So, Convince Me :D

[AhSoul]

I generally play DCS co-op with a few friends, mostly playing the excellent Pretense dynamic campaigns. I've recently found myself flying helicopters a lot more and when we play I'm often in the Apache or ferrying capture squads about in the Huey.

I love the look of the Kiowa, but I'm trying to justify to myself when I'd end up flying it....

As far as I'm aware there's no datalink to other aircraft, so if I go off reconning how is my lovely targeting data going to end up in the hands of my friends? Am I going to have to read out coordinates for them to enter into their TPODs? Am I going to end up trying to convince them to let me buddy lase when they could just use their own TPODs? I could do both of those things from the front seat of my Apache.

I don't want to buy another module that ends up gathering dust - I've got enough of those already.

So what will make the Kiowa the preferred choice? How would I integrate it best into our gameplay?

Thanks!

 

[LorenLuke]

8 hours ago, AhSoul said:

I generally play DCS co-op with a few friends, mostly playing the excellent Pretense dynamic campaigns. I've recently found myself flying helicopters a lot more and when we play I'm often in the Apache or ferrying capture squads about in the Huey.

I love the look of the Kiowa, but I'm trying to justify to myself when I'd end up flying it....

As far as I'm aware there's no datalink to other aircraft, so if I go off reconning how is my lovely targeting data going to end up in the hands of my friends? Am I going to have to read out coordinates for them to enter into their TPODs? Am I going to end up trying to convince them to let me buddy lase when they could just use their own TPODs? I could do both of those things from the front seat of my Apache.

I don't want to buy another module that ends up gathering dust - I've got enough of those already.

So what will make the Kiowa the preferred choice? How would I integrate it best into our gameplay?

Thanks!

 

So, a couple things it has that the Apache doesn't- APKWS laser rockets, and Stinger missiles. While the Gazelle might have the Mistral, you can't load anything but those on the aircraft, while the kiowa has two mix and match pylons of two missiles each. Additionally (though more extreme), the OH-58D has its observation equipment above the cockpit, like the Gazelle, although much higher and above the rotor, allowing it to observe from cover, giving it surveillance and coordination capabilities beyond what we have.

 

To your questions of working with friends, let's look at two points raised-

1) Laser Designator. Theoretically, you absolutely can do it as described where you lase for missiles the whole time. Alternatively, you can use the laser as a 'hey, look here', they use the LST, and then one on target, you slap their back and say 'go crazy'.

2) Talk on/Coords. You absolutely can do this, and I believe Kiowa supports MGRS (and Apache only supports 8digit MGRS input), so if you're very close together, you're looking at 2 letters and 6/8 numbers to hand off. With a good crew, it's not terribly difficult or time consuming to do.

And finally-

Both. By generating any target point(s) for them, they can turn them into an acquisition source to throw hellfires at in a high arc from behind cover, and then you lase the targets (also from behind cover), and you can engage units in the target zone without retaliation. 

[AhSoul]

i didn't know about the the APKWS and Stingers - that's great! For non/lightly-armoured targets that significantly increases the combat potential.

I'd forgotten about LST. Will definitely get my group to learn their LST functions on their TPODs so we can try this out. I guess we could use the Apache for that, but as you rightly point out the Kiowa can do it from behind cover due to the MMS.

In a CAS situation I wonder if my friends are going to have the time and space to plug MGRS coords into systems. But LST or smoke grenades plus talk-on might work.

I think part of the challenge will be getting the others to work this way - and not just buzz around finding targets by themselves.....

 

 

Edited May 8, 2024 by AhSoul

[LorenLuke]

6 hours ago, AhSoul said:

i didn't know about the the APKWS and Stingers - that's great! For non/lightly-armoured targets that significantly increases the combat potential.

I'd forgotten about LST. Will definitely get my group to learn their LST functions on their TPODs so we can try this out. I guess we could use the Apache for that, but as you rightly point out the Kiowa can do it from behind cover due to the MMS.

In a CAS situation I wonder if my friends are going to have the time and space to plug MGRS coords into systems. But LST or smoke grenades plus talk-on might work.

I think part of the challenge will be getting the others to work this way - and not just buzz around finding targets by themselves.....

Probably the best way to frame what it did (granted, DCS players may not necessarily adhere to this practice) is similar in some ways to  JTAC.

For a squad, the biggest ordinance they can carry might be a recoilless gun, or a 60mm mortar. But you give them a radio, suddenly it's like having a bunch of Mk82s in your back pocket. So in a way that the bombs on the jet are the JTAC's, the Kiowa can command the Apache's ordnance.

