AI Tu-16

[Northstar98]

Hi everyone,

With the release of the Kola map, there's a particular aircraft that's currently absent from DCS' roster that I feel would really help flesh out the region for the Cold War era (as well as giving us a Cold War era Soviet bomber that would fit well into the mid and late Cold War period).

Primarily, the variants I'm interested in are the:

• Tu-16K-10-26 [Badger-C Mod] / Tu-16K-26P (KSR-2-5-11) [Badger-G Mod] - these are primarily maritime strike aircraft, armed with long-range anti-ship missiles.

The main difference is that the former has a large, long-range radar in its nose and can fire the K-10 [AS-2 Kipper] anti-ship missile. The latter has a glazed nose, typical of bombers of its era and while it can't fire the K-10, it can fire the KSR-2 and -11 [AS-5 Kelt]. Both are able to fire the KSR-5 [AS-6 Kingfish] and both (albeit with the Tu-16K-10-26B version for the former) have conventional bombing capability.

• Tu-16RM-1 [Badger-D] - this is a maritime reconaissance version which is similar in appearance to the Badger-C (if you were to take the Badger-C, add a couple of radomes to the underside and delete the hardpoints for missiles, you'd be pretty much there). It lacks offensive armament.
• Tu-16P [Badger-J] - this is an electronic warfare aircraft designed to act as a strike escort. Obviously this would mostly just be decoartive without EW improvements to DCS. Externally it's fairly similar to the Badger-G (if you took the G, deleted the missile hardpoints and added a canoe-shaped radome along with 4 small air intakes to the bottom of it, you'd be pretty much there), like the Badger-D, it would lack offensive armament.

The units on the Kola map basing the Tu-16 are the following:

• 5th Maritime Missile Aviation Division (5th MRAD):
  • 924th Guards Maritime Missile Aviation Regiment (924th GvMRAP) - Tu-16K, Tu-16P. Based at Olenegorsk (previously at Severomorsk-1).
  • 987th Maritime Missile Aviation Regiment (987th MRAP) - Tu-16K. Based at Severomorsk-3.
• 967th Independent Long-Range Reconaissance Aviation Regiment (967th ODRAP) - Tu-16K-10-26, Tu-16RM. Based at Severomorsk-1.

Each aviation regiment having something like 30-40 aircraft each (at least circa 1990).

For the former, we would be missing appropriate weapons for them, see the spoiler below:

Spoiler

Tu-16K-10-26 [Badger-C Mod]:

• KSR-5N/M [AS-6 Kingfish A Mod 2/3]
• K-10S/SDV [AS-2 Kipper]

Tu-16K-26P [Badger-G]:

• KSR-2 [AS-5 Kelt]
• KSR-5N/M [AS-6 Kingfish A Mod 2/3]
• KSR-5P/MP [AS-6 Kingfish B Mod 2/3] (ARM)
• KSR-11 [AS-5 Kelt] (ARM)
• FAB-250M-54
• FAB-500M-54

There are probably other unguided bombs applicable to the Tu-16K-26P, but these 2 are probably the main ones.

Edited May 11 by Northstar98
Added some more detail about the Tu-16P

[Silver_Dragon]

My info...

Tu-16K-10-26 [Badger C Mod] Attack
Man Rtng: 0.5/0.5 Damage Value: 48
Size/Signature: Large/Large Bombsight: Manual

Counterm: 1st Gen D Inflight Refuel: N
Sensors: YeN radar, Gen 0 RWR

Throttle Setting/Speed in knots
Altitude Cruise Full Mil Reheat
Low: 300 360 --
Med: 405 440 --
High: 415 485 --
Ceiling: 12300 meters Engine Type: TJ
Cruise Range: 2535 nmi Int Fuel: 32200 kg

Ordnance Loadouts: Payload: 8000 kg
Def Guns: dorsal, ventral, tail twin AM-23 23mm (1.4) with PRS-1 Argon [Bee Hind] GFC
• 1 K-10SND or 1 KSR-5 (lightly loaded)
• 2 KSR-5
• 1 KS-10SND, 2 KSR-2 or 2 KSR-5
• 1 KS-10SN or 1 KS-10SNB, 2 KSR-5 (Tu-16K-10-26N)
• 32 FAB-100 or 32 FAB-250 or 12 FAB-500 externally (Tu-26K-10-26B)

