JUst installed Trial. Total newby

[DmitriKozlowsky]

JUst installed Trial. Total newby

Completely clueless

[DmitriKozlowsky]

So question on FCS. Is it digital FBW 1970's style. Roll feels like F-16. Where the roll stop is sharp when stick is centered.

[Bremspropeller]

No, it's not digital FBW.

Pitch and yaw are analogue FBW with a mechanical backup, roll is direct mechanical. Unless in AP, where roll (through +/-3° differential horizontal stab) is also FBW.

[Loukuins]

14 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

So question on FCS. Is it digital FBW 1970's style. Roll feels like F-16. Where the roll stop is sharp when stick is centered.

null

[DmitriKozlowsky]

I guess that explains why I keep loosing my wings when I roll too fast to pull to many G (without GLOC) .  How to they prevent this kind of catastrophic over-G airframe fail in real life? Is it not a 9G airframe?

[Bremspropeller]

It's a 7.2g airframe by the book.

It will take some more g to overstress and at 9g you'll normally not be hurt, but if you yank too much, you'll land ahead of your wings.

 

In real life? It starts getting uncomfortable beyond 6g.

[Hiob]

27 minutes ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

I guess that explains why I keep loosing my wings when I roll too fast to pull to many G (without GLOC) .  How to they prevent this kind of catastrophic over-G airframe fail in real life? Is it not a 9G airframe?

In RL the controls need like >20kg pull to even come close to 9G.... you don't yank that by accident.

[Loukuins]

3 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

I guess that explains why I keep loosing my wings when I roll too fast to pull to many G (without GLOC) .  How to they prevent this kind of catastrophic over-G airframe fail in real life? Is it not a 9G airframe?

It's not a FBW, there is no limit, only the fake force on the stick prevent you to do that

[Bozon]

14 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

How to they prevent this kind of catastrophic over-G airframe fail in real life?

In the sim you feel 1G in front of your screen no matter how hard you pull on the stick. You can pull 7G in game while drinking your beer. In real life, if you can’t hold the beer to your mouth and start spilling the beer then you are pulling too hard.

[fausete]

Hi @DmitriKozlowsky, as others have pointed out, a real pilot will have both the artificial feedback of the stick (goes up to 20 kg, which is definitely a noticeable amount of force) and the feeling of vertical acceleration (already 3 or 4 Gs are a very impressive feeling, let alone 7+ Gs).

Obviously we have no way to transmit the vertical acceleration but for FFB stick users the stick forces can be matched exactly through configuration sliders in the Special Option Menu. For the vast majority of users that don't have FFB, we recommend to have an option called 'Emulation of effects of stick forces on aircraft behaviour' checked. This option limits the range of pitch inputs of the joystick as a function of stick feedback force, emulating in a way how a pilot would pull a bit less on the stick in certain situations. When this option is checked, I find it rather difficult to rip the wings of the aircraft unless I set out to do it on purpose.

[Hiob]

18 minutes ago, fausete said:

Hi @DmitriKozlowsky, as others have pointed out, a real pilot will have both the artificial feedback of the stick (goes up to 20 kg, which is definitely a noticeable amount of force) and the feeling of vertical acceleration (already 3 or 4 Gs are a very impressive feeling, let alone 7+ Gs).

Obviously we have no way to transmit the vertical acceleration but for FFB stick users the stick forces can be matched exactly through configuration sliders in the Special Option Menu. 

Hey, fausete, while you are here - regarding ffb. 

When I pull hard back at high speeds, aka when the stick forces are very high, I get an osciliating "pumping" effekt on the stick. Any idea? Is that supposed to happen? Is it recommended to turn the emulated stick forces on or off with ffb enabled?

Thank you!

[fausete]

@Hiob completely up to you, I think I wouldn't use the emulate forces option if I flew with a FFB stick, as the purpose of the option is to represent the force on the stick, but it's up to personal preference. Regarding the 'pumping', 2 questions: what is your 'Shake effects on FFB stick set to' option set to and can you post a short TRK preferably in the Caucasus?

[Hiob]

6 minutes ago, fausete said:

@Hiob completely up to you, I think I wouldn't use the emulate forces option if I flew with a FFB stick, as the purpose of the option is to represent the force on the stick, but it's up to personal preference. Regarding the 'pumping', 2 questions: what is your 'Shake effects on FFB stick set to' option set to and can you post a short TRK preferably in the Caucasus?

