Issues with TrackIR placement on 55" TV's

[maverick90]

I have a 55" 4k TV mounted to a wall and sit at my desk when playing DCS. But it's giving me problems since I have the TrackIR mounted to the top of the tv and the angle to my head is kind of steep. When I'm in DCS and turning to the sides to see the left/right console of my plane, the view gets all crazy and I have to move my seat further back to get it to track better, but then I'm too far back and can't reach my keybord/mouse. It's very frustrating and definitely ruining my experience. I don't have much options on where to mount my TrackIR. If I place it on the table then it's the same problem. It will have to aim up very steep (i wear the track ir clip on my hat). There's no way for it to aim directly at me since my TV is too big.

[LucShep]

 Yep, happens with most TVs and also with some Monitors (always had that problem too with mine).

Easily fixed with some velcro adhesive tape, very effective. 

And if the angle is too steep, or simply to create some support, you can also cut some foam to fill in the space.

You just need to be creative.  

There are many other similar velcro adhesive tape products but, for example, something like this:
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Self-Adhesive+Velcro+Tape%2C+8M%2C+Extra+Strong%2C+Double-Sided+Adhesive%2C+Velcro+Fastener%2C+Self-Adhesive+Adhesive+Pad%2C+20+mm+Wide%2C+Black&s=price-asc-rank&crid=2HT2FE054T1BI&qid=1713644845&sprefix=self-adhesive+velcro+tape%2C+8m%2C+extra+strong%2C+double-sided+adhesive%2C+velcro+fastener%2C+self-adhesive+adhesive+pad%2C+20+mm+wide%2C+black%2Caps%2C177&ref=sr_st_price-asc-rank&ds=v1%3Afnw81IuiXzA10n41DGN5%2BwdW96r3s5d%2FF7eW%2BWddxLE

As for the foam (which may end up being not necessary), most products these days come with foam inside the boxes to secure the content (and any type will do).

Edited April 20 by LucShep

[SharpeXB]

Have you tried the view setting where you can see the lights location on the camera? Then set the camera angle so they’ll be in the center. I have a fairly large screen but don’t have any trouble with getting it aligned. 

[maverick90]

On 4/20/2024 at 3:30 PM, LucShep said:

 Yep, happens with most TVs and also with some Monitors (always had that problem too with mine).

Easily fixed with some velcro adhesive tape, very effective. 

And if the angle is too steep, or simply to create some support, you can also cut some foam to fill in the space.

You just need to be creative.  

There are many other similar velcro adhesive tape products but, for example, something like this:
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=Self-Adhesive+Velcro+Tape%2C+8M%2C+Extra+Strong%2C+Double-Sided+Adhesive%2C+Velcro+Fastener%2C+Self-Adhesive+Adhesive+Pad%2C+20+mm+Wide%2C+Black&s=price-asc-rank&crid=2HT2FE054T1BI&qid=1713644845&sprefix=self-adhesive+velcro+tape%2C+8m%2C+extra+strong%2C+double-sided+adhesive%2C+velcro+fastener%2C+self-adhesive+adhesive+pad%2C+20+mm+wide%2C+black%2Caps%2C177&ref=sr_st_price-asc-rank&ds=v1%3Afnw81IuiXzA10n41DGN5%2BwdW96r3s5d%2FF7eW%2BWddxLE

As for the foam (which may end up being not necessary), most products these days come with foam inside the boxes to secure the content (and any type will do).

 

I'm not sure if I'm understanding correctly. But how would velcro fix the problem? 

On 4/20/2024 at 10:43 PM, SharpeXB said:

Have you tried the view setting where you can see the lights location on the camera? Then set the camera angle so they’ll be in the center. I have a fairly large screen but don’t have any trouble with getting it aligned. 

Do you mean in the Track IR app where you can see the green dots? If so, then yes I believe it's already set properly but I will recheck again.

[SharpeXB]

7 hours ago, maverick90 said:

Do you mean in the Track IR app where you can see the green dots? If so, then yes I believe it's already set properly but I will recheck again.

Yes there’s a camera view that shows you what it sees, i.e. the reflectors. The mounting can tip and flex quite a bit so I imagine it’s possible to aim it at the reflectors even if it’s quite high up. Mine is on top of a 48” screen. 