Remarks: In Svc: 1970 - 1993
Navy conversions from Badger C. Ritsa is 180° 1st ES, requires radar to provide range for ARM. Lightly loaded with one missile, fully loaded with two missiles. Can increase payload to 13000 kg with reduced internal fuel. 85 conversions from Badger C. Ritsa is 1st gen ES in 270°-090° arc only. Flown by 987th MRAP, North and 124th MRAP, Black Sea. Estimate 1/3rd are ZA.
• Tu-16K-10-26: Tu-16K-10D conversions with KSR-5. Some fitted external bomb bombs 1974-76.
• Tu-16K-10-26B: Conversions 1974-76 with provision for external bombs. Uses radar to aim bombs. Fitted with Ritsa in 1976.
• Tu-16K-10-26N: Tu-16K-10N conversions. Can launch K-10SN and K-10SNB from Low altitude.
• Tu-16K-10-26P: Small number with Ritsa, KSR-5P and KSR-11 in 1976. Fitted with 2nd Gen ES and 2nd Gen J&D in 1980.
• Tu-16K-10-26PT: Tu-16K-10-26P with 2nd Gen ES added in 1980s.
• 1970s: Tail guns replaced by 1st Gen J. Radar YeN radar replaced by YeN-D.

Tu-16K-26 [Badger G Mod] Attack
Man Rtng: 0.5/0.5 Damage Value: 47
Size/Signature: Large/Large Bombsight: Ballistic

Counterm: 1st Gen J&D Inflight Refuel: N
Sensors: Rubin-1M radar, Gen 0 RWR

Throttle Setting/Speed in knots
Altitude Cruise Full Mil Reheat
Low: 300 360 --
Med: 430 480 --
High: 430 490 --
Ceiling: 12300 meters Engine Type: TJ
Cruise Range: 2635/2400 nmi Int Fuel: 29000/26450 kg

Ordnance Loadouts: Payload: 9000 kg
Def Guns: dorsal, ventral, tail twin AM-23 23mm (1.4) with PRS-1 Argon [Bee Hind] GFC
• 2 KSR-2 or KSR-5 or KSR-11 (KSR-2-5-11, K-26, K-26P)
• 2 KSR-2 or KSR-5 (Tu-16KSR-2-5)
• 2 KSR-5B (Tu-16K-26M)
• 2 KSR-5N (Tu-16K-26N)
• 2 KSR-5P or KSR-5PM (Tu-16K-26P)
• Tu-16K-26B, Tu-16K-26PB, either
• 24 OFAB-100-120 or 16 OFAB-250 or 24 FAB-250 or 18 FAB-500 or 6 FAB-1500 or 2 FAB-3000 (internal)
• Tu-16K-26B, either
• 16 FAB-100 or 16 FAB-250 or 8 FAB-500 (external)
• 16 OFAB-100NV or 16 OFAB-250 or 16 FAB-250 or 12 FAB-500 (high drag para-packs)
• 12 AMD-4-500 or IGDM-500 or MDM-3 or UDM-500 mines
• 8 ADM-2M or APM or IGDM-1000 or AGDM-2M Lira mines

Remarks: In Svc: 1970 - 1993
Air Force and Navy. Lightly loaded with one missile, fully loaded with two missiles. Ritsa is 1st gen ES in 270°-090° only. Aircraft with Rubin-1M radar use second figures and have fixed 23mm removed. Mine loadouts estimated.
• Tu-16KSR-2-5: 110 KSR-2/KSR-2A conversions. Retains offensive guns, fixed single AM-23 23mm (1.4)
• 1972: Fitted with internal bomb loads as Tu-16K-26PB.
• 1973: Some have Rubin-1K replaced by Rubin-1M.
• 1980s: Some fitted with KSR-5N.
• Tu-16KSR-2-5-11: 125 KSR-2-11 conversions with Ritsa. Cannot use KSR-5P.
• 1973: Some fitted with Rubin-1M. None fitted with Ritsa.
• 1974: Some fitted with provision for KSR-5P as Tu-26K-26P.
• 1980s: Some fitted with KSR-5N.
• Tu-16K-26: KSR-11-16 conversions with Ritsa. In service 1969.
• 1973: Some fitted with Rubin-1M radar. 14 Baltic fitted with Berkut radar replacing Rubin-1KV.
• Early 70s: Some fitted with external bombs as Tu-16K-26B.
• Late 70s: Some fitted with KSR-5B as Tu-26K-26M. Some with KSR-5M and KSR-11 as Tu-16K-26PM.
• 1980s: Some fitted with Rubin-1M, KSR-5N as Tu-26K-26N.