So with a flight of 3 with typical loadouts, the Kiowa might not be thought to have 2 Hellfires, but 26 (2+8 from each other aircraft). Obviously, if they want to break off and do their own thing, you can't stop them, but scouting for targets and directing fires as the 'Hunter' part of 'Hunter-Killer' teams is absolutely what this aircraft is designed to do. 

[AhSoul]

Yeah I think the issue is that this is a sim, not RL, and in the sim players tend to just go around shooting at stuff and generally not following command structure

[Jarhead0331]

How about the fact that it just looks bad ass…oh, and the M4. Definitely get it for the M4. 

[Grennymaster]

I see it from the prospektive of the time it was in duty. The main use was scout an lase or get Coordinates for targeting. its not just usefull for the Apache, every Aircraft can use the data you can give them, Dl was not a thing in the days back then dont get me wrong here, i love the DL System of the Apache, we use it a lot. But its not a deal breaker for me

the main advantage is see in using the Kiowa is: you hide your litte ass behind and lure just with the MMS, the Apache also hides behind the Line and can blast the Sh.... out of the targets without even be seen.

For use with Airplanes you can du the same

Best of all you got the premium seat to see the devastation

Ohh an and Jarhead metioned, you can shoot the M4 while flying and we got the AWKPS

I think it will be a lot of fun to use it in MP

[Czar66]

On 5/8/2024 at 6:21 AM, AhSoul said:

i didn't know about the the APKWS and Stingers - that's great! For non/lightly-armoured targets that significantly increases the combat potential.

 

 

 

 

No no... the APKWS is a monster, if it is the same one the Warthog (A-10CII) can carry with the MPP warhead. It can wreck any tank T-72s or bellow with a single hit. Think of the Vihkr for the Ka-50.

Edited June 6, 2024 by Czar66

[Ramsay]

7 minutes ago, Czar66 said:

... the APKWS is a monster, if it is the same one the Warthog (A-10CII) can carry with the MPP warhead.

The Kiowa Warrior never carried the MPP version, so KW APKWS loadouts are limited to the M151 HE warhead.

[AhSoul]

28 minutes ago, Grennymaster said:

I see it from the prospektive of the time it was in duty. The main use was scout an lase or get Coordinates for targeting. its not just usefull for the Apache, every Aircraft can use the data you can give them, Dl was not a thing in the days back then dont get me wrong here, i love the DL System of the Apache, we use it a lot. But its not a deal breaker for me

the main advantage is see in using the Kiowa is: you hide your litte ass behind and lure just with the MMS, the Apache also hides behind the Line and can blast the Sh.... out of the targets without even be seen.

For use with Airplanes you can du the same

Best of all you got the premium seat to see the devastation

Ohh an and Jarhead metioned, you can shoot the M4 while flying and we got the AWKPS

I think it will be a lot of fun to use it in MP

Yeah I agree. I think the harder part will be getting my mates to act semi-realistically, rather that just trying to lase and then bomb everything themselves.

There's no real penaltly for getting shotdown in a sim so they're pretty gung-ho  

[Czar66]

27 minutes ago, Ramsay said:

The Kiowa Warrior never carried the MPP version, so KW APKWS loadouts are limited to the M151 HE warhead.

Oh, that was close. Understood, thanks.

[Grennymaster]

vor 21 Minuten schrieb AhSoul:

Yeah I agree. I think the harder part will be getting my mates to act semi-realistically, rather that just trying to lase and then bomb everything themselves.

There's no real penaltly for getting shotdown in a sim so they're pretty gung-ho  

that i can totaly understand we play mostly Missions were a lost crew has effect on the whole szenario wich is fun and a pain in the ass at the same time

 

[AhSoul]

1 minute ago, Grennymaster said:

that i can totaly understand we play mostly Missions were a lost crew has effect on the whole szenario wich is fun and a pain in the ass at the same time

 

We mostly play Pretense. Are you making your scenarios up or do you have some good ones you use a lot (that perhaps you could share)?

I could try using Briefing Room to create some.

[Grennymaster]

vor einer Stunde schrieb AhSoul:

We mostly play Pretense. Are you making your scenarios up or do you have some good ones you use a lot (that perhaps you could share)?

I could try using Briefing Room to create some.

we build them in the squadrons, but the are moderatet so sharing is imposible .) its a bit the pretense idea, but controlled by us

 

[ArkashaLethal]

We play pretense in our private server as well. I won't lie to you. Aside from the Stinger and APKWS capability that the Apache lacks in DCS, there is not many functional things in the handling of pretense objectives that the Apache can't do. An Apache has just as good or better optics, even though they aren't mast-mounted. Additionally, if your friends are in the habit of flying solo Apaches and relying on George, he's near perfect at finding targets that you point him in the general direction of anyways. The fact of the matter is that an Apache is going to be able to find and destroy targets quickly and efficiently with or without a KWs help. This is part of the reason why the KW's role is now being filled by Apaches in real life. The KW's role as a scout helicopter is really not all that well represented in casual or semi-casual DCS gameplay either.

