RWR launch warning

[diditopgun]

Hi !

SA-2 and SA-3 = RWR launch warning when firing at me.

Mig-29A with R-27R = No RWR launch warning when firing its Fox1 at me.

Is it an intended RWR behaviour ?

[Bladigan]

Same here, no audio launch warning when the missile is fired by an aircraft (not tested in case of SAM missile).

Is there any way to activate it? It sounds weird that even Jester do not warning us about it.

Edited May 27, 2024 by Bladigan

[LizardKingYB]

Looks like bug, too many times was quiet.

[Zabuzard]

The RWR has no missile launch warnings. It might detect the missile as separate "unknown" emitter, show it and play a "new threat" sound. But thats about it.

Jester will only warn you if he can visually see the missile (which requires visual smoke and similar stuff)

[Bladigan]

3 hours ago, Zabuzard said:

The RWR has no missile launch warnings. It might detect the missile as separate "unknown" emitter, show it and play a "new threat" sound. But thats about it.

Jester will only warn you if he can visually see the missile (which requires visual smoke and similar stuff)

Oh, good to know, thanks.

And I assume it has also no radar lock warning, is it correct?

EDIT: It would be surprising in case of F-4 rwr does not have this capability (I mean radar lock warning) when MiG-21 does on his primitive rwr or even MiG-19 for rear aspect.

Edited May 27, 2024 by Bladigan

[diditopgun]

8 hours ago, Zabuzard said:

The RWR has no missile launch warnings. It might detect the missile as separate "unknown" emitter, show it and play a "new threat" sound. But thats about it.

Jester will only warn you if he can visually see the missile (which requires visual smoke and similar stuff)

Ok, after reading again the manual, I understand that "LAUNCH" and "ACT/PWR" buttons on the ALR-46 control panel are only for SAM guidance commands and not airborne radar guidance commands. Am I correct ?

About the Unkown function neither R-27R or R-77 (I had hope for this one because of its own active radar) show an U on the screen. (I test both unknown button positons)

The manual says "The default condition of the Unknown button is with the U symbol illuminated, but steady." but it's currently the opposite in game.

Air to air is gonna be a nightmare... 

[Bladigan]

I can confirm warning lights and sound when missile is fired from a SAM but no lights, no sound when fired from an aircraft.

From what Zabuzard said I suppose it is intended and real but it sounds strange the rwr can detect some missiles but not others.

It is also strange it cannot detect if someone is locking you.

It will be hard to face MiGs or Mirage F1s who have these abilities.

[Hog_driver]

6 minutes ago, Bladigan said:

... it sounds strange the rwr can detect some missiles but not others.

 

But RWR does not detect missiles 'as such', only active radar emitters. So it won't detect, for instance, IR-guided missiles.

[Bladigan]

50 minutes ago, Hog_driver said:

But RWR does not detect missiles 'as such', only active radar emitters. So it won't detect, for instance, IR-guided missiles.

Of course, I have tested it when SA-6 missiles and MiG-29 missiles (R-27R).

Both radar missiles. RWR warn me about the SA-6 ones but do not about R-27R.

[Hog_driver]

7 minutes ago, Bladigan said:

Both radar missiles. RWR warn me about the SA-6 ones but do not about R-27R.

Both the SA-6 and R-27R are semi-active radar homed missiles, so you are warned that the enemy radar is locked-on on you.

But as far as I know, the SA-6 missile is command-guided in the initial phase of flight, so I guess it's the command guidance channel that is detected and interpreted as launch.

[Bladigan]

4 minutes ago, Hog_driver said:

Both the SA-6 and R-27R are semi-active radar homed missiles, so you are warned that the enemy radar is locked-on on you.

But as far as I know, the SA-6 missile is command-guided in the initial phase of flight, so I guess it's the command guidance channel that is detected and interpreted as launch.

And R-27R is not command-guided too?

[Hog_driver]

1 minute ago, Bladigan said:

And R-27R is not command-guided too?

As far as I know, it isn't. It flies toward a target that is 'illuminated' by the launching fighter's (MiG-29's) radar.

[JNelson]

On 5/27/2024 at 10:32 AM, Zabuzard said:

The RWR has no missile launch warnings. It might detect the missile as separate "unknown" emitter, show it and play a "new threat" sound. But thats about it.

Jester will only warn you if he can visually see the missile (which requires visual smoke and similar stuff)

Hey everyone just to clear up some confusion here. Unfortunately Zabuzard was slightly incorrect here.