[Hiob]

On 4/19/2024 at 8:24 PM, maverick90 said:

I have a 55" 4k TV mounted to a wall and sit at my desk when playing DCS. But it's giving me problems since I have the TrackIR mounted to the top of the tv and the angle to my head is kind of steep. When I'm in DCS and turning to the sides to see the left/right console of my plane, the view gets all crazy and I have to move my seat further back to get it to track better, but then I'm too far back and can't reach my keybord/mouse. It's very frustrating and definitely ruining my experience. I don't have much options on where to mount my TrackIR. If I place it on the table then it's the same problem. It will have to aim up very steep (i wear the track ir clip on my hat). There's no way for it to aim directly at me since my TV is too big.

The angle between IR camera and reflectors is more imprtant than the horizontal or vertical offset  - as far as I can tell. 

Try to point down the camera and try to wear your cap a little bit further back. You can also try to bend (carefully!) the individual reflectors on the clip a bit back.

Try to achieve a direct line between the camera (with both pointing directly to eachother) and the reflectors when your head/seating is in the default neutral postion.

 

If all that doesn't work, you can try to use the active IR head device (I prefer the passive as well) and position the camera on the side of your TV.

Edited April 23 by Hiob

[kksnowbear]

FWIW I suspect the problem has to do with the location of the TV, relative to where your line of sight is.

The typical recommended arrangement is your line of sight (when at a 'default' relaxed or normal position) should fall at the top of the monitor, or close toward the top - I've seen some places say within a few inches of the top, for example.

What you don't want is your line of sight at the middle of the screen when using a large TV at a short distance (say, somewhere around 24").  This is not only improper for ergonomic reasons (neck/back strain) but will also cause problems with TrackIR.  (Note that some people 'get away' with line of sight at mid-screen as they're sitting further back; this is not the same geometric relationship as when you're sitting closer, since the relative angles change.  These same people sometimes recommend line of sight at mid-screen without considering that it's inappropriate if sitting closer to the monitor).  The reason for the ergonomic recommendations has to do with muscles in the neck and back, and the closer you sit to the monitor, the more 'displaced' from zero all the angles become, causing muscle strain and fatigue.  (This is easily corroborated online).

What happens is that the closer you sit to the monitor, the angle from centerline of the camera to the IR reflectors is increased, eventually to the point that the reflections can't be reliably 'seen' by the camera.  This is because you can't (practically) mount the camera in the middle of the screen.  Since the camera is (typically) on the top edge of the monitor, if you sit closer and align the monitor such the your line of sight is at the center of the screen, it forces a large angle between camera and reflectors.

If you lower the monitor, effectively moving your line of sight higher (toward the monitor/TV top edge) then you reduce the angle between the camera and the reflectors.

TrackIR isn't really designed to be used with a large screen TV at short distance.   That creates too large an angle, as discussed.   It's designed to be used with monitors that are much smaller than a 55" TV, at a shorter distance, and with your line of sight at/near the top edge of the display (as is the 'best practice' recommendation almost universally, not the middle of the screen).  That arrangement reduces the angle to nearly zero.  SInce TrackIR works with light and reflections - which don't generally bend lol - that angle needs to be close to zero or you have to compensate/offset somewhere else.  You can't just 'tilt' the reflectors up, because doing that means rotations in two of the three planes are not going to be level.  Ideally the 'displacement' between camera and reflectors is zero in all three axes, in practice it winds up being a matter of space and distance but should be kept as close to zero as possible to minimize the chance of having problems.

Or at least that's what it sounds like to me.

[SharpeXB]

My experience with a large monitor (the one I have is actually a “monitor”) is that 48” is about the largest size you can set on a normal desk with its 2” high stand and not be straining to look up at it. It works well and it’s very nice. Larger than this you might need an adjustable height desk or some home cockpit solution. I notice the OP says their screen is wall-mounted in front of a desk which makes sense. My screen is in a similar position against the wall across a desk at about 45” away and the TrackIR works just fine. I haven’t had to make any adjustments in the NaturalPoint software either, I just use its default settings and “smooth” preset.
Ergonomics aside I think the TrackIR camera can actually aim up or down more than your neck can.