The KW shines in a couple areas. Coordination and target identification, and some of the little things it can do and how it does them. You might not be dropping tons of munitions on targets, but doing a fly over and dropping a smoke grenade on some poor guys head and watching him take a Hellfire to the face from your friend or communicating to your friends and lasing for spot track to get them on target or any other supporting scout role has a certain kind of satisfaction that some people are highly interested in for DCS. Even with less communication and coordination, consider a scenario where your friend in an Apache handles an objective by destroying AA and Armor threats from afar with Hellfires and then moves in to finish the objective with guns and rockets. A KW is a great aircraft to provide backup when an Apache moves in close. It's maneuverable and able to react quickly to anything firing on the Apache and engage it with rockets, .50 or even the pilots' M4s. In reality, while the Hunter-Killer capability that the KW adds to the game is cool and is a big part of why a lot of people are excited for it, it does take a group effort and it is time consuming to do. But the KW has more than just that to add to the game.

The light attack capability isn't as impressive as an Apache but sometimes firing a .50 cal machine gun or M4 from the cockpit or single rockets at a stubborn man with an AK or a supply convoy is more fun for some players than look-shoot-kill from an Apache IHADSS. Not to mention flying recon missions in Pretense will be nicer because while the Apache is a wonderful and capable aircraft, sometimes it flies like a brick with a propellor bolted to the top. The KW is simply easier and nicer flying in my opinion.

If communication and teamwork isn't something you are expecting from your buddies playing Pretense with you, and raw damage done is more important than the experience of flying the KayDub, then it simply might just not be the airframe for you.

tl;dr The KW might certainly not be as capable as an Apache when either are operating on its own. However, the KW operates in a role that, while not very well represented in DCS, is something that is highly interesting to some players.

[Hawkeye_UK]

11 hours ago, Czar66 said:

No no... the APKWS is a monster, if it is the same one the Warthog (A-10CII) can carry with the MPP warhead. It can wreck any tank with a single hit. Think of the Vihkr for the Ka-50.

Unless the APKWS for the A10 got changed in the last few patches, then they are certainly not one shotting a T80/T90/Challenger/Abrams MBT ingame - how do i know this - because i have tried them on every tank in game on a training range and on MP.

[Dangerzone]

The Kiowa would have had far more uses if it was released when originally planned (well before the Apache). People would have learned it more, and I'm sure it would have carried on as a result. Obviously unfortunate situations out of the Dev's hands occurred that stopped this from occurring, but I still think the Kiowa can have it's place.

Those who enjoy realism it fits into well for co-op. It's also another flight module to just enjoy for it's unique handling characteristics, and it's 'peak-a-boo' function that no other helicopter has. If you want a challenge, maybe use it with Apache's to take out 2 SA-19's. You might find that Apache's by themselves find this a more difficult task to keep the laser on target without getting shot down.

All the video's I've seen so far have had T-72's or BMP's, or things that aren't a threat to an Apache from a distance. Go big, or go home I say.

For those who don't mind sacrificing a little bit of realism for enjoyment - the Kiowa could be used as a good intermediate helicopter for armed CTLD. Adjust the script to allow the Kiowa to carry a crate for instance. Is it realistic. Well, maybe not. However it would give a unique place for this wonderful flight model in ongoing missions like pretense and open up more opportunities and uniqueness to this helo. I know for some this is heresy, so it's really up to what each individual group wants to get out of DCS.

For me, I'd be working my hardest to design or change missions to ensure that this module (and each) has their own unique options/abilities so that everyone can enjoy all the modules that DCS has to offer.

Edited June 6, 2024 by Dangerzone

[durka-durka]

11 hours ago, ArkashaLethal said:

We play pretense in our private server as well. I won't lie to you. Aside from the Stinger and APKWS capability that the Apache lacks in DCS, there is not many functional things in the handling of pretense objectives that the Apache can't do. An Apache has just as good or better optics, even though they aren't mast-mounted. Additionally, if your friends are in the habit of flying solo Apaches and relying on George, he's near perfect at finding targets that you point him in the general direction of anyways. The fact of the matter is that an Apache is going to be able to find and destroy targets quickly and efficiently with or without a KWs help. This is part of the reason why the KW's role is now being filled by Apaches in real life. The KW's role as a scout helicopter is really not all that well represented in casual or semi-casual DCS gameplay either.