Tu-16RM-1/2 [Badger D] Reconnaissance
Man Rtng: 0.5/0.5 Damage Value: 47
Size/Signature: Large/Large Bombsight: None

Counterm: 1st Gen D Inflight Refuel: W
Sensors: YeN-R (RM-1) or Rubin-1K radar (RM-2), 1st Gen ES, Gen 0 RWR

Throttle Setting/Speed in knots
Altitude Cruise Full Mil Reheat
Low: 460 540 --
Med: 460 550 --
High: 460 500 --
Ceiling: 12300 meters Engine Type: TJ
Cruise Range: 3045/3235 nmi Int Fuel: 38880/41310 kg

Def Guns: dorsal, ventral, tail twin AM-23 23mm (1.4) with PRS-1 Argon [Bee Hind] GFC

Remarks: In Svc: 1962 - 1993
Navy only. Fuel and ranges for Tu-16RM-1/Tu-16RM-2.
• Tu-16RM-1: 24 converted from Tu-16K-10 between 1966 and 1967. Served in Northern - 967th ODRAP, and Pacific - 317th OSAP Elizovo 1966-93.
• Tu-16RM-2: 12 Tu-16R conversions. Northern Fleet only - 967th ODRAP Severomorsk-1 1962-93.

Tu-16SPS/P [Badger J] EW Jammer
Man Rtng: 0.5/0.5 Damage Value: 47
Size/Signature: Large/Large Bombsight: None
Sensors: RBP-4 Rubidy-MM radar, 1st Gen ES, Gen 0 RWR

Throttle Setting/Speed in knots
Altitude Cruise Full Mil Reheat
Low: 300 360 --
Med: 430 480 --
High: 430 520 --
Ceiling: 13100 meters Engine Type: TJ
Cruise Range: 2800 nmi Int Fuel: 34610 kg

Ordnance Loadouts: Payload: 9000 kg
Off Guns: 1 AM-23 23mm (1.4)
Def Guns: dorsal, ventral, tail twin AM-23 23mm (1.4) with PRS-1 Argon [Bee Hind] GFC
• 6 AMD-4-500M or 12 IGDM-500 or 12 UDM-500 or 4 large mines - AMD-2M or APM or IGDM-1000 or AGDM-2M Lira or RM-1 or Serpei or UDM-2

Remarks: In Svc: 1956/62 - 1994
Standoff radar jammer. Cannot use radar with jammer energized.
• Tu-16SPS: Air Force and Navy. 142 Tu-16SPS, 4 Tu-16SPS(ZA) delivered 1955-57 with SPS-1 or SPS-2 escort jammers, clutter rating 10. Takes one Tactical Turn to tune to newly detected radars. In service 1956 - 60s.
• Tu-16P Buket [Badger J]: Air Force only, 121 with SPS-55 Buket standoff jammer, clutter rating 13, 1st Gen D. In service 1962-94.
• Late 50s?: Tu-16SPS fitted with three ASO-16 bulk chaff dispensers for 40 nmi chaff corridor.
• 1962 on: Tu-16SPS converted to Tu-16P.
• 1970s-80s: Fitted with 2nd Gen J&D.
• Early 70s: Some Black Sea fitted to lay mines with ES and standoff radar jammer removed.
• Late 70s: Ten upgraded to Tu-19P Fikus. Can use radar while using standoff jammer.
• 1980s: Fitted with 3rd Gen J&D.
• Jan 79: Air Force has 104 Tu-16P.