I think, I left everything on default - or at least I didn't touch it intentionally. I will provide settings and a short track asap when I'm at home. Thank you.

It might very well be, that I just messed up the settings on my Rhino.

When I first tried it (The F1 was the first Jet I tried it with), I was completely blown away from it. The implementation in the F1 seemed perfect to me. Unfortunately, my Rhino software crashed at some point and I lost my first set of individual settings. Since then I learned how to backup them, but I can't get the F1 to feel that good anymore - mainly due to the pumping effect.

Edit:

You know the "spring/backlash"-effect, when you pull the elevator very hard and fast intentionally? The pumping feels a bit like that, even though I pull smoothly and with increasing strength when cornering hard.....

Edited May 21, 2024 by Hiob

[Hiob]

7 hours ago, fausete said:

@Hiob completely up to you, I think I wouldn't use the emulate forces option if I flew with a FFB stick, as the purpose of the option is to represent the force on the stick, but it's up to personal preference. Regarding the 'pumping', 2 questions: what is your 'Shake effects on FFB stick set to' option set to and can you post a short TRK preferably in the Caucasus?

Hey, while I was out to record a track for you, I played around with the Rhino settings and actually got it sorted out. I had to much gain on the „constant“ force and so spring and FFB basically fought each other or engaged in some kind of feedback loop. Long story short - I messed up the settings for my Stick and the F1 was completely innocent. Thank you anyway. You gave me the right idea.

And let me emphasise again, that the FFB in the F1 is  

[average_pilot]

On 5/21/2024 at 12:52 PM, fausete said:

we recommend to have an option called 'Emulation of effects of stick forces on aircraft behaviour' checked. This option limits the range of pitch inputs of the joystick as a function of stick feedback force, emulating in a way how a pilot would pull a bit less on the stick in certain situations.

In case you don't have any force sensing joystick in your team, I want to report that this option works beautifully with one. The controls feel a lot heavier since I'm actually needing significantly more physical force to maneuver.

Also taking the opportunity to give this type of joystick technology some visibility.

[fausete]

Thanks!

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Wings being ripped off is becoming a problem. A chronic one. A terrain avoidance maneuver, a snap roll, and a wing comes off.

[fausete]

Hi, can you post a trk if you believe it is a bug?

[Hiob]

9 hours ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

Wings being ripped off is becoming a problem. A chronic one. A terrain avoidance maneuver, a snap roll, and a wing comes off.

Have you checked the "emulate stick forces" option in the special options tab?

[DmitriKozlowsky]

3 hours ago, Hiob said:

Have you checked the "emulate stick forces" option in the special options tab?

Yes.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

6.5G appears to be, at this time, a practical G limit , with slick airframe with 2 X AIM-9 or R550, 70% fuel internal, and full guns.

[Hiob]

12 minutes ago, DmitriKozlowsky said:

6.5G appears to be, at this time, a practical G limit , with slick airframe with 2 X AIM-9 or R550, 70% fuel internal, and full guns.

Try higher speeds and a descending spiral, you should be able to reach up to 8-9 G (momentarily, not sustained)…..

[fausete]

hace 17 minutos, DmitriKozlowsky dijo:

6.5G appears to be, at this time, a practical G limit , with slick airframe with 2 X AIM-9 or R550, 70% fuel internal, and full guns.

This is not an intended behaviour, can you post a trk, please?

[DmitriKozlowsky]

Above 6.5G to 7G , in my hands, airframe comes apart. Specifically, either of the wings comes off, and aircraft goes into flaming spiral spin. EJECT EJECT EJECT time. Obviously, since I am not in the pit, I cant feel the G. I have to look at G meter and AOA indexer on sides of HUD. The whole pit reminds of me of mid 1980's BBC Jaguar doc that shows similar crazy pit with kit all over the place. Not that Americans were much better in 1970's with their pits. F-4E and F-14 are just shocked chock full of various bricka brack. Sovs were even worse. Not until F-15 ,16, and 18 that pits became pilot friendlier.

[DmitriKozlowsky]

There is no landing braking parachute? How odd for a European airframe. However I love the beefy landing gear. Looks like it can land on rough, like Jaguar. I hope AERGES considers SEPECAT Jaguar. According to various BBC docs it was difficult aircraft to qual in. Second only to Harrier. But Europeans and Brits loved it. Becouse it could bomb so accurately at low level. Which is what NATO needed for Europe in 1970's and 1980's.