Edited April 23 by SharpeXB

[MAXsenna]

Make some antlers and place them on the top of your headphones. Like Sharp/Hiob writes, use the app to actually see what the cam sees, and then bend the antlers to make the "image" prefect. With OpenTrack, one have have the possibility to have the camera behind you, and overt the axis. Not sure about TrackIR though.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[kksnowbear]

Again, as I already explained: Tilting (either the camera, the reflectors, or both) will absolutely result in rotation in one or more axes not being in a level plane.  For example your head and view will normally rotate in a level plane in the X axis when looking side to side - but tilting the camera/reflectors means that  TrackIR "sees" a plane that is not level on the same plane.  This results in tracking that doesn't follow head movement (and cannot be corrected via the software).

The more you tilt either camera or reflectors, worse it will get.  Again, ideally the camera and sensors/reflectors will be aligned on the same level, with zero angle displacement.  While this may not be entirely practical, it is optimal, and the closer you can get to optimal the better.

When the camera is on top of the monitor, having the monitor at the proper height (eyes at or near level with top edge) avoids the problems with angles being too great, and also falls within the almost universally accepted ergonomic practices that are proven to reduce strain and fatigue.

Edited April 23 by kksnowbear

[SharpeXB]

I’d be curious to know what the actual placement in question is. At least for me the line of sight and angle to the camera is almost the same on a larger farther away screen as a smaller closer one. The way the OP describes this it seems like the camera is far away enough, it shouldn’t need extreme tilting. 
PS this is how much tilt I have, that doesn’t affect TrackIR at all. 

Edited April 23 by SharpeXB

[kksnowbear]

Strictly as a guess, the way it sounds to me is OP has a larger screen, which is (probably) closer, thus forcing the larger angles I've discussed.  Tilting becomes necessary/greater so the camera can 'see' the reflectors, but that doesn't resolve the rotation problem.

He describes that moving back improves the tracking issues but is too far from the mouse/keyboard.

His statements, taken as a whole, to me sound like his monitor is too high at the distance it's mounted.

PS As I described above, you can get away with the centerline of the monitor being higher if you're further away. But the closer you get, the more important it becomes to have the top of the monitor inline with your eyes (ie same as the reflectors/LEDs).

Edited April 23 by kksnowbear

[kksnowbear]

Also, the OP more or less tells us he's close to the TV:

On 4/19/2024 at 2:24 PM, maverick90 said:

I have the TrackIR mounted to the top of the tv and the angle to my head is kind of steep.

Further away, shallower (lesser) the angle. Closer, more steep (greater) the angle.

[MAXsenna]

Strictly as a guess, the way it sounds to me is OP has a larger screen, which is (probably) closer, thus forcing the larger angles I've discussed.  Tilting becomes necessary/greater so the camera can 'see' the reflectors, but that doesn't resolve the rotation problem.
He describes that moving back improves the tracking issues but is too far from the mouse/keyboard.
His statements, taken as a whole, to me sound like his monitor is too high at the distance it's mounted.
PS As I described above, you can get away with the centerline of the monitor being higher if you're further away. But the closer you get, the more important it becomes to have the top of the monitor inline with your eyes (ie same as the reflectors/LEDs).

Exactly why he need antlers.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[kksnowbear]

5 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Exactly why he need antlers

LOL you are correct of course...just not sure if he *wants* antlers 

Definitely gets my vote for "most creative" solution!

Edited April 23 by kksnowbear

[SharpeXB]

It can be tough getting this stuff all set up to work well and ergonomically. Plenty of good ideas here:

 

[Hiob]

2 hours ago, kksnowbear said:

Again, as I already explained: Tilting (either the camera, the reflectors, or both) will absolutely result in rotation in one or more axes not being in a level plane.  For example your head and view will normally rotate in a level plane in the X axis when looking side to side - but tilting the camera/reflectors means that  TrackIR "sees" a plane that is not level on the same plane.  This results in tracking that doesn't follow head movement (and cannot be corrected via the software).

 

Nonsense! At least in a practical sense. 

TrackIR has no way of knowing if the line of sight between the Camera and sensors is tilted relative to the floor. 

I run it that way since forever, and my head movement is captured flawlessly.

Edited April 23 by Hiob

[MAXsenna]

Nonsense! At least in a practical sense. 
TrackIR has no way of knowing if the line of sight between the Camera and sensors is tilted relative to the floor. 
I run it that way since forever, and my head movement is captured flawlessly.