Added Tu-16Z Tanker variants:

Tu-16Z [Badger A] Tanker
Man Rtng: 0.5/0.5 Damage Value: 48
Size/Signature: Large/Large Bombsight: Ballistic
Counterm: None Inflight Refuel: N/ZA
Sensors: RBP-4 Rubidy-MM radar, Gen 0 RWR

Throttle Setting/Speed in knots
Altitude Cruise Full Mil Reheat
Low: 300 360 --
Med: 430 480 --
High: 430 520 --
Ceiling: 12300 meters Engine Type: TJ
Cruise Range: 2755 nmi Int Fuel: 35480 kg

Ordnance Loadouts: Payload: 9000 kg
Off Guns: 1 AM-23 23mm (1.4)
Def Guns: Dorsal twin AM-23 23mm, ventral twin AM-23, tail twin AM-23 (1.2) with PRS-1 Argon [Bee Hind] GFC
• 8500 kg bay tank (fuel cannot be used by Tu-16Z)
• 24 FAB-250 or 18 FAB-500 or 6 FAB-1500 or 2 FAB-3000 or 1 FAB-5000 or 1 FAB-9000

Remarks: In Svc: 1957 - 1990s
Conversions of 114 Tu-16 with wingtip to wingtip refueling; tanker fitted to tow hose from starboard wingtip with receiver fitted on port wingtip. Standard is one squadron in Tu-16 Regiment. Can be converted to bomber, although capability later removed.
• Can refuel Tu-16 Badger noted as ZA - around 1/3rd fitted. Maximum transfer fuel is 19845 kg (bay tank plus some internal fuel) or 1540 nmi.
• 1958-61: Crews trained in inflight refueling. 59 Tu-16ZA in service.
• Mar 64: Air Force bombers refueling ceases with Tu-16Z. Air Force reconnaissance and Navy continues.

[Mike_Romeo]

Well in the mean time, you could grab the H-6 (chinese Tu-16) from the chinese assets pack and make a russian skin for it.

Edit: there is a russian skin for the H-6 on the userfiles: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3318443/

Edited May 5 by Mike_Romeo

[Northstar98]

15 hours ago, Mike_Romeo said:

Well in the mean time, you could grab the H-6 (chinese Tu-16) from the chinese assets pack and make a russian skin for it.

Edit: there is a russian skin for the H-6 on the userfiles: https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3318443/

I could, but it doesn't have the defensive armament that's more relevant for Cold War intercepts and directly impacts gameplay (especially seeing as Norway's F-16As only had Sidewinders at most) and in the case of the Tu-16K-10-26, it doesn't have missiles that come close to the same performance or size.

Edited May 6 by Northstar98

[MBot]

I agree with the original request for proper Badgers.

In the meantime I hang AS-4 on H-6 as a reasonable substitute for AS-6. Works well and looks ok enough together with the skin above.

[upyr1]

I think this would be a good request for Dekka. I don't think it would be too hard to convert the existing h-6 into a tu-16.

[Northstar98]

30 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

I think this would be a good request for Dekka. I don't think it would be too hard to convert the existing h-6 into a tu-16.

While the H-6J is derived from the Tu-16, the 3D model is quite a bit different, especially for the Tu-16K-10-26 and RM-1.

[upyr1]

19 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

While the H-6J is derived from the Tu-16, the 3D model is quite a bit different, especially for the Tu-16K-10-26 and RM-1.

While they might not be identical the real question here is how much time they think it will it take 

[Silver_Dragon]

4 hours ago, upyr1 said:

While they might not be identical the real question here is how much time they think it will it take 

Has need build the Soviet Tu-16 with specific versions. The Chinnese Tu-16s (H-6) has other diferent beasts with diferent system and capabilities.

Edited May 6 by Silver_Dragon

[upyr1]

4 hours ago, Silver_Dragon said:

Has need build the Soviet Tu-16 with specific versions. The Chinnese Tu-16s (H-6) has other diferent beasts with diferent system and capabilities.

 

I know there are quite a few differences, though the question is how hard would it be to convert the existing model? 

[Silver_Dragon]

5 hours ago, upyr1 said:

I know there are quite a few differences, though the question is how hard would it be to convert the existing model? 

Someone need build a real Soviet Tu-16 version, no a Chinesse H-6 3rd party 3D model with soviet textures to pass as a "Soviet Tu-16". The chinesse versions has making many changes on your superstructure and systems, that is not change the texture. That require a complete new 3d model with propper funtionality.