The KW shines in a couple areas. Coordination and target identification, and some of the little things it can do and how it does them. You might not be dropping tons of munitions on targets, but doing a fly over and dropping a smoke grenade on some poor guys head and watching him take a Hellfire to the face from your friend or communicating to your friends and lasing for spot track to get them on target or any other supporting scout role has a certain kind of satisfaction that some people are highly interested in for DCS. Even with less communication and coordination, consider a scenario where your friend in an Apache handles an objective by destroying AA and Armor threats from afar with Hellfires and then moves in to finish the objective with guns and rockets. A KW is a great aircraft to provide backup when an Apache moves in close. It's maneuverable and able to react quickly to anything firing on the Apache and engage it with rockets, .50 or even the pilots' M4s. In reality, while the Hunter-Killer capability that the KW adds to the game is cool and is a big part of why a lot of people are excited for it, it does take a group effort and it is time consuming to do. But the KW has more than just that to add to the game.

The light attack capability isn't as impressive as an Apache but sometimes firing a .50 cal machine gun or M4 from the cockpit or single rockets at a stubborn man with an AK or a supply convoy is more fun for some players than look-shoot-kill from an Apache IHADSS. Not to mention flying recon missions in Pretense will be nicer because while the Apache is a wonderful and capable aircraft, sometimes it flies like a brick with a propellor bolted to the top. The KW is simply easier and nicer flying in my opinion.

If communication and teamwork isn't something you are expecting from your buddies playing Pretense with you, and raw damage done is more important than the experience of flying the KayDub, then it simply might just not be the airframe for you.

tl;dr The KW might certainly not be as capable as an Apache when either are operating on its own. However, the KW operates in a role that, while not very well represented in DCS, is something that is highly interesting to some players.

 

Best review/summation so far. And Dangerzone's is not far behind.  Conclusion: getting the most out of this airframe will require work to be put in either via mission makers or just groups when communicating.

[AhSoul]

So I picked the KW up last night and definitely don't regret it!

With a buddy in the left seat we had great fun reconning Pretense zones, spotting and lasing tanks for a mate in a Harrier, trying to shoot down Mi-8s with stingers, and killing infantry with the M4 out the side.

I'm gradually getting my group of players interesting in playing more 'realistically' and they're starting to see the benefits of having a KW on station and letting them fire precision munitions while not having to hold a TPOD lock so they can just break off and escape.

[Czar66]

23 hours ago, Hawkeye_UK said:

Unless the APKWS for the A10 got changed in the last few patches, then they are certainly not one shotting a T80/T90/Challenger/Abrams MBT ingame - how do i know this - because i have tried them on every tank in game on a training range and on MP.

That's fair, I might of been too fast to speak about it. I mostly engaged T-72s or under with it (MPP) so with further thought you may be correct about the T80s and 90s. I haven't used against blue tanks yet. Still a formidable weapon given how light it is and how many shots it carries per pod.

Thanks! Cheers.

Edited June 6, 2024 by Czar66

[71st_Mastiff]

Diner out with your lady, $70.00 +

 

Diner at home with your lady -$70.00

 

There ya go..

[LuseKofte]

On 5/8/2024 at 11:21 AM, AhSoul said:

APKWS

Those are neat. They can’t destroy heavy tanks but lighter armored is a go. 
Idk. If you can carry 4 hellfires but you can carry two and lase for buddies in Apache. 
All in all I do not know what I will be using this for, but it’s growing on me. I like it better than when I started. It is easy to shoot down ai Kiowa’s with guns. Stingers is as effective against other choppers as it Russian iglas. Absolute rubbish. 4 might do it. But they was easy to use and hits every time. 

[cfrag]

12 hours ago, 71st_Mastiff said:

Diner out with your lady, $70.00 +

I believe you overlooked the "1" before the "7"

12 hours ago, 71st_Mastiff said:

Diner at home with your lady -$70.00

Yeah, but neither cases finds me sitting with the Kiowa at the end of the evening, but said really nice lady...  

[AhSoul]

If all you want to do is blow stuff up, the Apache is better.

If you want to play as a JTAC/scout, work with team mates etc. and STILL be able to blow some stuff up yourself (just not as much especially heavy armour), then the KW is a lot of fun.

[AhSoul]

1 hour ago, Dzsekeb said:

I like doing quite a lot of stuff, but its all solo unfortunately, so not sure how the jtac/scout role fits in with the AI yet.

Yeah I think it's harder to find a use for it in SP, as you've no-one to pass data and intel to.