Can't comment on TrackIR, but I've seen in some videos that it compensate for what he's describing. In OpenTrack this happens to a certain degree, and if you have mounted the sensors to the side of your head, you will see some lean in/lean out movement, (zooming), depending on your curves. I've seen somewhere that TrackIR has a smart function to prevent this, and why I have planned to get me some real TrackIR, (only need the camera for the software), down the line. And I plan to make me some antlers with IR LEDs.

Sent from my SM-A536B using Tapatalk

[SharpeXB]

43 minutes ago, Hiob said:

TrackIR has no way of knowing if the line of sight between the Camera and sensors is tilted relative to the floor.

An interesting thought, TrackIR can discern the angle of the camera relative to the headset or reflectors. So maybe there’s some built in compensation for this. 

[maverick90]

The issue I'm having is when I'm turning my head to the left/right and downward (looking towards the console on the F18) the focusing will get out of whack like it can't pick up on what I'm trying to look at, and then somehow the view defaults back to the rear and I have to kind of move my head around and try it to reset the view back to the front and center of the cockpit. I fly the F18 and it makes it almost impossible to access the side console, especially the further back part of the side consoles is where the problem begins. 

Turning to the left/right looking outside of the canopy is fine though. It only happens when I turn left/right and look down towards the console that this happens.

Edited April 23 by maverick90

[kksnowbear]

1 hour ago, Hiob said:

TrackIR has no way of knowing if the line of sight between the Camera and sensors is tilted relative to the floor. 

I never said that. 

What I said was that the plane of rotation of your view side to side will be different than the plane of light (which doesn't bend) passing between camera and reflectors.

And it absolutely is. Unless, as I said, the camera and reflectors are level with the plane in which your head turns side to side.

Do I need to post a picture to prove this?

And TrackIR doesn't need to know sh*t about the level of the floor for this to happen. It happens inherently because you rotate your head side to side in a plane that is not that same as the angle of camera to reflectors, if you mount the camera too high. 

And although there may be some "compensation"  it is also absolute that it will get bad enough at a steep enough angle that software can't correct it. Light doesn't bend.  If the reflector is off angle enough, light will not be reflected back where tge camera can see it.  If it's approaching that angle, it will behave oddly.

8 minutes ago, maverick90 said:

The issue I'm having is when I'm turning my head to the left/right and downward (looking towards the console on the F18) the focusing will get out of whack like it can't pick up on what I'm trying to look at, and then somehow the view defaults back to the rear and I have to kind of move my head around and try it to reset the view back to the front and center of the cockpit. I fly the F18 and it makes it almost impossible to access the side console, especially the further back part of the side consoles is where the problem begins. 

Turning to the left/right looking outside of the canopy is fine though. It only happens when I turn left/right and look down towards the console that this happens.

 

How far from the screen are you sitting normally?

Edited April 23 by kksnowbear

[SharpeXB]

Do you see the LED light on the camera flicker which indicates it’s losing the reflector? Try adjusting the curves so you don’t have to move your head as much to look down. Or try adjusting the side to side sensitivity. It seems like you are blocking one of the reflectors. If you’re using the TrackClip you might want to try the Pro with the LEDs on it, those might be harder to block. 

Edited April 23 by SharpeXB

[maverick90]

17 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

How far from the screen are you sitting normally?

Here, I took a pic. The blue line represents roughly where the height of my eyes would be from Track IR's sensor.

Edited April 23 by maverick90

[kksnowbear]

10 minutes ago, kksnowbear said:

Turning to the left/right looking outside of the canopy is fine though. It only happens when I turn left/right and look down towards the console that this happens.

When you turn left right *and* look down, the angle is compound relative to centerline. The hypotenuse of the triangle gets longer.  You are approaching that distance/angle I described above.

[maverick90]

17 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

Do you see the LED light on the camera flicker which indicates it’s losing the reflector? Try adjusting the curves so you don’t have to move your head as much to look down. Or try adjusting the side to side sensitivity. It seems like you are blocking one of the reflectors. If you’re using the TrackClip you might want to try the Pro with the LEDs on it, those might be harder to block. 

 

I just did a test and it seems in the Track IR app those 3 green dots all disappear when I look left/right and downwards.

Maybe I should increase the angle when I'm looking in either of those directions so I don't have to tilt my head down so much in order to not lose sight of the green dots?

Edited April 23 by maverick90