The actual Dekka H-6 require a complete redone and remade from scratch, and surely ED dont like depend from a 3rd party about a AI soviet aircraft.

Edited May 7 by Silver_Dragon

[Tank50us]

17 hours ago, Silver_Dragon said:

Someone need build a real Soviet Tu-16 version, no a Chinesse H-6 3rd party 3D model with soviet textures to pass as a "Soviet Tu-16". The chinesse versions has making many changes on your superstructure and systems, that is not change the texture. That require a complete new 3d model with propper funtionality.

The actual Dekka H-6 require a complete redone and remade from scratch, and surely ED dont like depend from a 3rd party about a AI soviet aircraft.

 

Given the nature of the CCP/PLAAF, wouldn't the H-6 we have just be a Chinese manufactured later-model Tu16? (By that, I mean the fact that they tend to take whatever the Russians/Soviets make, then switch the Russian lettering for Modern Chinese... and maybe make a few tiny tweeks to say it's totally not a copy)

[Northstar98]

5 hours ago, Tank50us said:

Given the nature of the CCP/PLAAF, wouldn't the H-6 we have just be a Chinese manufactured later-model Tu16? (By that, I mean the fact that they tend to take whatever the Russians/Soviets make, then switch the Russian lettering for Modern Chinese... and maybe make a few tiny tweeks to say it's totally not a copy)

The thing is, the H-6J doesn’t just have tiny tweaks.

It has no defensive armament (which I’d argue has a significant impact on gameplay, especially for Cold War intercepts).

It has a pretty different nose (the Badger-G and -J have glazed noses reminiscent of a WWII - 1950s bomber). Just to compare:

Here’s a Tu-16 (presumably some Badger-G variant or ELINT/EW variant):

And here’s a modern H-6 variant:

 

It has substantially different engines, with enlarged inlets.

Compared with the Badger-C it doesn’t have any missiles (without nodding AS-4s and even those are wrong, though at least it’s close to the AS-6, the AS-6 being essentially just a scaled down version) that come close to what it would be armed with.

Edited May 8 by Northstar98
Added images

[upyr1]

On 5/8/2024 at 1:54 AM, Northstar98 said:

The thing is, the H-6J doesn’t just have tiny tweaks.

It has no defensive armament (which I’d argue has a significant impact on gameplay, especially for Cold War intercepts).

It has a pretty different nose (the Badger-G and -J have glazed noses reminiscent of a WWII - 1950s bomber). Just to compare:

Here’s a Tu-16 (presumably some Badger-G variant or ELINT/EW variant):

And here’s a modern H-6 variant:

 

It has substantially different engines, with enlarged inlets.

Compared with the Badger-C it doesn’t have any missiles (without nodding AS-4s and even those are wrong, though at least it’s close to the AS-6, the AS-6 being essentially just a scaled down version) that come close to what it would be armed with.

 

While simply slapping a Soviet livery on the model we have won't work, I'm still wondering how hard would it be for Dekka to tweak the model and add the tail gun, right nose and antennae? 

[Silver_Dragon]

35 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

While simply slapping a Soviet livery on the model we have won't work, I'm still wondering how hard would it be for Dekka to tweak the model and add the tail gun, right nose and antennae? 

the engine naceles, the nose (soviet radar radome / cristal bomber), the wing, the undercarriage and the fuselage has diferences, has not only a minor changes.

[upyr1]

1 hour ago, Silver_Dragon said:

the engine naceles, the nose (soviet radar radome / cristal bomber), the wing, the undercarriage and the fuselage has diferences, has not only a minor changes.

The question though is what % would be the same? 

[Silver_Dragon]

5 hours ago, upyr1 said:

The question though is what % would be the same? 

40-50% I think

[Northstar98]

On 5/9/2024 at 4:11 PM, upyr1 said:

The question though is what % would be the same? 

It's difficult to say. I'd more say something like 20-30% in terms of the work.

You'd have to completely redo the nose, the engine nacelles, the tail. The fuselage would require significant changes also (the different nacelles and adding the defensive armament would require significant changes to the geometry).

I'm not aware of the differences between the wings, horizontal and vertical stabilisers. Though obviously, the hardpoints on the wings would be quite different (the -D and -J not having any) and there wouldn't be the same antennas on the vertical stabiliser (though that appears to be only at the tip).