exceptions to the norm. Hate to brake it but irl wasn't like DCS.

[Oesau]

Sounds like me flying MP now days - flying along and then boom, I’m dead  

[Gunfreak]

6 hours ago, Kalasnkova74 said:

Not to spoil your enthusiasm, but “MiG-21 vs F-4E” won’t be as exciting as you may think. 

IRL, 60% of the kills on both sides in SEA were unobserved ambushes . No turns or aircraft maneuvering kung fu, just a supersonic GCI/ Red Crown managed pass and a burning victim. Lacking those resources , in DCS it’s going to come down to pilot familiarity with their aircraft. 

IMO, the “airplane kung fu” match I’m curious to see is the MiG-19PF vs F-4E. The Farmer has much better subsonic acceleration, canopy visibility, and comparable low speed turn performance vs the F-4E. 

Same would be true for all air combat always. Even in slow moving biplanes. You'd most likely die from the enemy you didn't know was there. Same in WW2 even top aces rarely shot down their enemies in action packed dogfights. They would dive down blast a plane and disappear. As even the best of the best would have problems hitting an enemy that manoeuvred to avoid getting shot.

Same for later wars to. The F105 and MiGs traded surprise kills on each other during rolling thunder. 

And I'm guessing the same is true for later wars than that. Seems like quite a few Iraqis suddenly exploded from AIM-54s during the Iran-Iraq war.

[Exorcet]

10 hours ago, TOViper said:

Try a human opponent, and it may become (more or less) equally balanced ...

The F-4 will dominate the MiG. Some of the factors that made the MiG threatening in reality like RoE and missile reliability may not be present in DCS. The MiG-23/Mirage F1 will be the fighter to use to go against the F-4. Fishbeds should avoid Phantoms and try to go after Tiger II's.

[Dragon1-1]

MiG-21s were threatening because they would sneak around the Phantom's back and bushwhack any flyboys who didn't watch their six. The F-4 will undoubtedly dominate if it can engage the MiG-21 at long range, but if the MiG is smart and the terrain not flat, it won't come to that. Also, while the actual (older generation) MiGs that Phantoms faced in Vietnam were generally better dogfighters, our bis is no slouch, either, particularly with the special afterburner on. Whether an F-5 is a safer target or not depends on the situation at hand, because it can be pretty nimble, and it'll outturn your MiG-21 quite handily. The soft wing Phantom should be a decent turner, but not on F-5's level.

Either way, as it often is with older jets, the pilot's skill ultimately matters the most. There are ways around BVR and besides, the early Sparrow barely qualifies there. When the fight is down to guns and rear aspect heaters, it's all about the pilot.

[SgtPappy]

16 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

MiG-21s were threatening because they would sneak around the Phantom's back and bushwhack any flyboys who didn't watch their six. The F-4 will undoubtedly dominate if it can engage the MiG-21 at long range, but if the MiG is smart and the terrain not flat, it won't come to that. Also, while the actual (older generation) MiGs that Phantoms faced in Vietnam were generally better dogfighters, our bis is no slouch, either, particularly with the special afterburner on. Whether an F-5 is a safer target or not depends on the situation at hand, because it can be pretty nimble, and it'll outturn your MiG-21 quite handily. The soft wing Phantom should be a decent turner, but not on F-5's level.

Either way, as it often is with older jets, the pilot's skill ultimately matters the most. There are ways around BVR and besides, the early Sparrow barely qualifies there. When the fight is down to guns and rear aspect heaters, it's all about the pilot.

In regards to the F-5E, the conclusion, like usual, it isn't that simple. Instantaneous turn rate is a bit better for the F-5E, but I believe in DCS, it underperforms there due to its inability to reach the ~40 deg. AoA it should be capable of reaching. In terms of sustained rate, the slatted F-4E has the slight edge but I can see that going away with a full missile load. See real data/data calculated from real manuals here: 

In a clean, DACT environment with just guns, the F-4E will be superior in the 2 circle/rate fight. However... as always, there many other ways to win a fight.

[_BringTheReign_]

32 minutes ago, SgtPappy said:

F-5E, but I believe in DCS, it underperforms there due to its inability to reach the ~40 deg. AoA it should be capable of reaching.

Is there a bug report open for this flight model issue? It seems like that would be pretty significant in close combat!

[SgtPappy]

31 minutes ago, _BringTheReign_ said:

Is there a bug report open for this flight model issue? It seems like that would be pretty significant in close combat!

There is: 

 

Furthermore, the MiG-21 is performing too well at low speeds - it sustains the same turn rate at very low speeds which is why if you rate fight one clean in an F-5E, the MiG-21 will actually beat you:

 

Hopefully these both get addressed at some point.

[HWasp]

19 hours ago, Exorcet said:

The F-4 will dominate the MiG. Some of the factors that made the MiG threatening in reality like RoE and missile reliability may not be present in DCS. The MiG-23/Mirage F1 will be the fighter to use to go against the F-4. Fishbeds should avoid Phantoms and try to go after Tiger II's.

That's unlikely due to the radar of the F-4. It will be difficult to avoid merges.

Once there F-4s will need to be very careful not to get sucked into a low speed fight, because as mentioned above, the DCS 21 does overperform there quite a bit. It will be interesting, can't wait...

[_BringTheReign_]

2 hours ago, SgtPappy said:

Hopefully these both get addressed at some point.

Thank you, and agreed!!