The ALR-46 has a separate set of electronics for detecting C and D band guidance commands that which are commonly found on soviet SAM systems. These signals can be detected and correlated with a threat to give you a launch warning, or warn if there is launch related activity. 

The RWR can also indicate PRF (Pulse Repetition Frequency) changes which occur during search/tracking changes. These will be indicated by the new guy audio which plays 3 short beeps at the PRF of the emitter. A diamond is also shown around the new guy producing the new guy audio. Currently the new guy audio is bugged and not displaying the diamond and the audio being played is wrong, these will be fixed in patches soon.

Lastly the RWR can categorise known active missile threats, these will be displayed and trigger a launch warning - currently this feature is in testing but not in the public version.

Thanks, Hopefully that is clearer.

[skywalker22]

9 hours ago, JNelson said:

Hey everyone just to clear up some confusion here. Unfortunately Zabuzard was slightly incorrect here.

The ALR-46 has a separate set of electronics for detecting C and D band guidance commands that which are commonly found on soviet SAM systems. These signals can be detected and correlated with a threat to give you a launch warning, or warn if there is launch related activity. 

The RWR can also indicate PRF (Pulse Repetition Frequency) changes which occur during search/tracking changes. These will be indicated by the new guy audio which plays 3 short beeps at the PRF of the emitter. A diamond is also shown around the new guy producing the new guy audio. Currently the new guy audio is bugged and not displaying the diamond and the audio being played is wrong, these will be fixed in patches soon.

Lastly the RWR can categorise known active missile threats, these will be displayed and trigger a launch warning - currently this feature is in testing but not in the public version.

Thanks, Hopefully that is clearer.

So is it indeed true that the RWR AN/ALR-46 can't detect the airbrne radar in track mode? I find it very strange, that it cannot distinguish between search and track mode. 

And why is there anyothe button "Activity Power", in the manual it says it has similar functions to Missile Launch button, but nothing more. So we have two "warning buttons" for SAM launch? Which at least means RWR can detect ground radars (like SAMs) in search and track mode.

 

[JNelson]

On 5/29/2024 at 9:12 AM, skywalker22 said:

So is it indeed true that the RWR AN/ALR-46 can't detect the airbrne radar in track mode? I find it very strange, that it cannot distinguish between search and track mode. 

And why is there anyothe button "Activity Power", in the manual it says it has similar functions to Missile Launch button, but nothing more. So we have two "warning buttons" for SAM launch? Which at least means RWR can detect ground radars (like SAMs) in search and track mode.

 

The RWR specifically indicates PRF changes, in DCS this will indicate a change from search to lock or vice versa, specifically the new guy audio as mentioned in my previous comment.

The activity light shows if there is a SAM producing launch related signals, if the RWR thinks these are for you, then it will also give you a launch warning.

[skywalker22]

3 hours ago, JNelson said:

The RWR specifically indicates PRF changes, in DCS this will indicate a change from search to lock or vice versa, specifically the new guy audio as mentioned in my previous comment.

The activity light shows if there is a SAM producing launch related signals, if the RWR thinks these are for you, then it will also give you a launch warning.

Sorry, but you didn't answer to my question directly, will there be any indication on the RWR when the airborne radar is in track mode (or we can say lock)? Because now it is not. There is no indication when a Sparrow starts flying towards you.

[Rosly]

Not directly related to technical side of the topic, but as electronic engineer I'm glad that Heatblur with their detailed analysis of Radar and RWR systems (maybe unintentionally) opened some eyes of DCS players about how unreliable the abilities of early RWR was. 

The current implementation of RWR in Mig-21, 19 and even 29 don't even bother about frequency band, PRF range, signal power and ability to track dozen of missile guidance techniques. Those simply take game object position (missile or plane) and give you "missile launch"

I hope this will start a healthy discussion and hopefully some rework of existing RWRs as currently they are silly and OP in regards to F-4. Imagine fighting with Mig-21 on MP which is able to give clear launch indication for all missile types, including those which was not even existing in times of design of it's RWR. Those mig-line RWRs are analog and require set of antenas, amplifier, filter and discriminator circuits to detect each and every search, tracking and guidance radar systems. Instead those uber-RWRs see and understand everything in the game, even they are just half of dozen cathode ray tubes with 4 light bulbs wired together xD

Ps: Heatblur, you are true hero's in my eyes by rising the simulator quality bar to new level's. Your job is amazing for all those EE folks which beg ED for so long to stop threatening electric warfare in DCS as silly topic.

Edited May 31, 2024 by Rosly

[Tango3B]

On 5/29/2024 at 12:09 AM, JNelson said:

Hey everyone just to clear up some confusion here. Unfortunately Zabuzard was slightly incorrect here.

The ALR-46 has a separate set of electronics for detecting C and D band guidance commands that which are commonly found on soviet SAM systems. These signals can be detected and correlated with a threat to give you a launch warning, or warn if there is launch related activity. 

The RWR can also indicate PRF (Pulse Repetition Frequency) changes which occur during search/tracking changes. These will be indicated by the new guy audio which plays 3 short beeps at the PRF of the emitter. A diamond is also shown around the new guy producing the new guy audio. Currently the new guy audio is bugged and not displaying the diamond and the audio being played is wrong, these will be fixed in patches soon.

Lastly the RWR can categorise known active missile threats, these will be displayed and trigger a launch warning - currently this feature is in testing but not in the public version.

Thanks, Hopefully that is clearer.

@JNelson Shouldn’t there also be a circle around the threat emitter guiding a missile on you? Especially, a circle around threat emitters guiding a Fox1? Isn’t this mentioned somewhere in the corresponding description of the ALR-46? I’m pretty sure the description mentions this very circle. Your thoughts on that, JNelson?

[Stickler]

Just to confirm, as soon as the RWR is patched the LAUNCH button functionality will also be implemented?

Radar Warning Receiver - Heatblur F-4E Phantom II

"In the event a missile launch is detected by way of discrete SAM guidance commands being received, the MISSILE LAUNCH indications in this button (4) will illuminate, and a circle is superimposed around the threat emitter defined as guiding the inbound weapon. Pressing the button while illuminated will provide launch audio through the intercom."

If the LAUNCH button is meant to be able to be pressed once the patch is out, I recommend to also add a key binding for that button which currently does not exist.

[IRRE_Schwarzy]

I have no missile alarme warning with Sa10, is it normal ? Is it because F4E is previous than this SAM ?
Only Sa2, Sa3, Sa6 seem to give an alarm warning for missile launch

[Grundar]

On 7/3/2024 at 9:57 AM, IRRE_Schwarzy said:

I have no missile alarme warning with Sa10, is it normal ? Is it because F4E is previous than this SAM ?
Only Sa2, Sa3, Sa6 seem to give an alarm warning for missile launch

I think you have to label the SA-10 as "Unknown", as it isn't part of the standard RWR display for that time period I think.  There is a button (and binding) available to show an Unknown RWR contact, so i you press that button it should display those contacts also listed as unknown - will default to a U symbol on the RWR.  I'm not sure if core DCS functionality allows a SAM to launch in modes that don't require a direct active lock on the target.  I would love to see RWR as a core functionality of DCS become more representative of the time and less of a Gods eye view of the whole shebang.

 

Edit: SA-10 has a display icon, the 13 doesn't appear to and will be displayed as U when unknown is selected.

Edited July 5, 2024 by Grundar
confused sa-10 with sa-13

[Zabuzard]

On 7/3/2024 at 1:57 AM, IRRE_Schwarzy said:

I have no missile alarme warning with Sa10, is it normal ? Is it because F4E is previous than this SAM ?

The SA-10 seems to behave as expected. Depending on how you have set up the site, you can click the SEARCH mode on the RWR and see its search radar platforms. You can further click HANDOFF and hear their high pitched PRFs (20k for the Clam Shell and 50k for the Big Bird).

When the site launches, the Flap Lid radar goes active. This is recognized by the RWR and shown as symbol 10 on the screen. Remember that the SA-10 guides using TVM, so it does not require constant illumination neither changing the PRF in any way that would be directly recognizable.

The moment you see the 10 symbol on your RWR (even if the symbol disappears again after), the site likely just launched a missile at you. If you are in handoff mode, you will hear an even higher pitched sound representing the 100k PRF of the Flap Lid radar.

Edited July 4, 2024 by Zabuzard

[JNelson]

On 6/4/2024 at 1:16 PM, Tango3B said:

@JNelson Shouldn’t there also be a circle around the threat emitter guiding a missile on you? Especially, a circle around threat emitters guiding a Fox1? Isn’t this mentioned somewhere in the corresponding description of the ALR-46? I’m pretty sure the description mentions this very circle. Your thoughts on that, JNelson?

The circle is related to the launch/activity warning system and is only present for C/D band threat at current, although when we add active missile radars it will likely also trigger with these threads if correlated correctly.